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There are good reasons for some armies to take blobs. 20 necron warrior blobs backed up by a cryptek's 5++ save and MWBD are damn hard to totally wipe out so they get their RP rolls, and the +1 shooting helps a lot.

Chaos cultists can respawn a 40 cultist blob with tide of traitors, now only once but still it's 40 new soldiers at the drop of a strategem card.

A deep striking chaos character can summon a daemonbomb in the most inconvenient of places...

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
There are good reasons for some armies to take blobs. 20 necron warrior blobs backed up by a cryptek's 5++ save and MWBD are damn hard to totally wipe out so they get their RP rolls, and the +1 shooting helps a lot.

Chaos cultists can respawn a 40 cultist blob with tide of traitors, now only once but still it's 40 new soldiers at the drop of a strategem card.

A deep striking chaos character can summon a daemonbomb in the most inconvenient of places...

All of which are very useful things in a game of 30k.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
There are good reasons for some armies to take blobs. 20 necron warrior blobs backed up by a cryptek's 5++ save and MWBD are damn hard to totally wipe out so they get their RP rolls, and the +1 shooting helps a lot.

Chaos cultists can respawn a 40 cultist blob with tide of traitors, now only once but still it's 40 new soldiers at the drop of a strategem card.

A deep striking chaos character can summon a daemonbomb in the most inconvenient of places...

Wrong forum?

To be fair the "there are good reasons for some armies to take blobs" bit is relevant; Cults & Militia can run huge blobs of dirt-cheap T4 abhumans, Secutarii get tougher the more of them you have in a squad, and Lacyraemarta support can render Adsecularii amusingly durable in large squads (especially with the Rite of Pure Thought keeping them Morale-immune), it's just that this thread is more about "why does nobody use 20-man footslogging Legion Tacticals?" than anything else.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
To be fair the "there are good reasons for some armies to take blobs" bit is relevant; Cults & Militia can run huge blobs of dirt-cheap T4 abhumans, Secutarii get tougher the more of them you have in a squad, and Lacyraemarta support can render Adsecularii amusingly durable in large squads (especially with the Rite of Pure Thought keeping them Morale-immune), it's just that this thread is more about "why does nobody use 20-man footslogging Legion Tacticals?" than anything else.

You think most battles in the Heresy didn’t have any bolter armed tactical marines? They are supposed to be the rank and file. Every army should be 70 percent troops. Not two squads of ten guys in rhinos. At the end of the day Iam playing the game to recreate the Battle of the Horus Heresy that I read about. Iam absolutely not doing it to play against the same parking lot and army of ninja Iam always fighting.

So you’re saying that it’s reasonable that lining up your army against an opponent should be suicidal unless you’ve taken transports or have outflank? I can still remember games of 3rd where you could just run up the board and bash people in with a few chainsword. Even if you got shot to pieces they were still fun. But apparently it’s more strategic to roll a dice and teleport magically wherever you want to go or pay for a rhino. It really is the thinking mans game to wonder where to drop a quad phos barrage. If firepower makes that sort of gameplay impossible, or the map is too big to make it work, or movement too slow then something is really wrong with the system and the points.

Rushign up on foot with chainswords is after all excelent example of deep strategy.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
So you’re saying that it’s reasonable that lining up your army against an opponent should be suicidal unless you’ve taken transports or have outflank?...

...How did I become a representative of the "NO EVERYTHING'S FINE GO AWAY" movement here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Rushign up on foot with chainswords is after all excelent example of deep strategy.

No, but the World Eaters exist.

tneva82 wrote:
Rushign up on foot with chainswords is after all excelent example of deep strategy.

Neither is deep strike or outflank or paying to win by loading up on artillery and Spartans. You essentially roll a dice and can teleport unit x to delete whatever they attack. It amounts to “what do I want dead”. In a friendly match, there should never be a case of being effortlessly tabled because, heaven forbid, you didn’t spend a grand on more transports.

It should be a legitimate tactic. Putting units in transports should not be mandatory and you should not be compelled to spam outflank and deep strike. It should never be at the point where deploying opposite the opponent on foot is tantamount to suicide.

For example Iam currently trying to do a Sons of Horus all terminator army. Now, that type of army should be perfectly viable outside of a tournament game. The reality is that they would never be able to cross the board. This is Forgeworld basically blackmailing you into either buying five Spartans or five Kharibdus. The alternative is to have the whole army slaughtered or being unable to physically reach its objectives. Worse they would constantly get whack a mole by every other armies deep strike out flank nonesense. That is pay to win.

It also means if you have multiple legionary armies you are very restricted in what options are available to you. There should be enough variety in that list to personalise each Legion. But the rules essentially make a swath of options and units useless. Many of which are core units such as tactical and breacher squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
So you’re saying that it’s reasonable that lining up your army against an opponent should be suicidal unless you’ve taken transports or have outflank?...

...How did I become a representative of the "NO EVERYTHING'S FINE GO AWAY" movement here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Rushign up on foot with chainswords is after all excelent example of deep strategy.

No, but the World Eaters exist.

You’re saying it’s an unreasonable complaint that I can’t use tactical squads.

The World Eaters armies I fight are fully mechanised/aerial backed up by whirlwind Scorpius and other artillery. Even the guy I’ve seen whose army comes closest to this ideal still uses mostly assault marines and takes batteries of Medusa. Even the legion that gets a flow chart of buffs to encourage spamming core infantry is still compelled to load up on transports, tanks and artillery. You know something is wrong when that’s the case.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
...You’re saying it’s an unreasonable complaint that I can’t use tactical squads...

When did I say that?

They could also have more rules that favored troops. I like that only troops can hold objectives but like others mentioned, that only applies in maybe half of games. And in the games where you get the same VP for killing a squad of Auxilia Mitilia or a Spartan, why would you take Auxilia? That needs to change for sure.

Imperial Militia are one of the good ones from that perspective - inducted levy have the "expendable" rule, which means they don't count for kill points or towards "who killed more units" objectives. Being asked to chew through 51 men with rerollable, stubborn Ld9 and not even getting a kill point out of the experience must be pretty irksome...

What really lets down the tacticals is their inability to hurt anything. Boltgun is just a useless weapon in environment where everything is 3+ or better.
The solution is simple, let them take special weapons (1 in 5), so they can actually do something.
You can argue, that there will be not much point to take veterans then. So let the veterans take twice as many (2 in 5).
Or just let tactiacls take specials 1 in 10.
Problem solved.

Then we have the breachers. Frankly, they are utter rubish. They are quite weak even in ZM and totally unusable in normal battle. They are just superoverprized tacticals. There is no point in taking them if you are not IF.
What they need is a steep price reduction and/or rules change. 6+ invul never saved anybody. Let the breacher schields work like they used to do in 40k. Reroll for amour. It would be more usefull as well as fluffy, with breachers being more survivable than tacticals, but still (unlike termies) being vulnurable to heavy weapons.

(On the side note, you know that this talking of ours is totally insignificant, as no GW/FW designer will ever read this, let alone reflect it (as GW never reflects the customer opinions), right? )

 Zub wrote:
...There is no point in taking them if you are not IF...

Not sure if it's good but stacking Raptora Cult with a Pavise Deredeo for a 4++ on Thousand Sons Breachers is at least funny.

(They already reroll armour saves against blasts/templates; I think bumping the Breacher shield to a 5++ all the time and dropping the price some would be more useful.)