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 Karhedron wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

no reason no, but primarchs are also best if they're inspirational supermen. as for their ability to come up with things a human couldn't, of course we haven't. that's because of the "fictional military genius problem" to write a military genius when you aren't one is... rather difficult. (The only writer I've seen pull it off has been Timothy Zhan's Thrawn) our best source of the cognative superiority of the Primarchs are things like a scene in a book or two where Gulliman is reading multiple reports which would take the single attention of a person each, at speeds far faster then anyone else could read, and acting on/responding to, all that info. I can't recall seeing other primarchs definatly display this, but I think it's a fair bet they all have that level of processing power

Yes, the GW authors are (by and large) not military genii so writing characters who are is not easy.

Horus has a similar scene in "Galaxy in Flames" where he reads a book in a matter of seconds before deciding to execute the Remembrancer who wrote it.

was that Karnsky? if so it was a Poem not a book.

No, Petronella Vivar. She was working on Horus' autobiography and included his "deathbed confessions" after he was wounded on Davin. Horus decided that those thoughts belonged only in his head and no one else's.

ahh thats right.

BrianDavion wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
ATCM, don't forget that the Primarchs were also designed as the genetic roots of the Space Marine Legions. Indeed, perhaps that was their primary purpose. The creation of the Primarchs is apparently in the once-and-never-again category of technosorcery. No Primarchs, no Legions.

But that doesn't really make sense. If you could make the primarchs, you could make the space marines. If you could create the genetic code of the primarchs, then use that genetic code to make the space marines whilst the space marines are lesser than the primarch, then you could just make the space marine genetic code and make the space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Also keep in mind primarchs wheren't just superior physicaly. they where superior MENTALLY. A Primarch was an amazing general, way better then anyone else was capable of being

But there's no reason you couldn't accomplish that same mental capability without also making them super strong etc.

And really, when have we ever been shown a tactical feat by a primarch that is not something that a human could come up with? From how they've actually been depicted, most west point graduates could outplay the primarchs in a wargames scenario given equal forces.

no reason no, but primarchs are also best if they're inspirational supermen. as for their ability to come up with things a human couldn't, of course we haven't. that's because of the "fictional military genius problem" to write a military genius when you aren't one is... rather difficult. (The only writer I've seen pull it off has been Timothy Zhan's Thrawn) our best source of the cognative superiority of the Primarchs are things like a scene in a book or two where Gulliman is reading multiple reports which would take the single attention of a person each, at speeds far faster then anyone else could read, and acting on/responding to, all that info. I can't recall seeing other primarchs definatly display this, but I think it's a fair bet they all have that level of processing power

Corax in Deliverance Lost going through the autodefences maze - essentially micromanaging several dozen individual squad combats simultaneously to 'poke' the response of the maze in appropriate directions.

 Togusa wrote:
He just took it as a given that those shamans were doing something good by creating him. But how would we know that he wasn't, himself, a big Chaos ploy from the beginning to direct man down this path of ruin?

In the original fluff, the Emperor-to-be was around for several thousand years before the Chaos Gods started to become conscious and capable of deliberately influencing the material universe. So there was no reason for him to doubt his own creation. The whole War in Heaven retcon rather muffed that up, of course. This was actually quite a point of contention back in the 3rd-4th edition era. If the warp went all Chaosy 60 million years ago, then how could the shamans have created the Emperor in 8000BCE and the Chaos Gods as we know them have only started becoming conscious in Earth's mediaeval period? That was when people started wondering if the reincarnated-shamans origin of the Emperor was supposed to still be canon. GW has a long history of retconning without putting much thought in to the implications for other areas of the fluff.

I still maintain that the worst part of 40K lore is this ridiculous notion of "you can't be friends with the xenos." ... I'm saying I'd like it if it were more like Sigmar, where the xenos sometimes could work with the Imperium without the idiotic inquisition coming in and pooping all over the house while screaming "Mah Emperor!"

This was another 3rd edition retcon. Before that, the Great Crusade was specifically targeted at those xenos species that were too dangerous for humanity to coexist with, not against all xenos species. Imperial forces regularly allied with aliens, especially with the craftworld eldar against Chaos. Biel Tan and Tallarn even had a permanent alliance forged in order to keep watch over the Cursus (a big daemon gate thing buried on Tallarn). Of course, the eldar were less arrogant and xenophobic in 2nd edition fluff as well. They viewed humans more like stupid children playing with matches rather than as vermin. There was even a piece of flavour text in a GW publication (one of the Epic supplements IIRC) of that era portraying eldar as showing compassion towards human Slaanesh cultists and feeling genuine regret for being forced to kill them.

So I laugh at the people who went crazy over the Guilliman/Yvraine alliance/friendship as being too noblebright for 40K. It's nothing new, but rather a return to older fluff when things weren't quite such a grimderp flanderization.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I still maintain that the worst part of 40K lore is this ridiculous notion of "you can't be friends with the xenos." ... I'm saying I'd like it if it were more like Sigmar, where the xenos sometimes could work with the Imperium without the idiotic inquisition coming in and pooping all over the house while screaming "Mah Emperor!"

This was another 3rd edition retcon. Before that, the Great Crusade was specifically targeted at those xenos species that were too dangerous for humanity to coexist with, not against all xenos species. Imperial forces regularly allied with aliens, especially with the craftworld eldar against Chaos. Biel Tan and Tallarn even had a permanent alliance forged in order to keep watch over the Cursus (a big daemon gate thing buried on Tallarn). Of course, the eldar were less arrogant and xenophobic in 2nd edition fluff as well. They viewed humans more like stupid children playing with matches rather than as vermin. There was even a piece of flavour text in a GW publication (one of the Epic supplements IIRC) of that era portraying eldar as showing compassion towards human Slaanesh cultists and feeling genuine regret for being forced to kill them.

So I laugh at the people who went crazy over the Guilliman/Yvraine alliance/friendship as being too noblebright for 40K. It's nothing new, but rather a return to older fluff when things weren't quite such a grimderp flanderization.

That grimderp "Imperium never ever deals with anyone and kills everything" seems to be more of a product of fan circle-jerk, than something supported by the fluff.

One of my favorite bits of lore is from the 5th ed tyranid dex, where an imperial admiral leads a fleet comprised of the regions species(even a few squat ships!) against Hive fleet Jormungard.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I still maintain that the worst part of 40K lore is this ridiculous notion of "you can't be friends with the xenos." ... I'm saying I'd like it if it were more like Sigmar, where the xenos sometimes could work with the Imperium without the idiotic inquisition coming in and pooping all over the house while screaming "Mah Emperor!"

This was another 3rd edition retcon. Before that, the Great Crusade was specifically targeted at those xenos species that were too dangerous for humanity to coexist with, not against all xenos species. Imperial forces regularly allied with aliens, especially with the craftworld eldar against Chaos. Biel Tan and Tallarn even had a permanent alliance forged in order to keep watch over the Cursus (a big daemon gate thing buried on Tallarn). Of course, the eldar were less arrogant and xenophobic in 2nd edition fluff as well. They viewed humans more like stupid children playing with matches rather than as vermin. There was even a piece of flavour text in a GW publication (one of the Epic supplements IIRC) of that era portraying eldar as showing compassion towards human Slaanesh cultists and feeling genuine regret for being forced to kill them.

So I laugh at the people who went crazy over the Guilliman/Yvraine alliance/friendship as being too noblebright for 40K. It's nothing new, but rather a return to older fluff when things weren't quite such a grimderp flanderization.

That grimderp "Imperium never ever deals with anyone and kills everything" seems to be more of a product of fan circle-jerk, than something supported by the fluff.

One of my favorite bits of lore is from the 5th ed tyranid dex, where an imperial admiral leads a fleet comprised of the regions species(even a few squat ships!) against Hive fleet Jormungard.

thoughout 40k there are examples like that such as the Tau and the IoM calling a truce to redirect efforts to fighting the Tyranids, the Blood Angels and Necrons calling a truce so as to fight the Tyranids (noticing a theme here are we?) and Eldar and Humanity have cooperated against chaos. the problem is these alliances are always temporary and sometimes end badly, the space wolf codex has an example of the eldar and space wolves teaming up to fight a mutural threat, and in the aftermath when they got together for the typical post fight "we did good yeah!?" a mistranslation lead to insults being exchanged and outright war between the IoM and Eldar in the sector.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
That grimderp "Imperium never ever deals with anyone and kills everything" seems to be more of a product of fan circle-jerk, than something supported by the fluff.

The fans have certainly exaggerated it. But I still remember back in the 3rd edition era GW briefly outright banned BL authors from including xenos characters in their stories who were not antagonists/villains.

The 2nd edition Eldar codex explicitly stated that the Eldar were "more often allies than enemies of the Imperium". The 3rd edition Eldar codex changed that to "much more often enemies than allies". It was a deliberate shift between 2nd and 3rd edition fluff.

 Duskweaver wrote:

So I laugh at the people who went crazy over the Guilliman/Yvraine alliance/friendship as being too noblebright for 40K. It's nothing new, but rather a return to older fluff when things weren't quite such a grimderp flanderization.

They are allies because they both are not stupid and see a purpose in combining their efforts against a larger threat. Granted, maybe there is also a measure of honor/gratitude/debt by Guilliman for his resurrection. Editions after 2nd edition and before 8th edition took the xenophobia to grimderp levels. 8th edition seems to be scaling it back a little bit, so that different factions can at least somewhat rationally decide to ally to pursue their own survival, without it necessarily going into noblebright.

However in some of the more recent small Eldar fictional pieces by Gav Thorpe showing Yvraine, there is increasing discontent within the Ynnari and between Yvraine and the Visarch over how Yvraine seemingly is running around doing errands for Guilliman instead of pursuing the original Ynnari goals. This extends to Yvraine choosing to keep the Hand of Darkness (recovered from Mortarion) to give to Guilliman instead of handing the Hand over to the White Seers of the Black Library for destruction.

I think ultimately in the future Yvraine is going to have to show herself not a lapdog for Guilliman. IMO it should be in a way where Yvraine manipulates the Imperium and maybe Guilliman in particular to advance the Ynnari cause. Guilliman might then declare their alliance at an end and any honor debt repaid.

I feel the increased Xenphobia actually fits with the whole ‘THAT IS NOT WHAT DAD MEANT’ from Guilliman.

Yes, to some degree zero tolerance made sense immediately post-Heresy. The Imperium was badly wounded, and without that, who knows what might’ve happened?

But like all things since then, it’s become By Rote. It’s done today because it was done yesterday. There is no room for questioning. No room for ‘well, if we tried this’. It worked before, it’ll work again.

And that’s before you get into vested interest parties propagating it to continually justify their own existence.

Yet it’s never really been blanket. Which is why I find the butthurt over the Necron and Blood Angel alliance of convenience so damned funny.

They were going at it Hammer and Tongs, until a greater threat presented itself, a Tyranid invasion fleet. They briefly fought together to see off that particular threat. If they hadn’t, both would’ve lost horribly.

That the Necron Overlord (I forget who it was) decided to nick off out of respect isn’t a slight on the Blood Angels, but a demonstration of how the Necrons has been reworked in the background. That withdrawing because you’ve just decided your opponent is actually well honourable is very Necron nowadays. Especially as it was that Overlord, and not an Empire wide thing.

There is the official party line of xenophobia by the Imperium for example, but we see that there is often flouting of that by all sorts of people, from Inquisitors to Imperial Governors and so on. There is trade in alien goods on the black market and there are alien mercenaries for hire.

The grimderp came in when two sides would rather keep fighting each other even if it meant they both died to a larger threat. Sure, that can happen sometimes to show some darkness and how blinded sides can be by their own existing hatreds and pride. However when it becomes the only thing that ever happens, it becomes tiresome and stupid as the leaders of said factions are also supposedly intelligent and capable of some flexibility of thought.

The problem is GW rarely shows good examples of Eldar manipulation of the Imperium. Often times when the Imperium accuses the Eldar of being treacherous it is the idiocy of the Imperium that made things worse in the plot. The first Dawn of War is a case in point, but GW has similar plot templates. The Eldar are doing something. The humans interfere. The Eldar tell the humans not to meddle with things as there is Chaos and daemons involved. The humans/Marines don't listen and drive off the Eldar. They meddle with things and release the daemon, then go "Curse you perfidious Eldar! You tricked me!" The Eldar go Is it any wonder the Eldar think humans can't handle the truth?

Iracundus wrote:
There is the official party line of xenophobia by the Imperium for example, but we see that there is often flouting of that by all sorts of people, from Inquisitors to Imperial Governors and so on. There is trade in alien goods on the black market and there are alien mercenaries for hire.

The grimderp came in when two sides would rather keep fighting each other even if it meant they both died to a larger threat. Sure, that can happen sometimes to show some darkness and how blinded sides can be by their own existing hatreds and pride. However when it becomes the only thing that ever happens, it becomes tiresome and stupid as the leaders of said factions are also supposedly intelligent and capable of some flexibility of thought.

The problem is GW rarely shows good examples of Eldar manipulation of the Imperium. Often times when the Imperium accuses the Eldar of being treacherous it is the idiocy of the Imperium that made things worse in the plot. The first Dawn of War is a case in point, but GW has similar plot templates. The Eldar are doing something. The humans interfere. The Eldar tell the humans not to meddle with things as there is Chaos and daemons involved. The humans/Marines don't listen and drive off the Eldar. They meddle with things and release the daemon, then go "Curse you perfidious Eldar! You tricked me!" The Eldar go Is it any wonder the Eldar think humans can't handle the truth?

In fairness though 90% of the time that happens it's because the Eldar are doing there useal "sacrifice 20 billion humans and a hundred of their worlds to stop an eldar from stubbing his toe" Dawn of War 2 is a good example of this, "let's divert an Ork Waagh into the path of a Tyranids hive fleet to stop the Tyranids!" "Dude that'll get a buncha humans killed by the Orks couldn't we just I dunno, covertly pass along warning to a human with power that we know a hive fleet is coming" "nah let';s divert the Waagh! it's more complicated and likely to go wrong!"

The problem is GW's publications rarely have the time within the story/plot to show actual Eldar manipulation. Instead we get claims of what they did, with little beyond the Eldar's word that they had averted disaster. For the Eldar, the ideal success would be one where nobody is even aware the Eldar did anything at all. Unfortunately it would be hard to satisfy readers by telling the story of how battles that never happened were prevented from occurring.

Iracundus wrote:
The problem is GW's publications rarely have the time within the story/plot to show actual Eldar manipulation. Instead we get claims of what they did, with little beyond the Eldar's word that they had averted disaster. For the Eldar, the ideal success would be one where nobody is even aware the Eldar did anything at all. Unfortunately it would be hard to satisfy readers by telling the story of how battles that never happened were prevented from occurring.

While true you could still have the Eldar manipulation going off as planned and still resulting in them having to fight against a great enemy. As it is the foresight of Farseer's routinely fails them. They don't have to be able to stop any damage to the Eldar but the trope of Eldar trying to prevent something from passing only to unwittingly cause it to happen or die in droves to Space Marines is getting horribly worn.

This is kinda why I liked DOW 1 story line to DOW 2. Because while at the end of the day in 1, the space marines beat chaos with some help from the eldar, the eldar were right that the humans were to untrusting and short sighted to not end up getting played into releasing a demon.

Two's story line came off as smashed the eldar orks and tyranids and would have done it sooner if the arrogant eldar just stayed out of it.

He played god and made primarchs. That's where it all started. He thought he could shape the future as see saw fit, and he created life in order to see it done.