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Bharring wrote:
Jaxler,
Moar serioser now, ASM and Scions do very different jobs. ASM are bullies. Scions are podded threats. ASM typically can't make their charge on the turn the deepstrike, and so usually need to maneuver into position. But with 12" movement, can. Unfortunately, their current ppm makes them far to expensive for what they do. And so many other things do it better.

To better see the difference, consider what happens when Scions get to do their thing, but to a unit it can't kill, vs what happens with ASM. If you're shooting at a Rhino or a Tac Squad or a Reaper squad, Scions do their damage, then the target does it's thing. With ASM, once they get in, they might not do much damage. But the target needs to fall back. Which means no shooting (unless Fly or a stratagem or whatever).

They suck at their job. It’s a job that takes until turn three to achieve. Also explain why scions don’t tie down just as well? For 100 points for 10 scions vs 80 for assault marines you can attempt to charge from deep strike, obstruct movement and get the same number of attacks at 1 less str. You’ve 10 wounds though, vs 5.

Turn 2, no packs, get em in a Rhino and Advance it forward. Turn 1 if your using them to run interference or intercepting infiltrators. Turn 2 for threatening backfield via Deep Strike, "deal with me or I'll charge your artillery" stuff.

Do people realise they're arguing for Ork Boyz to be able to:
- deepstrike
- benefit from chapter tactics
- move 12"
- have a 3+ save
- shoot on a 3+
That's ridiculous and everyone even thinking to agree with the statement should be barred from any game design discussions, ever.

Fix assault so it isn't so reliant on hordes of bodies prevent units from falling back,
Fix assault so that the majority of wargear isnt useless,
Fix assault so that the only viable method is deepstrike delivery.

Raise point costs on all units so that a single point doesn't represent a TOTAL change in stat block, 1 point for a 3+ save? Getouttahere.

Make it apparent that certain armies have cheaper and easier access to more things, marines get armor and wargear, orks get bodies and assault, eldar get invulnerable saves and movement etc etc.

Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Advance and charge with warboss. And assault marines have beefier shooty weapons than bolt pistol.

But you missed 3+ save, 12" move and deep strike none that boyz have. Those are worth way more than +1A so having assault marines same cost as boyz or even cheaper would be ridiculous.

Assault marines are overpriced yes but not THAT much overpriced. If assault marines would go to 5-6 pts where would ork boyz go? 2 pts? Grots would then need X for Y or like 0.5 pts as there's no full point that would be reasonable price! And overall game would go to wrong direction with everything going cheaper making things harder to balance as there's no depth in bottom scales. Difference between 3 pts and 4 pts model is lot bigger than 15 pts or 16 pts.

I'd argue a normal Space Marine could be around 10 points as they are now. So Assault Marines could similarly drop at least 3 points per model. Wouldn't make them amazing, but they'd be a little less gak.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

I'd gladly change 1 attack for all of the above. I think you're missing just how good a 6pt assault marine would be; not to mention their 'Gak gun' would now be a 30+ S4 shots hitting on 3's.

There are certain people who posted "yes pls" earlier in this thread that were complaining Ork Boyz were busted a few months back, and yet they are fine with this? Utter madness.

This edition puts Space Marine players in a state of transition, what with regular marines and Primaris side by side. I expect stat lines will develop to be more Primaris orientated, if their little brothers don't get phased out all together. Then we'll finally have all tactical and assault marines etc being as tough and as capable as they're portrayed in the canon.

Sounds fair, since it would mean my beloved storm guardians become -5 points per model (yes, negative 5, not 7-5). Infinite eldar horde of doom, you asked for it!

This post is clearly troll material, but there is some merit in this discussion (relatively, we are on dakka after all...)

I agree with Xeno here, the real cost of a tac marine should be 10 points, same for assault marines without packs. They should then have cheaper access to melee weapons, they have only 1 attack base, they cannot pay 22 points for a power fist with a bit better AP!

If they could take eviscerators for 8 points and flamers and plasma pistols for 5, they would be decent (not strong, decent) and help to fill that glaring hole which is the marine's assault phase.

I feel like a lot of MEQ (not only the rines ones) should go down in price or need adjustments.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Advance and charge with warboss. And assault marines have beefier shooty weapons than bolt pistol.

But you missed 3+ save, 12" move and deep strike none that boyz have. Those are worth way more than +1A so having assault marines same cost as boyz or even cheaper would be ridiculous.

Assault marines are overpriced yes but not THAT much overpriced. If assault marines would go to 5-6 pts where would ork boyz go? 2 pts? Grots would then need X for Y or like 0.5 pts as there's no full point that would be reasonable price! And overall game would go to wrong direction with everything going cheaper making things harder to balance as there's no depth in bottom scales. Difference between 3 pts and 4 pts model is lot bigger than 15 pts or 16 pts.

Beefier shooting weapons? You mean FLAMERS? I had to laugh.

Also Deep Strike is a bad idea when you can't shoot with those super beefy Flamers and have a 28% chance to make a charge without being Black Templars.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Advance and charge with warboss. And assault marines have beefier shooty weapons than bolt pistol.

But you missed 3+ save, 12" move and deep strike none that boyz have. Those are worth way more than +1A so having assault marines same cost as boyz or even cheaper would be ridiculous.

Assault marines are overpriced yes but not THAT much overpriced. If assault marines would go to 5-6 pts where would ork boyz go? 2 pts? Grots would then need X for Y or like 0.5 pts as there's no full point that would be reasonable price! And overall game would go to wrong direction with everything going cheaper making things harder to balance as there's no depth in bottom scales. Difference between 3 pts and 4 pts model is lot bigger than 15 pts or 16 pts.

Beefier shooting weapons? You mean FLAMERS? I had to laugh.

Also Deep Strike is a bad idea when you can't shoot with those super beefy Flamers and have a 28% chance to make a charge without being Black Templars.

Plasma pistol , plasma gun, melta gun(or indeed melta pistol) beefy enough for you?

But you REALLY think that +1 A orks have is worth 3+ save, 12" move, BS3+ in a model that would cost less than said ork boy?

Martel732 wrote:
That's what they're REALLY worth, but no one will admit it.

That might be because people were winning tournaments spamming Stormboyz earlier in the edition, and they cost more than that with a 6+ save and 5+BS...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Orks can advance and charge due to the Warboss aura buff.

Say, Cult of Marines Suck, how do you feel about marine units being costed based on being in various character buffing auras?

Don't you guys hate that?

Reducing the points just seems like the way to perpetuate a race to the bottom. I’d much rather see Classic Marines base statline get a boost – 2 attacks base seems reasonable, and something allowing additional shots with Bolt weapons. The former in particular helps out Assault Marines – 50% improvement in effectiveness if you have a chainsword, and you’re not mugging yourself off so badly if you take a flamer or eviscerator either. No doubt some people will claim “there’s no point to S4 attacks at all” or some such, but these tweaks would put Assault Squads somewhere around where they should be positioned, I reckon,

I'd be so excited if this change goes through. 4PPM SERAPHIM here we come!

Sororitas stronk, being cheaper marines.

I know this is a satire post BUT. At least present it correctly - OP is suggesting 8-9 point assault marines with a base cost of 6.

Let me ask you. Have you seen a (tazngor)? TS goatmen?

They have the same relevant stats except for armor save (which is instead a 5++ save)
ws3+ T4 Str4 A1

And they have a +1 attack ap-1 blade. They cost 7 points.

Everyone here seems to think this 3+ is worth 6 points ON TOP OF a 5++ (which is most cases is as good as a 3+ save through the game) ESP when you can make it a 4++ with a psychic power.

This post really is funny because many of you think it's like suggesting 1 point gaurdsmen. No - it's actually in the same realm as IG infantry staying 4ppm.

Bharring wrote:
You don't take ASM to krump sum'un. You take ASM to blindside someone. Charge that tank. Surround and charge from behind while your tacs charge from the front (good luck falling back from that). Pressure them to support their flanks or backfield.

ASM don't need to kill anything. They need to charge into CC against non-CC units, and not die too easily. They just cost too much right now to do that.

Points aside - this guy gets it.

For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Martel732 wrote:
For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Hey, good thing they have Fly with Jump Packs, so you'd have to literally surround everything important in base-to-base to stop that, yeah?

Just end this thread, 6 point assault marines is ridiculous.

They would just walk their marines across the table and win every game against me. They could literally take only assault marines, jump pack captains, and librarians on bikes, and win every game against me.

I mean seriously, 3 maxed out spearheads gets you 180 assault marines, 3 captains with jump packs, for under 1500 points. You could take Azrael with them and they'd all have 4++.

The only reason Orks aren't crushing literally everyone is because their dudes have a 6+ save. And even then, a proper Green Tide is hard to deal with, it's just a matter of time constraints, and the fact that volume shooting exists (hello, baneblade variants, for ex).

They are far superior to a 6 point unit.

Match up an assault marine versus a Gargoyle. (6 points). You win every time.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Hey, good thing they have Fly with Jump Packs, so you'd have to literally surround everything important in base-to-base to stop that, yeah?

No, just create spaces where the unit can't legally fit. My opponents did it all the time until I quit using BA jump units.

No, they shouldn't be 6 ppm base. But they play real close to that in practice.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Hey, good thing they have Fly with Jump Packs, so you'd have to literally surround everything important in base-to-base to stop that, yeah?

No, just create spaces where the unit can't legally fit. My opponents did it all the time until I quit using BA jump units.

Multicharge? I mean, it'd be pretty damn hard to make it so you cannot legally fit next to, say, a Leman Russ without having two or three squads of Guardsmen in B2B.

Edit: Got any pics of what it's like? That might help us understand.

No, but it's mostly just spacing tricks. They position squads to keep the ASM in front of them, so a full move of 12" would render some of the ASM standing on top of guardsmen. The tank can be further back. It's stuipd simple to create a DS-proof IG DZ.

Because movement is before shooting, they hose up my move with their previous turn's movement. I do this all the time now with my own guardsmen.

Remember, assaulting the guardsmen means the IG wins. So they just make sure that's the only choice.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Hey, good thing they have Fly with Jump Packs, so you'd have to literally surround everything important in base-to-base to stop that, yeah?

No, just create spaces where the unit can't legally fit. My opponents did it all the time until I quit using BA jump units.

Multicharge? I mean, it'd be pretty damn hard to make it so you cannot legally fit next to, say, a Leman Russ without having two or three squads of Guardsmen in B2B.

Edit: Got any pics of what it's like? That might help us understand.

You can only legally charge things within 12", pile in must be closer to the nearest model, and you must maintain coherency after a charge.

I'd still like to see how this is happening. I understand it could be a tough charge, but without literal buckets of Guardsmen or other screens, I'm failing to see how it'd be IMPOSSIBLE.

I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

It's functionally impossible, because if I choose to move less distance to set up a jump OVER them on the next turn, I get FRFSFed, and then they charge ME, preventing a charge the next turn.

Just think about moving your guardsmen up to about 11-13" away from the ASM and stopping there. That's all it takes to ruin any jump unit.

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

And 120 Guardsmen cover, at near max coherency...

About 30 2" squares, or around 120 square inches. Considering most DZs are either 4'x2' or 6'x1', that's 1,152 square inches or 864 square inches. They are not blanketing the entire DZ. If they choose to castle and body-block everything, use LoS blocking terrain and whatnot to help win on objectives.

They don't need to blanket it. They only need to make DS impossible and occupy the narrow strip of possible movement choices for ASM moving forward.

Can't win on objectives when I'm tabled by cheap IG artillery.

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.