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Not to be a complete smartass here, but you have seen Imperial Guard, Necrons, Eldar, and Tyranids on the table before, right?

yes, no yes and yes. Still I can tell the difference between a IG dude and a lemman russ or a dark reaper and a shining spear and a wave serpent. Stealers and guants harder, but thanks to GW stealers models are more ugly. So no I don't have problems with them, the way 10 hellblasters all look the same to me.

Well, I do miss being able to equip my units with weapons and wargear that arent in the box...

Im still waiting on GW to finally make a primaris captain with a power sword and plasma pistol. This is something that should not, and never was , a problem.

Karol wrote:

Not to be a complete smartass here, but you have seen Imperial Guard, Necrons, Eldar, and Tyranids on the table before, right?

yes, no yes and yes. Still I can tell the difference between a IG dude and a lemman russ or a dark reaper and a shining spear and a wave serpent. Stealers and guants harder, but thanks to GW stealers models are more ugly. So no I don't have problems with them, the way 10 hellblasters all look the same to me.

I'm not sure what you're saying here- that you can't tell the difference between a Space Marine with a big plasma gun and a Space Marine with a big bolter gun?

Or you're bothered that they are all wearing the same thing, like Space Marines pretty much have always done?

...I mean, I'm not even sure what you're saying here.

 Eldarsif wrote:
As a counterpoint to this:

Pretty much this. Most people become cynical and jaded over time and don't understand that it is affecting their view of everything they interact with, whether it is tabletop wargaming, boardgames, or computer games.

(snip)

Today we have the same marketing, but the demographic has changed(it is more diverse) and the times have changed. I am willing to bet dollar to donuts that there is a little kid out there browsing a Games Workshop/FLGS shelves and seeing that big and overwhelming Dark Imperium box, and that kid is going through every same emotion you went when you first saw that big 2nd/3rd/4th+ edition box set, seeing impossible words with impossible heroics, cruelty, and a myriad of different things. The difference is that that kid is experiencing those emotions for the first time while each and everyone of us older individuals have become more cynical and jaded and the latter believing that their first entry into the hobby was somehow better, because for some reason humans have this uncontrollable need to somehow feel superior, but that is perhaps my cynical and jaded take on humans.

Very, very true. Sometimes it's not the rest of the world that's changed, it's just us. And one of the hardest things for any generation to do is move out of the way, quit gatekeeping about the "right way" to do something, and examine the assumptions that their generation was the pinnacle of human accomplishment.

I also want to add in something that I see a lot of people just glaze over for some reason. Maybe it's because they've never worked at a game company or in the entertainment industry, but Games Workshop is filled with people who want to work on Warhammer and its future. People who themselves had that magical moment in the past when they opened up their first starter box, and now they are bringing their vision and touch to the game. To think that it is all just marketing and a faceless corporation I can tell you that this is just what you see because you don't know any of the designers, artists, and so on who are working on the game, and because you don't see it personally it becomes easy to think that these are just faceless drones following the bidding of their overlords. I can tell you this, however, that it is more than likely that each and every soul on the ground at GW wants to do something awesome for the hobby. People who are every day at work fighting to make the game better, bring something cool to it, or trying to discover stuff that can expand the hobby.

I do wonder if there's the same process that went on at Marvel and DC--where eventually, the people controlling the direction of the franchise are those who grew up as fans of it. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Karol wrote:
All the hellblasters look the same, same with the bolter dudes, the flying dudes and the not terminator dudes. Maybe someone can notice the difference when holding two models in their hands, but from the other side of the table it looks like 9 indentical dudes and one waving his weapon around aka the squad leader.

Not to be a complete smartass here, but you have seen Imperial Guard, Necrons, Eldar, and Tyranids on the table before, right?

...and I'm not sure how that's any different at all from any of the old Space Marines.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
People are saying this cause compared to older marine kits, the options are pretty limited. If I'm assembling a normal marine squad, I can pull bitz from 50+ sources. Chaos, DW, GKs, FW, Sub loyalist chapters, the sky is the limit.

Yeah, their weapon selection is limited. That's it, the only kits that are limited are the easy-to-build sets.

Once you've assembled the legs to the torso, everything that works on the old Space Marine kits works with Primaris Marines, except:

Beakie Helmets (fix this by cutting down the collar)
Backpacks (fix this by cutting the peg down on the back)

HoundsofDemos wrote:
With Primaris marines, it's whats in this box. Even within their own range, the various units have little to no cross compatibility.

That's weird... because I've been doing that whole 'cross compatibility' thing with the entire Primaris range for a few weeks now, even combining them with old Space Marine kits.

Within their own range, the only thing that doesn't work with Mark X armor is the right arm from Reivers, because it has its own shoulderpad affixed. A file or Dremmel tool fixes this. Otherwise, you just have to cut the hands and TBH that's actually a lot easier.

Most Primaris models are cross compatible in some ways, but the problem isnt that You need to file some plastic off arms or whatever to make parts fit. Its that every primaris marine is identicle to their own unit. Look at hellblasters and intercessors. They are the most closely related in asthetics but the hellblasters have tassets when imtercessors dont and they also have slightly different helmets. Normal marines wear mixed and matched armour all the time but theres no in-world explanation as to why a primaris marine would be wearing a mkvii helmet or have hellblaster tassets whem the rest of their unit doesnt.

With some of it you can just say its their replacement parts for easier repairs, like intercessors with mkvii helmets, but an intercessor with a hellblaster helmet is a little harder to explain. For some reason after 112 ish years in the fluff primaris marines havent changed one bit.

 Stux wrote:
As a counterpoint to this:

Bare in mind that you are viewing the things GW does now with VERY different eyes than you would have in the 80s or 90s.

I don't know your age, so I'll talk about my experience. I was 10 when I played 40k 2nd edition. There is a wonder in discovering something like that, at that age, that cannot be replicated for someone in their 30s.

That's basically my story too. At that age, the sense of fun and wonder, when your friends first show you these books with this amazing artwork in it, unlike anything you've ever seen before, and these pictures of these beautifully painted miniatures in their gorgeous (for the most part) early 90's paint schemes with all the bright reds and the yellows and the greens. They looked amazing and the aesthetic of the sculpts was great.

Fast forward to the modern era, it's difficult to replicate that feeling for me and I wonder whether with computer graphics being what they are now if 40k can produce that same magic and mystique in kids?

I do wonder if there's the same process that went on at Marvel and DC--where eventually, the people controlling the direction of the franchise are those who grew up as fans of it. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

Am not sure about DC, as no one here sells their comics, but from what I have seen at marvel the people there maybe many things, but fans of marvel, specially of the old marvel they are not.

I'm not sure what you're saying here- that you can't tell the difference between a Space Marine with a big plasma gun and a Space Marine with a big bolter gun?

Or you're bothered that they are all wearing the same thing, like Space Marines pretty much have always done?

What I am saying is that if you deploy 30 hellblasters, all the models look the same. While something like GK termintors each model looks different. Same with tacticals or assault space marines. The kits made it so that no no model had to look the same. Intercesors look like clones of each other, Same with all the other primaris, with maybe the exeption of the bad scout ones, but no one uses them, so no one gets to see them.

123ply wrote:

With some of it you can just say its their replacement parts for easier repairs, like intercessors with mkvii helmets, but an intercessor with a hellblaster helmet is a little harder to explain. For some reason after 112 ish years in the fluff primaris marines havent changed one bit.

I'm not sure why this is a concern. I put damned near any helmet I want on Primaris bodies all the time, especially Legion Upgrade helmets.

Karol wrote:
[What I am saying is that if you deploy 30 hellblasters, all the models look the same. While something like GK termintors each model looks different. Same with tacticals or assault space marines. The kits made it so that no no model had to look the same. Intercesors look like clones of each other, Same with all the other primaris, with maybe the exeption of the bad scout ones, but no one uses them, so no one gets to see them.

A- Grey Knights don't have that many variations, sorry. No. And if you use a kit that has 5 models and make 30 of them, following the specific instructions on how to assemble them, yes- they will all look alike. That's why you have to change some things around.

B- "No one" uses Reivers, except I do, quite often, and they're hardly 'bad' if you know how to use them.

These complaints literally apply to any other Space Marines. The only thing stopping people is laziness, considering the cross-compatibility of the kits and the fact that old stuff works just fine on them.

A- Grey Knights don't have that many variations, sorry. No. And if you use a kit that has 5 models and make 30 of them, following the specific instructions on how to assemble them, yes- they will all look alike. That's why you have to change some things around.

Every one of my termintors looks different. See this is the same type of argument as yours I use reavers. I did not know that there are any instructions on how models should be assembled. Although if there are, it would be kind of a odd to not follow them. If I assmebled a model in not the right way, I wouldn't be able to sleep.

Karol wrote:
Every one of my termintors looks different. See this is the same type of argument as yours I use reavers. I did not know that there are any instructions on how models should be assembled. Although if there are, it would be kind of a odd to not follow them. If I assmebled a model in not the right way, I wouldn't be able to sleep.

Yeah, I've seen the kits. What you're doing is what can be done with the Intercessor kits- mixing things around. But it seems like the people you're playing against are following the instructions all the way.

Basically if you only use the instructions to build the torso and legs for Primaris kits, you can get a lot more variation in your poses with arms and such.

Also you're comparing an elite type army against a far less elite type.

Every single Deathwatch marine I have looks different, even the Primaris Marines....

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
That's weird... because I've been doing that whole 'cross compatibility' thing with the entire Primaris range for a few weeks now, even combining them with old Space Marine kits. 

Within their own range, the only thing that doesn't work with Mark X armor is the right arm from Reivers, because it has its own shoulderpad affixed. A file or Dremmel tool fixes this. Otherwise, you just have to cut the hands and TBHthat's actually a lot easier. 

Karol wrote:
Every one of my termintors looks different. See this is the same type of argument as yours I use reavers. I did not know that there are any instructions on how models should be assembled. Although if there are, it would be kind of a odd to not follow them. If I assmebled a model in not the right way, I wouldn't be able to sleep.

Yeah, I've seen the kits. What you're doing is what can be done with the Intercessor kits- mixing things around. But it seems like the people you're playing against are following the instructions all the way.

Basically if you only use the instructions to build the torso and legs for Primaris kits, you can get a lot more variation in your poses with arms and such.

Also you're comparing an elite type army against a far less elite type.

Every single Deathwatch marine I have looks different, even the Primaris Marines....

mixing and matching within the primaris range turns out a decently varied amount of models. even going back & dipping into ye olde bitsbox looks great. Reivers w Aggressors shoulders looks dope & hellblasters/intercessors w mkIII just seems to fit. Aggressors w terminator shoulders same thing.

but back on topic, GW is changing. Is it one we(collectively) want? Remains to be seen. I'm all for it since 8th brought me back into 40k after 25yrs.

Right now there are only 3 different types of primaris armour; Intercessor/hellblaster, Reiver, & Gravis. for all we know there could be another 2 or 3 diff versions coming out? maybe we should just wait and see what the future brings?

Karol wrote:

What I am saying is that if you deploy 30 hellblasters, all the models look the same. While something like GK termintors each model looks different. Same with tacticals or assault space marines. The kits made it so that no no model had to look the same. Intercesors look like clones of each other, Same with all the other primaris, with maybe the exeption of the bad scout ones, but no one uses them, so no one gets to see them.

Yeah this new policy of making really restricted models with little variety really sucks. They should look at Guardians, Cadians, Necron Warriors, Terma/Hormagaunts and Fire Warrriors for examples of amazing variety and poseability!

Space Marine players and Dakka posters are just hilarious sometimes.

Cadians kit is kind of awful though. And there are really very limited posing options for the models, beyond rotating the legs and the heads. You can have the odd guy with a grenade in his hand, but they'll all be holding it in the same pose. Sgt Chainsword is at a weird angle so you have limited options on how to use it without it looking dumb.

 Stux wrote:
Cadians kit is kind of awful though. And there are really very limited posing options for the models, beyond rotating the legs and the heads. You can have the odd guy with a grenade in his hand, but they'll all be holding it in the same pose. Sgt Chainsword is at a weird angle so you have limited options on how to use it without it looking dumb.

That's the joke.

 Bosskelot wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Cadians kit is kind of awful though. And there are really very limited posing options for the models, beyond rotating the legs and the heads. You can have the odd guy with a grenade in his hand, but they'll all be holding it in the same pose. Sgt Chainsword is at a weird angle so you have limited options on how to use it without it looking dumb.

That's the joke.

Well... That went right over my head! Apologies haha

As an example of a decent compromise between posable elements and monopose elements to create nice, fairly diverse looking minis I'd say the Custodian Guard kit is a genuinely good example.

 kveldulf wrote:
... or are that super pumped about fielding zoids (overly large miniatures) on the field.

Don't knock Zoids! They were a mainstay of conversion parts and background components for two decades!!! (Despite being 1/72)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember there is always a measure of growing up and changing... For example I can'tunderatand people talking about 3rd and onwards edition (insert number here) as being high points. 3rd killed 40k for me and I didn't play the game again until 8th. (Though still had affection for the background and played Epic and Blood Bowl.)

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'll betcha a nickel that the new Genestealer Cult characters will be monopose. Just like 90% of the characters in the last 3 years.

Well the old metals were very monopose




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
The "small universe" thing, with the special characters taking up all the storyline space, is something I really feel. It used to be, the Galaxy is a big place, and whatever happens you will not be missed." and now it reads like bad fanfic in some cases.

Yes it is very limited now with a lot of the breadth and scope not really written about.

This is even more true in Warhammer Fantasy, when End Times turned the background into a soap opera between a few named characters and now all of those characters are the gods of a new pantheon that are heavily involved in absolutely everything that happens in the setting. Blech. Reads like Forgotten Realms or something now, not a direction I enjoy at all.

That I believe is to try and get round the geographic problem of the old game where many sides had zero reason to fight...

 Luciferian wrote:


I sought out like-minded people, who wanted the same thing and were having the same frustrations with the local meta and FLGS. You might hear people say it's wrong to be a gatekeeper, but that's exactly what I did- I screened people and analyzed them while I spent time with them like they were gonna be babysitting my kids and holding my bank account info.

Gate keeping is wrong, but what you're describing isn't gatekeeping; unless of course, you haven't included that you are also taking it further and using pejoratives like cheater, TFG, telling people to go play another game, they're not real fans, etc towards those who don't share your hobby priorities.

There's a difference between choosing to play like minded players in a closed group and engaging in hostile, badgering, and toxic behavior. Gatekeeping is about respect for your fellow gamer when they choose not to engage in the hobby the same way you do, it doesn't mean you have to be friends with or play games with them if they don't match your priorities.

123ply wrote:

Most Primaris models are cross compatible in some ways, but the problem isnt that You need to file some plastic off arms or whatever to make parts fit. Its that every primaris marine is identicle to their own unit. Look at hellblasters and intercessors. They are the most closely related in asthetics but the hellblasters have tassets when imtercessors dont

2/5 of the Dark Imperium Hellblasters have tassets, 3/5 do not. Your argument is invalid.

Edit:

ETB and DI Intercessors also came with tassets.

Also, no one should give a flying feth if an Intercessor is wearing Hellblaster armor or vice versa.

I don't think there is a fundamentally right way to set up a game. Recently I have been on a very large Bolt Action streak. At its core, Bolt Action is a very simple rule set. A rifle is a rifle whether it is a Mosin or a Springfield, and an SMG is an SMG whether its a Tommy or a PPSh-41. There are no save rolls, very little differentiation between troops. But overall it works. Bolt Action does a good job of making you feel like your platoon is in a high intensity fire fight. The pin mechanic- which is relatively simple does a good job at simulating suppressible fire, and overall the game feels good to play.

I am also a big fan of Warhammer Fantasy 8th Edition and yes, The 9th Age. I really enjoyed the massive amount of customization, they way the game becomes about positioning clunky blocks of infantry. I also enjoy Malifaux where behind the relatively simple idea of a card flip to determine the success of an action is an absolute deluge of special rules and abilities which modify and combo with the game in an almost unimaginable number of ways.

What is important isn't whether something is simple or complex. That is almost never the question. Its whether the game manages to capture something exciting that makes it fun to play and/or offers a strong amount of strategic depth that makes us want to keep experiencing the game as we go forwards. Its like comparing Quoridor to Catan. Both are fun games, one is incredibly simple and one is on the complex side of casual. But both games have a lot of strategic depth that makes no two games quite the same. I enjoy both Quoridor and Catan, in the same way i enjoy both Bolt Action and Malifaux.

Where the issue i think comes in from 40K, isn't a question of whether it is "too simple". Its that it has been reducing the amount of "strategic depth" in the game. Because strategic depth =/= complexity. By all measures, 40K is more complex than say, Bolt Action. 40k offers an incredible amount of unit diversity, war gear and ways to build your models that Bolt Action players cannot even dream of. But when push comes to shove all that diversity doesn't really serve to add any real depth to 40k's overall experience. Because at the end of the day, its not about how many options a piece can be kitted out with, but how that piece is used on the table. Bolt Action has more strategic depth than 40K because even though my individual units are more simplified the overall battle plan requires more thought to execute. Uncertain alternating activation means I'm considering which units I want to activate ASAP, which I want to save for later, which i want to put into ambush, or maybe try to suppress an enemy squad in a good position with pins before I attempt something. In 40K by contrast my plans are much much much simpler- with my Slaaneshi CSM for instance my battle plan essentially amounts to push hard into mid-close range, while i am anticipating what my opponent is going to do in their turn, I don't need to worry about them interrupting my own turn in any real way. 40K requires skills like target priority, list building, and macro management. Bolt Action requires those skills, but also requires you to micromanage your unit activations and adapt on the fly to your opponent getting an order dice at a bad time, and putting together more complicated maneuvers to achieve results, achieved via the pin system and the games overall more intimate (and sometimes very frustrating) relationship leadership and order checks and tons of hit modifiers sabotaging accuracy, making the game overall far less deadly than 40k, which increases the number of balls your platoon has to juggle to achieve victory.

I think that is what the core of the problem ultimately is. That little thing about 40k that nags us as we play. Its an amazing universe, full of flavor and possibility and endless ways to build and customize our squads. The problem with it is strategically its a relatively weak game, with one or two obviously superior ways to build units and actually play the game. Unit customization doesn't really matter much when there is only one or at most two "effective" ways to kit a squad. Variety in units doesn't matter much when most armies only have 3-4 "competitive" units in the codex. 40K's lack of strategic thought does not necessarily come from the length of the rules, but in how those rules are used.

 Elbows wrote:
It's definitely not rose tinted glasses. The game is far less...geeky than it used to be, 100%.

I disagree, i think its more to do with the fact the "geek/Nerd" is not such a shameful thing to be anymore. Now if anything being a nerd is kinda cool. Hell video games 20 years ago where only for nerds and you could get literally bullied for it, now everyone has a gaming console and gak.

I would actually say 40k was why more camp than it is now. But i guess thats the 80's/ early 90's for you.

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It's definitely not rose tinted glasses. The game is far less...geeky than it used to be, 100%.

I disagree, i think its more to do with the fact the "geek/Nerd" is not such a shameful thing to be anymore. Now if anything being a nerd is kinda cool. Hell video games 20 years ago where only for nerds and you could get literally bullied for it, now everyone has a gaming console and gak.

I would actually say 40k was why more camp than it is now. But i guess thats the 80's/ early 90's for you.

Yeah, they literally released Christmas themed space marines at one point way back!

John Prins wrote:

123ply wrote:

Most Primaris models are cross compatible in some ways, but the problem isnt that You need to file some plastic off arms or whatever to make parts fit. Its that every primaris marine is identicle to their own unit. Look at hellblasters and intercessors. They are the most closely related in asthetics but the hellblasters have tassets when imtercessors dont

2/5 of the Dark Imperium Hellblasters have tassets, 3/5 do not. Your argument is invalid.

Edit:

ETB and DI Intercessors also came with tassets.

Also, no one should give a flying feth if an Intercessor is wearing Hellblaster armor or vice versa.

Agreed

FEARtheMoose wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
It's definitely not rose tinted glasses. The game is far less...geeky than it used to be, 100%.

I disagree, i think its more to do with the fact the "geek/Nerd" is not such a shameful thing to be anymore. Now if anything being a nerd is kinda cool. Hell video games 20 years ago where only for nerds and you could get literally bullied for it, now everyone has a gaming console and gak.

I would actually say 40k was why more camp than it is now. But i guess thats the 80's/ early 90's for you.

It has become more socially acceptable to enjoy things such as 40k, Star Wars, etc...

I do miss much of the camp from RT, 2nd ed.

What has changed?
I rarely go into a GW shop anymore except on a whim to have a look or even just to buy the odd pot of paint. I also never go in to play anymore.

Decades ago, even when I used to find Virgin stores which sold GW stuff cheaper than the actual shop, I still used to go to the GW for the social element. No more.

I either play at someone's home, or in a local club (as other shops are miles away from me). If the GW had gaming "warehouses" where you could rent a table, with relaxed rules, and maybe a cafe or somewhere to get drinks and food I'd consider it.
It's like how shops on the high-street are having to think differently as they cannot compete on price they have to socialise the shopping experience. As a kid I'd also go into the GW shops and paint! I wouldn't even dream of that now... I just the videos online to teach me how to do it and paint alone whilst listening to music or a film. That's a technological difference, but I'd love to get painting with people in real life and have a laugh and a chat, and also to focus me.

White Dwarf also used to show you how to build your own terrain. Touches like that were really cool, but they've been lost now.

This is like arguing the book is better than the movie. The movie has mass appeal, the book doesn't.

While I agree that it would be cool to see a lot more immersion and depth, I also understand that would push out a lot of people who adopted 8th edition because it is the gaming equivalent of training wheels.

I will say that D&D 4e was awful, but it lead into 5th which is considered quite good. Maybe 9th edition they'll get it right.

There are some incredibly rose-tinted glasses here!

GW have not been run by 'geeks' since the very early 90s. When Bryan Ansell was 'forced' due to medical reasons to sell up and move to a warm climate he sold to accountants.

I was working for them at the time and it went from a really relaxed vibe with lots of casual staff and a focus on the shops being an experience to something radically different.

Out went relaxed managers, fun and laughs, playing whatever music the staff felt like, taking slightly longer for lunch than we really should - and crucially cultivating a regular loyal customer base. In came sales targets, ruthless cutting of less profitable ranges, refocusing totally on miniatures and abandoning boardgames and RPGs. In came secret shoppers, mass sackings of whole shop staff. In came a directive to maximise sales by literally ignoring regulars and driving them away, looking for constant churn of new, younger customers, who would spend big initially then move onto a new hobby and be replaced. In short it became ruthlessly capitalist nearly 30 years ago.

Since the new guy took over this has been dialled right back and there is a lot more freedom for staff, especially the rules and fluff writers, WD etc to expand, innovate, etc.

It can never be a bunch of geeks having fun with their mates again but it can certainly avoid the excesses it got into. Kirby was the problem and since he's been gone things have notably and markedly improved. Go to any GW open day and compare the atmosphere to maybe 5 years ago. Then the staff were 'on message', incredibly careful not to say anything they shouldn't, always seemed to be pitching for sales. Now they are happier, more positive and eager to discuss most things, even being willing to say a bit more than they should.

Akaean, it's also trivially easy to convert 40k to run on Bolt(gun) Action's activation system. Try it out