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Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Stop shooting Lascannons into Riptides protected by shield drones. Seriously.

Go find a way to kill the drones. They aren't especially tough (T4 1W 4++ 5+++) so if you can get range and LOS you'll probably put them down with sufficient dakka.

If your army doesn't have a way to deal with units outside of LOS from your long range guns, I think that's a problem with your list building.

edit: and I should emphasize that while drones will try to stay out of LOS, that's not even always possible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 21:56:52


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Seriously it's a Ld6 unit that is one datasheet for all drones.
How are people having such difficulties eating through 12-15 drones. Not to mention saviour protocols arn't automatic.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Ice_can wrote:
Seriously it's a Ld6 unit that is one datasheet for all drones.
How are people having such difficulties eating through 12-15 drones. Not to mention saviour protocols arn't automatic.

It's a 2+ dude. It might as well be automatic.

Firewarriors have drones on their data sheets - they can take 2 drones per units regardless of the rule of 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
meleti wrote:
Stop shooting Lascannons into Riptides protected by shield drones. Seriously.

Go find a way to kill the drones. They aren't especially tough (T4 1W 4++ 5+++) so if you can get range and LOS you'll probably put them down with sufficient dakka.

If your army doesn't have a way to deal with units outside of LOS from your long range guns, I think that's a problem with your list building.

edit: and I should emphasize that while drones will try to stay out of LOS, that's not even always possible.

No one is shooting lascannons at shield drone protected riptides. People ignore them and they are just constantly blasting away with 18 shots str 6 ap-2 flat 2 damage. Probably with ignore cover and 3+ reroll 1's to hit. Plus at somepoint - you have literally nothing left to shoot. Commanders are character protected (everyones got 3 of those) - 3 riptides isn't cheap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 22:07:36


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Seriously it's a Ld6 unit that is one datasheet for all drones.
How are people having such difficulties eating through 12-15 drones. Not to mention saviour protocols arn't automatic.

It's a 2+ dude. It might as well be automatic.

Firewarriors have drones on their data sheets - they can take 2 drones per units regardless of the rule of 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
meleti wrote:
Stop shooting Lascannons into Riptides protected by shield drones. Seriously.

Go find a way to kill the drones. They aren't especially tough (T4 1W 4++ 5+++) so if you can get range and LOS you'll probably put them down with sufficient dakka.

If your army doesn't have a way to deal with units outside of LOS from your long range guns, I think that's a problem with your list building.

edit: and I should emphasize that while drones will try to stay out of LOS, that's not even always possible.

No one is shooting lascannons at shield drone protected riptides. People ignore them and they are just constantly blasting away with 18 shots str 6 ap-2 flat 2 damage. Probably with ignore cover and 3+ reroll 1's to hit. Plus at somepoint - you have literally nothing left to shoot. Commanders are character protected (everyones got 3 of those) - 3 riptides isn't cheap.

I have fluffed enough of those 2+ rolls to know they aint automatic. My list usually runs between 8 and 12 and that's still a fair chunk of points just to keep Suits alive.

My knights also seem to be able to chew through Riptides well enough.
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 Xenomancers wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Seriously it's a Ld6 unit that is one datasheet for all drones.
How are people having such difficulties eating through 12-15 drones. Not to mention saviour protocols arn't automatic.

It's a 2+ dude. It might as well be automatic.


Lol

I may as well not roll for 2+ saves either. I'm sure my opponents will be fine with it because it may as well be automatic




"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |  
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





meleti wrote:
Stop shooting Lascannons into Riptides protected by shield drones. Seriously.

Go find a way to kill the drones. They aren't especially tough (T4 1W 4++ 5+++) so if you can get range and LOS you'll probably put them down with sufficient dakka.

If your army doesn't have a way to deal with units outside of LOS from your long range guns, I think that's a problem with your list building.

edit: and I should emphasize that while drones will try to stay out of LOS, that's not even always possible.


Unless you're playing on planet bowling ball, there is plenty of terrain to hide the drones behind. In ITC the first floor of every building completely blocks LoS. Very easy for me to park my drones behind a wall and just have the riptides peeking around corners. Not every army even has tools to deal with enemies out of LoS.
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




 Toofast wrote:
meleti wrote:
Stop shooting Lascannons into Riptides protected by shield drones. Seriously.

Go find a way to kill the drones. They aren't especially tough (T4 1W 4++ 5+++) so if you can get range and LOS you'll probably put them down with sufficient dakka.

If your army doesn't have a way to deal with units outside of LOS from your long range guns, I think that's a problem with your list building.

edit: and I should emphasize that while drones will try to stay out of LOS, that's not even always possible.


Unless you're playing on planet bowling ball, there is plenty of terrain to hide the drones behind. In ITC the first floor of every building completely blocks LoS. Very easy for me to park my drones behind a wall and just have the riptides peeking around corners. Not every army even has tools to deal with enemies out of LoS.


What army are you playing? I find most armies either have enough mobility, enough indirect fire, or both.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Stormsurge needs to be cheaper too. It doesn't get SP since it isn't a battlesuit, so it just gets focused down and murdered easily by lists that are geared to handle Knights. It's not as resilient as a Knight, so it shouldn't cost more than most Knights (properly kitted).

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 Toofast wrote:
meleti wrote:
Stop shooting Lascannons into Riptides protected by shield drones. Seriously.

Go find a way to kill the drones. They aren't especially tough (T4 1W 4++ 5+++) so if you can get range and LOS you'll probably put them down with sufficient dakka.

If your army doesn't have a way to deal with units outside of LOS from your long range guns, I think that's a problem with your list building.

edit: and I should emphasize that while drones will try to stay out of LOS, that's not even always possible.


Unless you're playing on planet bowling ball, there is plenty of terrain to hide the drones behind. In ITC the first floor of every building completely blocks LoS. Very easy for me to park my drones behind a wall and just have the riptides peeking around corners. Not every army even has tools to deal with enemies out of LoS.


There's a thing called a movement phase. A traditional Tau castle won't be moving much to take advantage of ruins in your example, so out-manoeuvre them.




"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 NurglesR0T wrote:
 Toofast wrote:
meleti wrote:
Stop shooting Lascannons into Riptides protected by shield drones. Seriously.

Go find a way to kill the drones. They aren't especially tough (T4 1W 4++ 5+++) so if you can get range and LOS you'll probably put them down with sufficient dakka.

If your army doesn't have a way to deal with units outside of LOS from your long range guns, I think that's a problem with your list building.

edit: and I should emphasize that while drones will try to stay out of LOS, that's not even always possible.


Unless you're playing on planet bowling ball, there is plenty of terrain to hide the drones behind. In ITC the first floor of every building completely blocks LoS. Very easy for me to park my drones behind a wall and just have the riptides peeking around corners. Not every army even has tools to deal with enemies out of LoS.


There's a thing called a movement phase. A traditional Tau castle won't be moving much to take advantage of ruins in your example, so out-manoeuvre them.





Its dakka dakka. Tau will always be broken and unbeatable. Why should players be expected to change how they play in order to deal with a more extreme than average list?
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





I feel Tau are in a decent spot compared to other codices, but lack internal balance. Breachers are a cool concept that could use a bit of a points reduction in order to become a more attractive choice compared to Strike Teams - same goes for Kroot Carnivores. Alternatively, Strike Teams could go up by one point to address this issue.

Commanders are a bit too one-dimensional, with 4xFB and 4xCIB being the go-to loadouts for Coldstrars and Enforcers respectively. In order to shake this up a bit, I'd restrict each weapon to 2 max. and fix the horrible decision from the FAQ that HOBC can only be taken in conjunction with a Missile Pod, so Coldstars can move away from their suicide torpedo role.

Riptides are pretty strong both offensively and defensively because of Saviour Protocols and 5+ Overwatch on that HBC. Currently there is little incentive to get an Ion Accelerator on them, so a price drop might be in order here (or a drastic increase in the HBC's price - it's probably too strong at its current cost).



   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





meleti wrote:
Stop shooting Lascannons into Riptides protected by shield drones. Seriously.

Go find a way to kill the drones. They aren't especially tough (T4 1W 4++ 5+++) so if you can get range and LOS you'll probably put them down with sufficient dakka.

If your army doesn't have a way to deal with units outside of LOS from your long range guns, I think that's a problem with your list building.

edit: and I should emphasize that while drones will try to stay out of LOS, that's not even always possible.


I play both pure chaos space marine and necrons, how do you suggest I should deal with drone that are out of sight in building, 36'' away from my front line, on T1. Because T1 is when you have to kill them if you want to have a chance at killing the riptide before they inflict enough damage. They are also use to shield pathfinder character that gives markerlight shots for the whole army.

In that scenario, i'll concede that the T'au player might just might have made a very efficient list that properly use every rule to his advantage to protect key component of his army. Good for him, that's awesome. However it seems to me there is little counterplay possible here, instead of : lol just play army with ignore LoS and/or melee rush.

I'm not saying riptide or T'au at all are OP. They're not. They're a straight middle tier army with nice gimmick against people unused to playing against them. And T'au without markerlight definitly sucks. They just need to tone down the egregious bits (drones) and buff everything else to allow more kind of counterplay to savvy opponents.
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




VoidSempai wrote:
meleti wrote:
Stop shooting Lascannons into Riptides protected by shield drones. Seriously.

Go find a way to kill the drones. They aren't especially tough (T4 1W 4++ 5+++) so if you can get range and LOS you'll probably put them down with sufficient dakka.

If your army doesn't have a way to deal with units outside of LOS from your long range guns, I think that's a problem with your list building.

edit: and I should emphasize that while drones will try to stay out of LOS, that's not even always possible.


I play both pure chaos space marine and necrons, how do you suggest I should deal with drone that are out of sight in building, 36'' away from my front line, on T1. Because T1 is when you have to kill them if you want to have a chance at killing the riptide before they inflict enough damage. They are also use to shield pathfinder character that gives markerlight shots for the whole army.

In that scenario, i'll concede that the T'au player might just might have made a very efficient list that properly use every rule to his advantage to protect key component of his army. Good for him, that's awesome. However it seems to me there is little counterplay possible here, instead of : lol just play army with ignore LoS and/or melee rush.

I'm not saying riptide or T'au at all are OP. They're not. They're a straight middle tier army with nice gimmick against people unused to playing against them. And T'au without markerlight definitly sucks. They just need to tone down the egregious bits (drones) and buff everything else to allow more kind of counterplay to savvy opponents.


With Chaos, a few things:

1. If you're playing ITC house rules and can't see drones in first floor ruins, then you're probably not going to kill the drones off turn 1. That's because you're playing with a rule set created to stop people from just shooting units off the board like that. You will need to move up and assault if the terrain allows it, or just power through the drones if it doesn't. That's the ruleset, you'd have the same problem with any other unit that doesn't need LOS to function.
2. Drones can't intercept psychic powers, so psychic powers that deal mortal wounds are very effective. Clearing out other models so you can Smite works, and some of the alternatives like Tzeentch's Firestorm and Doombolt are strong too.
3. Try a Renegade Knight with double gatling. Solid unit with 12" movement, tons of range, and some very nice guns to take out drones and T3 infantry. It won't hit drones if you're playing ITC rules and they're all in a first floor ruin, but it's still a very strong unit against Tau (who incidentally hate T8).
4. You're probably not going to down 15-20 drones turn 1 and still have sufficient shooting to kill a Riptide (itself an extremely tough model). That's intentional, and it's not like you're then completely unable to beat Tau if you can't destroy 150 points of drones on your first turn of the game.

I don't think drones are egregious. They're just part of the Tau identity, just like disgustingly resilient (another exceptionally powerful rule) is for Nurgle. Like you said, Tau armies with drones and Riptides still aren't typically overcoming the other tournament armies to find themselves at the top of the pack. Unlike Chaos Soup, which is pretty solidly a top tier army.
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 BoomWolf wrote:
The entire rail lineup is pathetic and needs rework.

Crisis suits are useless.

Several systems are redundant, pointless or simply overpriced as hell.

Also, while the codex can produce some decent lists, it's pretty much a monolist with most units taking a backseat.

The silly commander system isn't helping as it rendered pretty much any character non viable as the can't really compete with coldstars ever.


I use rail in all my lists and I love it! Rail rifles on pathfinders is quite possibly my most favorite units in the codex.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Togusa wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
The entire rail lineup is pathetic and needs rework.

Crisis suits are useless.

Several systems are redundant, pointless or simply overpriced as hell.

Also, while the codex can produce some decent lists, it's pretty much a monolist with most units taking a backseat.

The silly commander system isn't helping as it rendered pretty much any character non viable as the can't really compete with coldstars ever.


I use rail in all my lists and I love it! Rail rifles on pathfinders is quite possibly my most favorite units in the codex.

It is strictly inferior to ion rifles though. You are way overpaying for the mortals on a 6. Plus - pathfinders are WAY overpointed.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Actually the pathfinders would be absurdly underpriced if they didn't have to take a markerlight each.

But yes, rail rifles are almost strictly worse than ion. And making such a squishy platform that is already a high target invest even more in guns isn't very tactical.

And that's the rifle, who is the best of the bunch. Heavy rifle are just bad and cannons are outright junk.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in de
Sister Vastly Superior




Germany - Bodensee/Ravensburg area

Big decreases for Crisis suits, railguns/rail rifles, plasma rifles, some support systems, Piranhas, Kroot Elders (which should be turned into a HQ choice), missile drones (both normal and shielded variants), sniper drones and especially Sky Rays.
-1 point for Kroot Carnivores and Pathfinders, maybe for marker drones and gun drones as well. Breachers wouldn't be too strong at 6 points but would be uncomfortably squeezed in between Fire Warriors and 5 pt.Guardsmen after CA18.
Some minor point decreases for the Devilfish, Krootox, missile turrets and all Ethereals.

Everything else is fine as it is IMO. Coldstar could use a minor price hike of 10-20 points though, right now they are too much of an autotake compared to the already very strong regular XV8 and Enforcer commanders. 30+" movement (and the ability to fire afterwards) shouldn't be that cheap on a non-flyer.

Rail Rifles need massive point decreases or should simply get the same profile as the Admech Neutron Laser at it's current price.

This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2018/12/05 20:33:34


Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer


- The saga of Hrothgar the Beastslayer 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Big decreases for Crisis suits, railguns/rail rifles, plasma rifles, some support systems, Piranhas, Kroot Elders (which should be turned into a HQ choice), missile drones (both normal and shielded variants), sniper drones and especially Sky Rays.
-1 point for Kroot Carnivores and Pathfinders, maybe for marker drones and gun drones as well. Breachers wouldn't be too strong at 6 points but would be uncomfortably squeezed in between Fire Warriors and 5 pt.Guardsmen after CA18.
Some minor point decreases for the Devilfish, Krootox, missile turrets and all Ethereals.

Everything else is fine as it is IMO. Coldstar could use a minor price hike of 10-20 points though, right now they are too much of an autotake compared to the already very strong regular XV8 and Enforcer commanders. 30+" movement (and the ability to fire afterwards) shouldn't be that cheap on a non-flyer.

Rail Rifles need massive point decreases or should even better simply get the same profile as the Admech Neutron Laser at it's current price.


sniper drones +1bs if they don't move and 14 pts per
   
 
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