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Ikol wrote:
Archons are painfully useless in the new Codex. They can't shoot, they can sort of fight, they're not durable, they don't fit in our boats and their Aura doesn't work in conjunction with our main builds - which is dudes in boats.

The primary build for a Black Heart Detachment is the WritRav Battery. That being a single Archon with the Black Heart Relic (6" re-roll wounds of 1) and 3 Ravagers.

The Archon runs around, trying to keep up with the boats and ranting about how great Vect is.

The HQ section is by far my biggest disappointment with the current DE book.

You could solve this problem by using the vastly superior flayed skull. That's what I do with my DE. Never lose with DE.

Plus archons can take basters.

So 6+++ is fine for DE, because they can take another Chapter.

6+++ is OP for CWE because they can take Alaitoc instead.

6+++ is terrible for Iron Hands, because they can't take RavenGuard.

Does that sum it up?

 Xenomancers wrote:
You could solve this problem by using the vastly superior flayed skull.

How exactly does that solve the issue of DE HQs being a load of arse?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Plus archons can take basters.

They can. But ~90pts for a single Blaster is hardly a good deal.

And given that Blasters have been confined to the Index, Archons should in no way need to take them to be worth a damn.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You could solve this problem by using the vastly superior flayed skull. That's what I do with my DE. Never lose with DE.

Plus archons can take basters.

Vastly superior? Writ of the living muse alone deals more damage than the buffed poisoned shots. Flayed skull also adds nothing to the HQs.

6+++ is good.
It adds yet another layer of defense, and is the only way to save against mortal wounds.

You aren't just taking a 6+ save, you are taking a 6+ save after your opponent rolled to hit, wound, and after saving throws. Its a 4th step to take to determine if you lost a model. It may not seem like much, but it adds up. A 6+++ is actually better than a 6++, as a 6++ can by negated by mortal wounds, and its only a 3 step process as it replaces armor saves.

Not sure how one is getting 20% increases in durability though.
I'm not saying its wrong, I just don't understand where all of the 1/6s are coming from. You only roll it once for each model, right?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
6+++ is good.
It adds yet another layer of defense, and is the only way to save against mortal wounds.

You aren't just taking a 6+ save, you are taking a 6+ save after your opponent rolled to hit, wound, and after saving throws. Its a 4th step to take to determine if you lost a model. It may not seem like much, but it adds up. A 6+++ is actually better than a 6++, as a 6++ can by negated by mortal wounds, and its only a 3 step process as it replaces armor saves.

Not sure how one is getting 20% increases in durability though.
I'm not saying its wrong, I just don't understand where all of the 1/6s are coming from. You only roll it once for each model, right?

You reach 20% because a model that saved a wound can then save another one until it fails.
So on 6 wounds you save 1, leading to an increase of 16,66% to durability, but that saved wound can now be saved again and again and again. If you math it out, this actually translates into a total of 20%.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
6+++ is good.
It adds yet another layer of defense, and is the only way to save against mortal wounds.

You aren't just taking a 6+ save, you are taking a 6+ save after your opponent rolled to hit, wound, and after saving throws. Its a 4th step to take to determine if you lost a model. It may not seem like much, but it adds up. A 6+++ is actually better than a 6++, as a 6++ can by negated by mortal wounds, and its only a 3 step process as it replaces armor saves.

Not sure how one is getting 20% increases in durability though.
I'm not saying its wrong, I just don't understand where all of the 1/6s are coming from. You only roll it once for each model, right?

6++ can be negated by mortal wounds, 6+++ can be negated by multidamage weapons.

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
6+++ is good.
It adds yet another layer of defense, and is the only way to save against mortal wounds.

You aren't just taking a 6+ save, you are taking a 6+ save after your opponent rolled to hit, wound, and after saving throws. Its a 4th step to take to determine if you lost a model. It may not seem like much, but it adds up. A 6+++ is actually better than a 6++, as a 6++ can by negated by mortal wounds, and its only a 3 step process as it replaces armor saves.

Not sure how one is getting 20% increases in durability though.
I'm not saying its wrong, I just don't understand where all of the 1/6s are coming from. You only roll it once for each model, right?

6++ can be negated by mortal wounds, 6+++ can be negated by multidamage weapons.

If your opponent is using multi-damage weapons against your infantry instead of your vehicles, then you pretty much won the trade already.
Even if he does use multi-damage weapon against vehicles, if they have a 6+++ they should be able to shrug off some of that damage without dying.

It depends on the army. Drukhari have both infantries/monsters and vehices that are appropriate targets for multidamage shots because those infantries would likely be talos or grotesques. Coven stuff competes to soak the anti tank and sometimes it's worth more killing the monsters rather than the vehicles.

I prefer 6+++ than 6++ against multidamage shots though. With 6++ it's all or notthing and apparently I don't have enough luck when it comes to roll saves for my vehicles, like some deathskulls lists I play. The 6+++ instead is a roll for each wound that goes through which means that you don't negate all the damage, just a fraction of it. IMHO negating a fraction of damage (all kind of damage) with high odds is better than negate the entire damage (not even of all kind) with very low odds.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
6+++ is good.
It adds yet another layer of defense, and is the only way to save against mortal wounds.

You aren't just taking a 6+ save, you are taking a 6+ save after your opponent rolled to hit, wound, and after saving throws. Its a 4th step to take to determine if you lost a model. It may not seem like much, but it adds up. A 6+++ is actually better than a 6++, as a 6++ can by negated by mortal wounds, and its only a 3 step process as it replaces armor saves.

Not sure how one is getting 20% increases in durability though.
I'm not saying its wrong, I just don't understand where all of the 1/6s are coming from. You only roll it once for each model, right?

6++ can be negated by mortal wounds, 6+++ can be negated by multidamage weapons.

If your opponent is using multi-damage weapons against your infantry instead of your vehicles, then you pretty much won the trade already.
Even if he does use multi-damage weapon against vehicles, if they have a 6+++ they should be able to shrug off some of that damage without dying.

We don't live in '90's anymore where only AT weapons had multi damage. And of course...When your opponent has nothing BUT infantry to target where you think those weapons are going?

But yeah let's pretend we live in world where avenger gatling cannons never shoot at infantry for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
I prefer 6+++ than 6++ against multidamage shots though. With 6++ it's all or notthing and apparently I don't have enough luck when it comes to roll saves for my vehicles, like some deathskulls lists I play. The 6+++ instead is a roll for each wound that goes through which means that you don't negate all the damage, just a fraction of it. IMHO negating a fraction of damage (all kind of damage) with high odds is better than negate the entire damage (not even of all kind) with very low odds.

If you have more wounds than the target it's irrelevant which you roll in the long run.

If you have less wounds than damage cause the 6+++ is worse.

The bigger issue with a 6++ is that it often doesn't come into effect. On say boyz - fine. They get it against AP1 and and up which will happen fairly frequently. But on say Sisters you are not benefiting from that save except versus a melta gun shot. Which is kind of niche.

Tyel wrote:
The bigger issue with a 6++ is that it often doesn't come into effect. On say boyz - fine. They get it against AP1 and and up which will happen fairly frequently. But on say Sisters you are not benefiting from that save except versus a melta gun shot. Which is kind of niche.

Same for deathskulls vehicles. That 6++ most of the times doesn't work at all since it's all or nothing. The 6+++ instead always saves a few wounds. Take a case in which some anti tank weapon causes 3-5 wounds. With a 6++ you'll probably take all the damage, with a 6+++ you'll probably save one of those wounds and since vehicles degrade, sometimes it can make some difference. It happened several times with my Black Heart vehicles. 6+++ on mobs of troops is also better than 6++ since most of the weapons that target infantries are AP- so with a 6+++ you'll roll two saves instead of one.

Spoletta wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
6+++ is good.
It adds yet another layer of defense, and is the only way to save against mortal wounds.

You aren't just taking a 6+ save, you are taking a 6+ save after your opponent rolled to hit, wound, and after saving throws. Its a 4th step to take to determine if you lost a model. It may not seem like much, but it adds up. A 6+++ is actually better than a 6++, as a 6++ can by negated by mortal wounds, and its only a 3 step process as it replaces armor saves.

Not sure how one is getting 20% increases in durability though.
I'm not saying its wrong, I just don't understand where all of the 1/6s are coming from. You only roll it once for each model, right?

You reach 20% because a model that saved a wound can then save another one until it fails.
So on 6 wounds you save 1, leading to an increase of 16,66% to durability, but that saved wound can now be saved again and again and again. If you math it out, this actually translates into a total of 20%.

The 20% number is correct, but there's a simpler explanation. If a model has 5 wounds, a 6+++ means it will take an average of 6 wounds to kill it, 6 / 5 = 1.2 = 20% increase in average firepower required to kill. It's a 20% increase in durability because a unit with a 6+++ receives 83.33% the damage it normally would, and the reciprocal of 83% is 120%.

Same applies to any other save- you can determine the average number of saves a 2+ will make by doing 0.833 + 0.833*0.833 + 0.833*0.833*0.833 + ... and so on, and it's tedious, or you can just take the reciprocal of the 0.167 failure chance (which is 6), conclude that the unit is 6 times harder to kill than one with no save, and thus has a 500% increase in durability.

Asymptotes: Not even once.

catbarf wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
6+++ is good.
It adds yet another layer of defense, and is the only way to save against mortal wounds.

You aren't just taking a 6+ save, you are taking a 6+ save after your opponent rolled to hit, wound, and after saving throws. Its a 4th step to take to determine if you lost a model. It may not seem like much, but it adds up. A 6+++ is actually better than a 6++, as a 6++ can by negated by mortal wounds, and its only a 3 step process as it replaces armor saves.

Not sure how one is getting 20% increases in durability though.
I'm not saying its wrong, I just don't understand where all of the 1/6s are coming from. You only roll it once for each model, right?

You reach 20% because a model that saved a wound can then save another one until it fails.
So on 6 wounds you save 1, leading to an increase of 16,66% to durability, but that saved wound can now be saved again and again and again. If you math it out, this actually translates into a total of 20%.

The 20% number is correct, but there's a simpler explanation. If a model has 5 wounds, a 6+++ means it will take an average of 6 wounds to kill it, 6 / 5 = 1.2 = 20% increase in average firepower required to kill. It's a 20% increase in durability because a unit with a 6+++ receives 83.33% the damage it normally would, and the reciprocal of 83% is 120%.

Same applies to any other save- you can determine the average number of saves a 2+ will make by doing 0.833 + 0.833*0.833 + 0.833*0.833*0.833 + ... and so on, and it's tedious, or you can just take the reciprocal of the 0.167 failure chance (which is 6), conclude that the unit is 6 times harder to kill than one with no save, and thus has a 500% increase in durability.

Asymptotes: Not even once.

You need 6 wounds to average an extra wound.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You need 6 wounds to average an extra wound.

We're talking saves, not like 'mortal wound on 6' abilities. A mortal wound on a roll of 6 requires 6 wounds to trigger an extra, for a 16.67% increase in firepower (7/6). Saving an inflicted wound on a 6 requires 6 wounds taken to average negating one, bumping the wounds taken down to 5, for a 16.67% reduction in damage which is a 20% increase in durability (reciprocal of 5/6).

A model with 5 wounds and a 6+++ save will, on average, take 6 wounds to actually kill. That's 20% more than it would without the save.

I like the 6+ on Leviathan nids, because with Tyrant Guard I get to double dip in Hive Tyrant protection. They shoot the Tyrant, it gets its 6+ fnp, then shunts the wound to the Guard who gets his own 6+ fnp.

 Badablack wrote:
I like the 6+ on Leviathan nids, because with Tyrant Guard I get to double dip in Hive Tyrant protection. They shoot the Tyrant, it gets its 6+ fnp, then shunts the wound to the Guard who gets his own 6+ fnp.

That's actually quite clever

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
I like the 6+ on Leviathan nids, because with Tyrant Guard I get to double dip in Hive Tyrant protection. They shoot the Tyrant, it gets its 6+ fnp, then shunts the wound to the Guard who gets his own 6+ fnp.

That's actually quite clever

As a nid player I adore Tyrant Guard but god damn they need +1 or 2 wounds, 3 wounds on such a big beefy 'supposed perfect guard organisim' with only a 3+ armour save and T5 is pretty lacking. that or a 5++ permanently as even Tau shield drones get that.

6+++ only matters on hoards.

catbarf wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You need 6 wounds to average an extra wound.

We're talking saves, not like 'mortal wound on 6' abilities. A mortal wound on a roll of 6 requires 6 wounds to trigger an extra, for a 16.67% increase in firepower (7/6). Saving an inflicted wound on a 6 requires 6 wounds taken to average negating one, bumping the wounds taken down to 5, for a 16.67% reduction in damage which is a 20% increase in durability (reciprocal of 5/6).

A model with 5 wounds and a 6+++ save will, on average, take 6 wounds to actually kill. That's 20% more than it would without the save.

Sorry if I'm being dense.

A dice has a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 6. 5 wounds = 5 dice. 5 * 0.167 = 0.833, which does not result in a full extra wound - it's still more durable, but not by the amount stated, I think.

In any case - some "real world" dice rolling with my app:

A 3 damage weapon
- 35% down to 2
- 7% down to 1
- 0.5% down to 0

A 2 damage weapon
- 28% down to 1
- 3% down to 0

An Armiger firing at a T5 W5 6+++ shows a 14% gain to survive 1 salvo.



While 20 SB shooting the same target gives is an extra 37.5% chance to survive 1 salvo and 8% to survive 2 salvo.

6+++ is great when you have a ton of wounds.

If that affects vehicles - and you have good vehicles - it's really quite nice. A few lucky rolls can keep your opponent from getting a critical kill this turn. Of course ironically that matters more in ITC than in GW missions, where kill count per turn actually matters.

In response to the above, expected extra wounds is one way to view it.

Another way is that if you deal 5 damage to a 5 wound model, you have about a 60% chance to survive that damage with at least 1 wound remaining, thanks to your 6+++.

Where that can really matter, for example, is 3 wound models, and 2 wound models. It gives them baked in resilience against weapons that really hurt them. 30% chance to survive a failed overcharge plasma save on a 2 wound model. ~40% chance to survive 3 damage on a 3 wound model.

So the net durability might change more than just 1 extra wound, because of the way multi damage works. If your shots deal 3 damage, and you are shooting a 3 wound model, if he makes 1 feel no pain, suddenly that model took 6 damage to die, rather than 3. This is a critical point you're not representing.

When you're getting hit by multi-damage weapons on multi-wound models and the numbers are the same, a 6+++ is really good.

It adds a lot more than you'd expect on Primaris getting deleted by Dissies (although maybe not enough). And check out the numbers on what it does to a 3W model being eaten by 3D weapons.

Bharring wrote:
When you're getting hit by multi-damage weapons on multi-wound models and the numbers are the same, a 6+++ is really good.

It adds a lot more than you'd expect on Primaris getting deleted by Dissies (although maybe not enough). And check out the numbers on what it does to a 3W model being eaten by 3D weapons.

I literally just posted this right above you xoxo