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 SHUPPET wrote:
Meanwhile, the faction you referenced has been stuck with this for 20 years:




Calgar has had 4 different models in that time.

Huh? There are only four miniatures for Marneus Calgar. The one from 1st edition which wasn't intended as a gaming piece, the current power armoured model which predates those Chaos models you show, the one in Terminator armour and the Primaris one that's not out yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson Fists were on the cover of the rulebook and in the intro scenario. other than that, they don't get much in the way of focus in the game; we get a box about a Dark Angels ritual, a full-page illustration of Leman Russ and lots of pictures of Marines with no recognisable markings at all.

The RTB01 Marines were Crimson Fists to match the box cover, but the first painted examples of Dreadnoughts were Blood Angels and Silver Skulls, and the first Land Speeder had Ultramarines crew. Then the Space Marine Paint Set came out and the blue Chapter chosen for that set was ... Ultramarines.

And part of my HUGE grievance with the Ultramarines comes from how they suddenly got a massive push from late RT on out. So much so that the Space Marine codex for 2nd Ed. wasn't called "Codex: Space Marines", it was called "Codex: Ultramarines". That ticked me off highly as I was well invested in the Fists as a Chapter and watched as they went from one of the 12 forefront Chapters of Marines to a sideline offshoot of the Imperial Fists. THEN I had the joyous experience, like ANYONE playing a Marine army that wasn't Wolves or the two Angels armies did, of someone seeing my force for a match and saying "Oh, you play Ultramarines!" My reply would quite rightly be "No, I play Crimson Fists. Totally different Chapter." to which the immediate retort would be "You use Codex: Ultramarines, right?" Mat Ward was kind enough to take that BS and canonize it in the 5th Ed Codex. 4th wasn't much better at fellating the UM in fluff and rule form, but 5th went full on gang bang.

The problem with ultramarines IMO is they are the everyman space marine chapter. They are not meant to excel at any particular area but be well rounded soldiers capable of adapting to most situations as the codex dictates.
And then GW started using them as the paragon chapter and gave them the biggest amount of fluff and special characters.

Case in point:
Codex Space Marines HQs:

Black Templars (3) Helbrecht and Grimaldus and The Emperor's Champion
Imperial Fists (1) Lysander
Crimson Fists (1) Pedro Kantor
Salamanders (1) Vulkan He'stan
Raven Guard (1) Kayvaan Shrike
White Scars (1) Ko'rsarro Khan

TOTAL: 8

And now Ultramarines:
Marneus Calgar
Cato Sicarius
Chaplain Cassius
Chief LIbrarian Tigurius
Sergeant Chronus
Sgt Telion

TOTAL: 6


Ultramarines have nearly as many HQs as the rest of the chapters in the codex combined....
And yet they're meant to be the everyman chapter.

 Corennus wrote:
The problem with ultramarines IMO is they are the everyman space marine chapter. They are not meant to excel at any particular area but be well rounded soldiers capable of adapting to most situations as the codex dictates.
And then GW started using them as the paragon chapter and gave them the biggest amount of fluff and special characters.

Case in point:
Codex Space Marines HQs:

Black Templars (3) Helbrecht and Grimaldus and The Emperor's Champion
Imperial Fists (1) Lysander
Crimson Fists (1) Pedro Kantor
Salamanders (1) Vulkan He'stan
Raven Guard (1) Kayvaan Shrike
White Scars (1) Ko'rsarro Khan

TOTAL: 8

And now Ultramarines:
Marneus Calgar
Cato Sicarius
Chaplain Cassius
Chief LIbrarian Tigurius
Sergeant Chronus
Sgt Telion

TOTAL: 6


Ultramarines have nearly as many HQs as the rest of the chapters in the codex combined....
And yet they're meant to be the everyman chapter.

You've got it backwards. The problem is not Ultramarine not excelling at anything in particular - they a essentially fit for any task. Which is the same way every marine chapter is/ should be. The writers of space marines went all out to create flavor where none was needed. Super soldiers that are fit for any task are already really cool. We didn't need to have super solider siege masters - all marine excel at siege. We didn't a chapter that specialize in ambush - all marines are quite capable of ambush. Do you see what I mean?

Ultras aren't an every-man chapter - they are a chapter every chapter wants to be like because they so emulate the Codex Astartes. All this "vanilla" talk has everyone confused. There is no such thing as a vanilla space marine chapter. They are all 1000 man murder machine armies. It's insulting to all space marine to look at any space marines that way.

IDK why Ultras get so much more product support. I don't think it's fair. I can only assume it's due to other stuff not selling as well.

That's why I kinda wish Chapter Tactics didn't exist: my UltraMarine-descendents aren't notably worse at executing a well crafted plan than Raven Guard. They aren't noticeably worse at beseiging a foe than IF. Just like those chapters aren't noticeably worse at using Devs to pop a vehicle, Tacs to to shoot up the contents, ASM to lead the charge, and Tacs to join them.

Fluffwise, Imperial Fists are slightly more likely to decide that a situation is appropriate for a siege than UM. Raven Guard are slightly more likely to ambush the foe than UM. But it's not like Imperial Fists never ambush anyone. It's not like Raven Guard never fight a pitched battle.

In my chapter, they study and revere *all* loyalist primarchs, and take learnings from every chapter. I'd imagine almost every chapter would.

Bharring wrote:
That's why I kinda wish Chapter Tactics didn't exist: my UltraMarine-descendents aren't notably worse at executing a well crafted plan than Raven Guard. They aren't noticeably worse at beseiging a foe than IF. Just like those chapters aren't noticeably worse at using Devs to pop a vehicle, Tacs to to shoot up the contents, ASM to lead the charge, and Tacs to join them.

Fluffwise, Imperial Fists are slightly more likely to decide that a situation is appropriate for a siege than UM. Raven Guard are slightly more likely to ambush the foe than UM. But it's not like Imperial Fists never ambush anyone. It's not like Raven Guard never fight a pitched battle.

In my chapter, they study and revere *all* loyalist primarchs, and take learnings from every chapter. I'd imagine almost every chapter would.

My thoughts exactly. I think the notable difference between chapters is how they construct their companies. Like - Crimson fists probably have more vindicators than most chapters. White scars have more bikes. DA have more Terminators. They are all equally skilled at everything though. It just has to do more with what kind of battles they are usually fighting.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Calgar has had 4 different models in that time.

Huh? There are only four miniatures for Marneus Calgar. The one from 1st edition which wasn't intended as a gaming piece, the current power armoured model which predates those Chaos models you show, the one in Terminator armour and the Primaris one that's not out yet.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
That's why I kinda wish Chapter Tactics didn't exist: my UltraMarine-descendents aren't notably worse at executing a well crafted plan than Raven Guard. They aren't noticeably worse at beseiging a foe than IF. Just like those chapters aren't noticeably worse at using Devs to pop a vehicle, Tacs to to shoot up the contents, ASM to lead the charge, and Tacs to join them.

Fluffwise, Imperial Fists are slightly more likely to decide that a situation is appropriate for a siege than UM. Raven Guard are slightly more likely to ambush the foe than UM. But it's not like Imperial Fists never ambush anyone. It's not like Raven Guard never fight a pitched battle.

In my chapter, they study and revere *all* loyalist primarchs, and take learnings from every chapter. I'd imagine almost every chapter would.

My thoughts exactly. I think the notable difference between chapters is how they construct their companies. Like - Crimson fists probably have more vindicators than most chapters. White scars have more bikes. DA have more Terminators. They are all equally skilled at everything though. It just has to do more with what kind of battles they are usually fighting.

The Iron Hands are more skilled at being made out of steel

Back in 5th, when a few of the Ultra HQs were introduced, they still had the note where it was OK to file the names off and make them your own. So instead of “generic tank guy” or “master scout” we got Chronos and Talion.

Should they have been Iron Hands and Ravengurad? Probably. But it wasn’t such a big deal before the chapter tactics system locked them in.

 Nevelon wrote:
Back in 5th, when a few of the Ultra HQs were introduced, they still had the note where it was OK to file the names off and make them your own. So instead of “generic tank guy” or “master scout” we got Chronos and Talion.

Should they have been Iron Hands and Ravengurad? Probably. But it wasn’t such a big deal before the chapter tactics system locked them in.

They couldn't have been Iron Hands

They aren't allowed to have named characters. Or their uniqueness. Or good writing.

Sir Heckington wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Back in 5th, when a few of the Ultra HQs were introduced, they still had the note where it was OK to file the names off and make them your own. So instead of “generic tank guy” or “master scout” we got Chronos and Talion.

Should they have been Iron Hands and Ravengurad? Probably. But it wasn’t such a big deal before the chapter tactics system locked them in.

They couldn't have been Iron Hands

They aren't allowed to have named characters. Or their uniqueness. Or good writing.

They exist to make Emperor's Children look tough, don't get it confused


In all honesty I really liked Ferrus's primarch book and the insight into Iron Hands culture. But it too was somehow designed to make Emperor's Children look awesome and it wasn't even set anytime near the Heresy

 SHUPPET wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Back in 5th, when a few of the Ultra HQs were introduced, they still had the note where it was OK to file the names off and make them your own. So instead of “generic tank guy” or “master scout” we got Chronos and Talion.

Should they have been Iron Hands and Ravengurad? Probably. But it wasn’t such a big deal before the chapter tactics system locked them in.

They couldn't have been Iron Hands

They aren't allowed to have named characters. Or their uniqueness. Or good writing.

They exist to make Emperor's Children look tough, don't get it confused


In all honesty I really liked Ferrus's primarch book and the insight into Iron Hands culture. But it too was somehow designed to make Emperor's Children look awesome and it wasn't even set anytime near the Heresy

I love most of their books, Iron Hands are easily my 2nd favourite legion... but their 6th supplement was a steaming pile of gak.

More on topic though, I personally like 30k ultramarines, not too much of an opinion on 40k ultramarines though, too vanilla.

 Nevelon wrote:
Back in 5th, when a few of the Ultra HQs were introduced, they still had the note where it was OK to file the names off and make them your own. So instead of “generic tank guy” or “master scout” we got Chronos and Talion.

Should they have been Iron Hands and Ravengurad? Probably. But it wasn’t such a big deal before the chapter tactics system locked them in.

Yeah. It is one thing for Ultras to have more special characters than others, than quite another for them to have special characters which steal the niche of the other chapters.

 Crimson wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Back in 5th, when a few of the Ultra HQs were introduced, they still had the note where it was OK to file the names off and make them your own. So instead of “generic tank guy” or “master scout” we got Chronos and Talion.

Should they have been Iron Hands and Ravengurad? Probably. But it wasn’t such a big deal before the chapter tactics system locked them in.

Yeah. It is one thing for Ultras to have more special characters than others, than quite another for them to have special characters which steal the niche of the other chapters.

To be fair, other chapters could poach our old ones.

Like Chaplain Cassius.

MC combi flamer? Right at home in the Salamanders
T6 FNP? The flesh is weak, lead those Iron Hands to victory.
Hellfire rounds were great when hanging with IH/CF sternguard.

 Stux wrote:
Ultramarines are the poster boy faction, so you see them the most.

Because of that popularity, there is also a counter reaction of a lot of people hating on them.

Imperial Fists are not as common, and not as hated. They're seen as somewhat boring, but they've done some pretty rad stuff in the lore.

I'll second Crimson Fists as a compromise, you don't see a huge amount of them as they're not an original Chapter but they're generally viewed pretty positively in the community.

Crimson fists? Not an original chapter?
spits water

Buddy, the crimson chins are rogue trader originals.

Yeah, Crimson Fists are the original Marine Chapter.

Just Tony wrote: 4th wasn't much better at fellating the UM in fluff and rule form, but 5th went full on gang bang.

Never go full gangbang, unless it's with a bunch of like minded people, oh wait you didnt actually mean gangbang.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Ultramarines are the poster boy faction, so you see them the most.

Because of that popularity, there is also a counter reaction of a lot of people hating on them.

Imperial Fists are not as common, and not as hated. They're seen as somewhat boring, but they've done some pretty rad stuff in the lore.

I'll second Crimson Fists as a compromise, you don't see a huge amount of them as they're not an original Chapter but they're generally viewed pretty positively in the community.

Crimson fists? Not an original chapter?
spits water

Buddy, the crimson chins are rogue trader originals.

Retcon is a harsh mistress.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Ultramarines are the poster boy faction, so you see them the most.

Because of that popularity, there is also a counter reaction of a lot of people hating on them.

Imperial Fists are not as common, and not as hated. They're seen as somewhat boring, but they've done some pretty rad stuff in the lore.

I'll second Crimson Fists as a compromise, you don't see a huge amount of them as they're not an original Chapter but they're generally viewed pretty positively in the community.

Crimson fists? Not an original chapter?
spits water

Buddy, the crimson chins are rogue trader originals.

Retcon is a harsh mistress.

You cannot retcon them out of being the original space marine chapter.

Actually, the Dark Angels were listed as the first chapter IN the Rogue Trader rulebook. The Fists were just a founding chapter back then. THAT is what was retconned.