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angryboy2k wrote:

I think - and this is real conjecture because I don't have casting experience, someone else should step in and comment - that it's finding experienced casters. Resin casting is supposed to be slow and labor-intensive, and judging by the crap I've received on more than one occasion it's also apparently a job that involves a bit more finesse than just dumping stuff in a mold and letting it set.

Much like how any factory line can get by with more people working a spot on the conveyor belt than operating the more complex machinery/processes; FW should be able to bring new people on without too much hassle. You need experienced casters to figure out how best to lay out the individual components in molds to reduce flaws for example, but not to mix and pour the resin/mold compounds and shove the molds in pressure pots. The former task takes hard-won experience, the latter is no more complex than working the coffee machine in Starbucks.

In other words, consistently expanding production at a reasonable speed would not be too difficult. I would suspect it's more down to warehouse and manufacturing space availability. I swear I read somewhere that they'd picked up an adjacent site at Lenton Lane recently; but I've not read anything on how it's being utilised.

This new FW change has actually driven me into the arms of the Russian and Chinese recasters. I used to exclusively buy FW product, but I've had enough of their greed.

When I can buy a Telemon dreadnought for $50 why would I entertain paying FW prices? They charge MORE than double that in the U.S. now.

 badguyshaveallthefun wrote:
This new FW change has actually driven me into the arms of the Russian and Chinese recasters. I used to exclusively buy FW product, but I've had enough of their greed.

When I can buy a Telemon dreadnought for $50 why would I entertain paying FW prices? They charge MORE than double that in the U.S. now.

I know the standard response to the recaster point is 'WE DO NOT CONDONE THIS', but there is an important cost-based issue here that FW should be taking into account.

I had the exhaust fixed on my Hyundai recently - two of the three sections are third-party bits that look the same and do the same job. The cost for branded Hyndai parts was twice as much. The mechanic gave me the option of both and I went for the third-party one because they're functionally identical. Why would I pay more? Maybe if the Hyundai parts were £10 more, I would have spent the extra, but I didn't see them as twice as good, so I didn't pay twice the price, even though they're the 'real' ones.

Like a car manufacturer and third-party parts, there's such a demand for their products that recasters are able to operate and make a profit while providing as-good products. I can't help but feel that they really should be taking this into account more. If anything, the growing presence of cheaper copies (that function just as well as their product) should force prices down - there are plenty of people who think X tank is worth $50 or $70 but not $150, and are willing to go where they can pay that. It's all very well saying 'this is a luxury good' but if more people WANT to buy the tank and don't (or go somewhere else to get it cheaper) then they've fixed the wrong price point.

Its a brand kinda thing.

You buy that Hyundai part because you know its a Hyundai part.

not because its any better or worse than a 3rd party item and even then you dont always know how reliable a 3rd party item can be outside of reviews or recommendations from your mechanic. but you almost never have to think about if a offical hyundai part will work in your hyundai vehicle.

its harder for FW considering the difference between them and 3rd party recasters is going to be QA... lol and post purchase support for defects.

but GW and FW are selling a brand.

 Desubot wrote:
Its a brand kinda thing.

but GW and FW are selling a brand.

I can't help but think that, when the intention of the product is for you to totally cover it in paint anyway, that's gonna be a harder sell.

I mean, there's a reason Calvin Klein write their name on the waistband and not on the crotch, right?




.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Its a brand kinda thing.

but GW and FW are selling a brand.

I can't help but think that, when the intention of the product is for you to totally cover it in paint anyway, that's gonna be a harder sell.

I mean, there's a reason Calvin Klein write their name on the waistband and not on the crotch, right?




.

Well i mean you know what a space marine is just like you know what brand an apple with a bite out of it is without having it spelled out

Something people seem to be ignoring: Brexit.

Stop and ask yourself why FW would be setting up overseas manufacturing right now. GW proper did this a long time ago with plastics and were able to keep prices relatively stable.

Why are the prices going up? Were people really complaining about long delivery times to the point where FW thought players would accept a price increase?

It looks like it's going to be a hard Brexit, with no trade agreements in place, where the UK suddenly does not have the same trade advantages they have enjoyed as part of the EU. FW is probably just the canary in the coal mine, GW is looking closely at how people are going to react to prices going up because they have to.

That's my guess. I don't think there's anything sinister about the move, and I don't think anyone is clamoring for delivery times to improve. It's just that the company is preparing for finances to change under a new trade agreement that's poorly defined and unlikely to favor them.

A few people have talked about activism and wanting to affect change. Put down your pitchforks, protesting economics is just spitting in the wind.

Here's why I'm so hurt about this whole thing.

Someone in the UK pays 18 GBP for a legion Cataphractii terminator special weapons set.

Being in the U.S. I pay $28 for that EXACT SAME SET.

That translates into 21.51 GBP. I pay 3.51 more for the exact same product. That's a 19.5% markup!

WHY does FW think that it's ok to charge their international customers more FOR THE EXACT SAME PRODUCT.

You can scream BREXIT and the weakening Pound all you want, but if that's TRULY the case then the UK customers should have also seen a price-rise; before this change FW was getting 18 Pounds for their Cataphractii special weapon set regardless of whether their customers were in the UK or not. Now they're getting more for the set from their international customers.

Does that adequately explain why people are so upset about this!?



EDIT: And I GUARANTEE you that if the shoe was on the other foot and the Pound was doing well there's no way in hell that FW would be lowering their prices to compensate (because that's not the real reason why they're doing this)

 badguyshaveallthefun wrote:
Here's why I'm so hurt about this whole thing.

Someone in the UK pays 18 GBP for a legion Cataphractii terminator special weapons set.

Being in the U.S. I pay $28 for that EXACT SAME SET.

That translates into 21.51 GBP. I pay 3.51 more for the exact same product. That's a 19.5% markup!

WHY does FW think that it's ok to charge their international customers more FOR THE EXACT SAME PRODUCT.

You can scream BREXIT and the weakening Pound all you want, but if that's TRULY the case then the UK customers should have also seen a price-rise; before this change FW was getting 18 Pounds for their Cataphractii special weapon set regardless of whether their customers were in the UK or not. Now they're getting more for the set from their international customers.

Does that adequately explain why people are so upset about this!?



EDIT: And I GUARANTEE you that if the shoe was on the other foot and the Pound was doing well there's no way in hell that FW would be lowering their prices to compensate (because that's not the real reason why they're doing this)

If you saw the price of Apple or Microsoft products in Britain I think your head might fall off. This I'm afraid is how business works.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Something people seem to be ignoring: Brexit.

Stop and ask yourself why FW would be setting up overseas manufacturing right now. GW proper did this a long time ago with plastics and were able to keep prices relatively stable.

They're not? Isn't it just a distribution hub?

Why are the prices going up?

It's not Brexit. Anything that devalues the pound will result in things becoming cheaper if you're buying in another currency. If you're proposing that they've done the increase preemptively to preserve the value of their product in sterling after the sterling drops (i.e. £100 becomes worth £75 of foreign cash so they've increased it to £125 to make sure they still get £100 in real terms) then that's insanity based on potentially alienating thousands of customers for something that might not happen.

It looks like it's going to be a hard Brexit, with no trade agreements in place, where the UK suddenly does not have the same trade advantages they have enjoyed as part of the EU. FW is probably just the canary in the coal mine, GW is looking closely at how people are going to react to prices going up because they have to.

Yeah, sorry, no. All ways up that doesn't work. The pound tanking will likely favor exporters, the likelihood of a no deal Brexit remains small regardless of the media's reporting and you can't have a canary that you send in after the miners have been down there for about 8 years.

That's my guess. I don't think there's anything sinister about the move, and I don't think anyone is clamoring for delivery times to improve. It's just that the company is preparing for finances to change under a new trade agreement that's poorly defined and unlikely to favor them.

No deal means WTO rules. They're very well defined. The TTIP has stalled, so there's uncertainty for the EU as far as trade goes with the EU anyway, Brexit or otherwise. Brexit actually favors a Us trade deal as it's only two parties needing agreement, as opposed to twenty odd, so resolution may actually happen quicker. If GW have the US and U.K. covered, then they're pretty much sorted.

It's not Brexit.

It's because they figure that it's a net cash positive and the number of people who'll pay the increased prices will more than offset any loss from those they lose. History says they're right.

phillv85 wrote:

If you saw the price of Apple or Microsoft products in Britain I think your head might fall off. This I'm afraid is how business works.

I feel like I more or less debunked this in another thread when I said the following:

Most people in the UK don't realize that a surprisingly large part of the reason for that is that the UK retail price includes VAT of 20%. American retail prices as advertised never include sales taxes (probably because they vary not just by state but quite often by city as well).

A Macbook Pro 13" retailing for £1249 in the UK is actually being sold for £1040.83 + VAT of £208.17.
£1040.83 = $1341.97 at today's rate - which is very close to the US price of $1299. It's only a 3.3% exchange rate difference - you wouldn't beat that by much if you were exchanging your own money to USD.

 Azreal13 wrote:

It's because they figure that it's a net cash positive and the number of people who'll pay the increased prices will more than offset any loss from those they lose. History says they're right.

Well said.

What still shocks me is the Australian market prices.

They pay:

1) The actual price (now in their currency, so likely higher)
2) The inexplicable Australian markup which they've always had on GW products.
3) They're still paying the VAT more or less since all foreign prices didn't drop that when being shifted over.
4) They're adding the new 10% import fee they now pay on all foreign goods going into Australia, etc.

I fully support any company to charge whatever they want. It just blows my mind that anyone in Australia continues to play a GW branded product.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 badguyshaveallthefun wrote:
This new FW change has actually driven me into the arms of the Russian and Chinese recasters. I used to exclusively buy FW product, but I've had enough of their greed.

When I can buy a Telemon dreadnought for $50 why would I entertain paying FW prices? They charge MORE than double that in the U.S. now.

I know the standard response to the recaster point is 'WE DO NOT CONDONE THIS', but there is an important cost-based issue here that FW should be taking into account.

I had the exhaust fixed on my Hyundai recently - two of the three sections are third-party bits that look the same and do the same job. The cost for branded Hyndai parts was twice as much. The mechanic gave me the option of both and I went for the third-party one because they're functionally identical. Why would I pay more? Maybe if the Hyundai parts were £10 more, I would have spent the extra, but I didn't see them as twice as good, so I didn't pay twice the price, even though they're the 'real' ones.

Like a car manufacturer and third-party parts, there's such a demand for their products that recasters are able to operate and make a profit while providing as-good products. I can't help but feel that they really should be taking this into account more. If anything, the growing presence of cheaper copies (that function just as well as their product) should force prices down - there are plenty of people who think X tank is worth $50 or $70 but not $150, and are willing to go where they can pay that. It's all very well saying 'this is a luxury good' but if more people WANT to buy the tank and don't (or go somewhere else to get it cheaper) then they've fixed the wrong price point.

Because X amount of people will still buy the branded products such that the branded company makes more profit than if it sold at the lower price to Y number of people - if the product has relatively inelastic reactions to price.

GW main raised prices for nearly 15 consecutive years, shedding volume to try and stand still......they remake some nostalgic lines, add a social media presence, revise their rules a bit every 6 months and bring back bundle deals on basic units for each faction and suddenly their making record profits and making more in half a year than they used to in a year. Their belief that their product is fairly price inelastic seems solid to me.

 Elbows wrote:
What still shocks me is the Australian market prices.

They pay:

1) The actual price (now in their currency, so likely higher)
2) The inexplicable Australian markup which they've always had on GW products.
3) They're still paying the VAT more or less since all foreign prices didn't drop that when being shifted over.
4) They're adding the new 10% import fee they now pay on all foreign goods going into Australia, etc.

This isn't entirely accurate. Again, we've never paid VAT on Forgeworld - their pricing up unti lthe latest website change was exclusive of VAT, with them paying the VAT for UK purchases (or at least, that's what they claimed). So if anything, the change to regional pricing should have seen an increase in EU prices as the VAT is now being included, or they're reducing their margin on EU sales.

And we don't have an 'import fee' unless the goods are worth more than $1000, at which point we pay GST. For smaller shipments, the GST is applied but we don't pay it ourselves... our government for some inexplicable reason expects foreign-based companies to pay an Australian tax in order to sell to customers in Australia, so long as they make more than $75000 a year in Australian sales. This mind-numbingly stupid idea would theoretically result in a 10% (plus whatever it's going to cost the company in administration time) price increase as they collect that tax to pass to the Australian tax office, except in cases like Amazon US who just decided that the Oz government can shove their tax and stopped selling to Australian customers.. So long story short, that GST would be rolled into the currency conversion, and so should balance out against the 20% VAT included in the UK price... so if anything, the Oz price should be slightly cheaper than the UK price, since there is less tax applicable to it.


So the end result is the same - we're paying more than we should be, for no apparent reason. But your four listed points are actually only really one and a half different things.

FW just put up their newest pre-orders.

Dark Elf Star Player in Oz is 135% the cost of buying it in the UK.

Same model.
Same factory.

Why are we paying this extra again?

Is....is....is it reasons?

Do I win £5?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is....is....is it reasons?

Do I win £5?

If you were in Australia you would win $1.77, or is it $25? I do feel for our fellow gamers around the World, the prices they are charged is shocking.

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is....is....is it reasons?

Do I win £5?

If you were in Australia you would win $1.77, or is it $25?

However much it is, you wouldn't need it, because of your amazingly high income.

 insaniak wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
What still shocks me is the Australian market prices.

They pay:

1) The actual price (now in their currency, so likely higher)
2) The inexplicable Australian markup which they've always had on GW products.
3) They're still paying the VAT more or less since all foreign prices didn't drop that when being shifted over.
4) They're adding the new 10% import fee they now pay on all foreign goods going into Australia, etc.

This isn't entirely accurate. Again, we've never paid VAT on Forgeworld - their pricing up unti lthe latest website change was exclusive of VAT, with them paying the VAT for UK purchases (or at least, that's what they claimed). So if anything, the change to regional pricing should have seen an increase in EU prices as the VAT is now being included, or they're reducing their margin on EU sales.

And we don't have an 'import fee' unless the goods are worth more than $1000, at which point we pay GST. For smaller shipments, the GST is applied but we don't pay it ourselves... our government for some inexplicable reason expects foreign-based companies to pay an Australian tax in order to sell to customers in Australia, so long as they make more than $75000 a year in Australian sales. This mind-numbingly stupid idea would theoretically result in a 10% (plus whatever it's going to cost the company in administration time) price increase as they collect that tax to pass to the Australian tax office, except in cases like Amazon US who just decided that the Oz government can shove their tax and stopped selling to Australian customers.. So long story short, that GST would be rolled into the currency conversion, and so should balance out against the 20% VAT included in the UK price... so if anything, the Oz price should be slightly cheaper than the UK price, since there is less tax applicable to it.


So the end result is the same - we're paying more than we should be, for no apparent reason. But your four listed points are actually only really one and a half different things.

They only have to apply VAT selling to other EU countries if sales are above a certain threshold, which varies from country to country (both the threshold and the %, which can be anything from 19% to 27%). IIRC thresholds are generally in the €70,000 region. Switching to local currency vs charging in £ has no effect on their VAT liability.

Hereth ends fun things management accountants get to keep track of.

Waiting for the ambitious gamers in the UK to start selling FW product at around a 5-10% markup on eBay UK instead of the 20ish% that we're being charged now direct from FW.

They could actually make a profit!

 insaniak wrote:

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is....is....is it reasons?

Do I win £5?

If you were in Australia you would win $1.77, or is it $25?

However much it is, you wouldn't need it, because of your amazingly high income.

I can literally feel the sarcasm.

I'm coming at this from a pretty different perspective to the "norm" on dakka, but as an Australian we're all feeling the pain. I've been completely out of the mainline GW games for nigh on 2 years now, playing smaller skirmish games from other companies, but earlier this year my group decided to start up Blood Bowl. We all invested a good amount of money into the game, our first Forge World order being pretty much everything they sold at the time (with the exception of the Rat Ogre, because it's awful). Every member of the group intended to buy further FW when they were released, and were just waiting for it to happen before we splurged again. Team boosters, Star Players, things we knew were coming but had to hold off on. Now, FW decided to do this stupid price increase, and guess what? We're not buying GW AT ALL. We had looked at Necromunda as another thing to play, now no more. I was waiting to buy up an entire Goblin team when the Pogoer released, now I just won't bother. I'll go buy more Batman and Malifaux models instead, at least they cost the same everywhere

Guild Ball's fun too. New edition (Season) is due in a few weeks, rules are a free download and the starter is great value. Just stay away from the Falconers Guild until they sort the production issues.