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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Its probably because Orks have an over reliance on their characters to get around glaring weaknesses and the megarmoured boss doesn't exist outside of index. A save of any sort is infinitely better than no save. To be clear, this hurts any faction with low save, low wound characters.

For Orks specifically;

A SAG Big Mek is virtually mandatory to combat armour. Vindicares make him redundant.

A weirdboy is mandatory to get Boyz across the board. One perils means average Vindicares rolls kills you. Guaranteed.

A KFF Big Mek/MA Mek is mandatory to help with durability.

We can only use Grot Shields once per round (if we're lucky) so that doesn't help when the enemy can fire at two characters at once.

This reeks of GW creating an overpowered mess because they are unsure his to fix assassins. No army should be able to list tailor to their opponent on the fly. It's so obviously a poor design decision it even looks stupid when written down. Its introducing more mechanic breaking elements to the game and taking us closer and closer to the balance mess of 7th.

Okay but can't the Big Mek with SAG just take the grot oiler. Vindicare shoots (and kills) the oiler. Since he kills the oiler he doesn't get that "Head Shot" mortal wound roll off. But he also can't use "double kill" since the grot oiler was technically the same target as the SAG big mek?

Am I wrong in assuming this?

I'm really surprised by this for 2 main reasons:

They have essentially made assassins an auto-include. For me the Vindcare is an outstanding option as I could sit him back and just pop off my opponents support characters, whilst also keeping himself safe behind the character keyword. Easily make his point back and weaken any deathstars. Meanwhile the Cullexis for more competitive games to blunt any alpha strikes relying on CP by making them all really expensive.

The second surprise is that GW didn't milk this cow for money. They have an assassin that could be released, which for a single model they could quickly make, sell for stupid money and if it's even slightly in line with the other assassins, be snapped up by every imperium army.

Biggest losers in all of this, Necrons.

 Trimarius wrote:
Well, being able to psychic a castellan to death was fun while it lasted.

Though, funnily enough, GSC can take an assassin of their own, too, as that Brood Brother detachment still has the Imperium tag. The corruption runs deep, apparently.

Seems you could also do chaos assasins. Cypher as warlord and then vanquard with 3+ assasins`? Or maybe battle brother rule screws that. Can chaos do legal non-aux det with fallen marines to use the strategem?

Well gak, looks like I am leaving my 85 pts of Culexus Assassin in my list, just that it will be whichever Assassin I want at any given time now. Culexus if it is Psyker heavy. Vindicare for HeroHammer. Eversor for murdering all of the rest.

These rules look awesome. The Vindicare is definitely a rockstar now. Definitely some broken things that can be done, but I just really like the Headshot ability.

tneva82 wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:
Well, being able to psychic a castellan to death was fun while it lasted.

Though, funnily enough, GSC can take an assassin of their own, too, as that Brood Brother detachment still has the Imperium tag. The corruption runs deep, apparently.

Seems you could also do chaos assasins. Cypher as warlord and then vanquard with 3+ assasins`? Or maybe battle brother rule screws that. Can chaos do legal non-aux det with fallen marines to use the strategem?

Assassins for everyone, except you Tau /Ork / necrons, you don't matter!!!!

GSC and Cypher will no doubt get FAQd. I can't see this standing very long.

Kind of sad that no name characters have better weapons and better rules.
Can this buff to assassins means end end of character armies and what will low wound characters do?
There are to many characters that are with 2-3 wounds, so the incoming assassin spam is not really healthy for the game.

Necrons have the vehicle character, (CCB), might offer some resiliance to this development

torblind wrote:
Necrons have the vehicle character, (CCB), might offer some resiliance to this development

Sure, the assassin player will play that 1 CP stratagem turbo penetrator round which inflicts D3 MW on a VEHICLE.

I love the assassins. Have done since that mini codex they released for 2nd Edition or whenever it was and I'm delighted that their rules read like how the fluff portrays them now.

HOWEVER.

I do think they're undercosted. I'm not sure by how much though, I'd need to put one on the table and actually use it to find out, but they seem better than some 150+ pts characters now.

 p5freak wrote:

torblind wrote:
Necrons have the vehicle character, (CCB), might offer some resiliance to this development

Sure, the assassin player will play that 1 CP stratagem turbo penetrator round which inflicts D3 MW on a VEHICLE.

Well. Good thing that necron thing has more than 3 wounds so not really too much fretted out by that.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I love the assassins. Have done since that mini codex they released for 2nd Edition or whenever it was and I'm delighted that their rules read like how the fluff portrays them now.

HOWEVER.

I do think they're undercosted. I'm not sure by how much though, I'd need to put one on the table and actually use it to find out, but they seem better than some 150+ pts characters now.

Your aware that 2 out of 4 got more expensive with this change right?
One got 5 points cheaper and 1 stayed the same.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

torblind wrote:
Necrons have the vehicle character, (CCB), might offer some resiliance to this development

Sure, the assassin player will play that 1 CP stratagem turbo penetrator round which inflicts D3 MW on a VEHICLE.

I'm sure an 8 wound character that regenerates a wound per turn is really scared of your d3 wounds per turn.
It will only take you the entire game to not even kill him.

But wouldn't the turbo-penetrator round *snickers* cause the "Head Shot" mortal wound roll off to go off as well? That specifies ranged weapon, don't know if the stratagem counts towards that but considering you use it with the pistol or rifle I assume it does..

I don't know my necron characters but if that's the case then you could end up with significantly more than 3 wounds.

tneva82 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

torblind wrote:
Necrons have the vehicle character, (CCB), might offer some resiliance to this development

Sure, the assassin player will play that 1 CP stratagem turbo penetrator round which inflicts D3 MW on a VEHICLE.

Well. Good thing that necron thing has more than 3 wounds so not really too much fretted out by that.

Shame about every other Necron character however

 Ordana wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I love the assassins. Have done since that mini codex they released for 2nd Edition or whenever it was and I'm delighted that their rules read like how the fluff portrays them now.

HOWEVER.

I do think they're undercosted. I'm not sure by how much though, I'd need to put one on the table and actually use it to find out, but they seem better than some 150+ pts characters now.

Your aware that 2 out of 4 got more expensive with this change right?
One got 5 points cheaper and 1 stayed the same.

How does that effect what I said?

Marin wrote:Kind of sad that no name characters have better weapons and better rules.

If anyone should have rules this powerful, it absolutely should be the assassins. They're rarer and more powerful than Chapter Masters, and I'm cool with them being like that in game too. The price tag is where I have an issue.

Can this buff to assassins means end end of character armies and what will low wound characters do?

Honestly, I think character armies should have an end. Bring back more troops, more actual armies rather than HeroHammer.

Low wound characters absolutely should be threatened by these Assassins. What the issue is isn't in the Assasssins, but that these characters are used as a crutch. If an army NEEDS their support characters to function in any way, then they should be changed to have less reliance - or, the assassin should be more valuable, as you're paying a premium to disable an army in such a way.

There are to many characters that are with 2-3 wounds, so the incoming assassin spam is not really healthy for the game.

Which characters have 2 wounds?
Alternatively, I think the over-reliance on characters is more unhealthy for the game.

Sim-Life wrote:I love the assassins. Have done since that mini codex they released for 2nd Edition or whenever it was and I'm delighted that their rules read like how the fluff portrays them now.

HOWEVER.

I do think they're undercosted. I'm not sure by how much though, I'd need to put one on the table and actually use it to find out, but they seem better than some 150+ pts characters now.

Agreed. I would like them to be higher costed, but I think they absolutely should be this powerful. However, powerful should come with the price to accompany it.

I'm also still not a fan of the list tailoring aspect, being able to choose one after the game starts for any CP cost is not sitting well with me.
Why couldn't it just have been left at "You may take a single Assassin in a Vanguard Detachment, with no HQ, with no Command Benefits unless you have one of each type of Assassin"? I mean, I was doing that anyways, just with an Auxiliary Detachment.

PiñaColada wrote:But wouldn't the turbo-penetrator round *snickers* cause the "Head Shot" mortal wound roll off to go off as well? That specifies ranged weapon, don't know if the stratagem counts towards that but considering you use it with the pistol or rifle I assume it does..

I don't know my necron characters but if that's the case then you could end up with significantly more than 3 wounds.

Nope, because it specifically says that the Head Shot ability doesn't apply to any shots made with the Turbo-Penetrator Rounds - probably to stop Vindicares one-shotting vehicles.

JohnnyHell wrote:

torblind wrote:
Would CP generation by this mechanic fall under the normal CP generation restriction, ie one per battle round?

Yes.

No. Read the last sentence of the tactical restraint rule.

PiñaColada wrote:But wouldn't the turbo-penetrator round *snickers* cause the "Head Shot" mortal wound roll off to go off as well? That specifies ranged weapon, don't know if the stratagem counts towards that but considering you use it with the pistol or rifle I assume it does..

I don't know my necron characters but if that's the case then you could end up with significantly more than 3 wounds.

Turbo penetrator round does not trigger the headshot ability.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:But wouldn't the turbo-penetrator round *snickers* cause the "Head Shot" mortal wound roll off to go off as well? That specifies ranged weapon, don't know if the stratagem counts towards that but considering you use it with the pistol or rifle I assume it does..

I don't know my necron characters but if that's the case then you could end up with significantly more than 3 wounds.

Nope, because it specifically says that the Head Shot ability doesn't apply to any shots made with the Turbo-Penetrator Rounds - probably to stop Vindicares one-shotting vehicles.

Well, my reading comprehension is certainly suspect at this point

The best part is that Chaos now can use assassins! All you need to do is take a Patrol of Cypher and a minimum unit of Fallen and you have access to the "Buy an assassin" stratagem.

 p5freak wrote:

JohnnyHell wrote:

torblind wrote:
Would CP generation by this mechanic fall under the normal CP generation restriction, ie one per battle round?

Yes.

No. Read the last sentence of the tactical restraint rule.

Bummer

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The best part is that Chaos now can use assassins! All you need to do is take a Patrol of Cypher and a minimum unit of Fallen and you have access to the "Buy an assassin" stratagem.

Except that in a Patrol detachment you must take one unit of troops and the only troops you have access to are Cultists and Chaos Marines, and neither of those two have the Imperium keyword thus making you ineligible for the Assassin stratagems. You'd need to take a Vanguard detachment with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen to make this work. The minimum cost for this would be 290 points (before Assassin cost).

Anyone else think an Execution Force could prove a real hard counter to Bobby G, Morty, et al?

The Vindicare alone with exploding MW may make people think twice about bringing the Primarchs.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Anyone else think an Execution Force could prove a real hard counter to Bobby G, Morty, et al?

The Vindicare alone with exploding MW may make people think twice about bringing the Primarchs.

I mean, you still have to wound them. Even Guilliman is T6 and not infantry

 Nighttail wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The best part is that Chaos now can use assassins! All you need to do is take a Patrol of Cypher and a minimum unit of Fallen and you have access to the "Buy an assassin" stratagem.

Except that in a Patrol detachment you must take one unit of troops and the only troops you have access to are Cultists and Chaos Marines, and neither of those two have the Imperium keyword thus making you ineligible for the Assassin stratagems. You'd need to take a Vanguard detachment with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen to make this work. The minimum cost for this would be 290 points (before Assassin cost).

Yeah my bad I thought that Fallen were troops. Still doable though

Edit: It was pointed out to me that the Assassins stratagems do not exclude Auxiliary Support Detachments, so you can take a single Aux Detachment with Cypher (or under strength Fallen) and gain access to the stratagems.

Can somebody tell me by what rule you can add by the stratagem one Assasin? People is telling me that because he has the Imperium keyword you can't use it, as your Chaos Army doesn't share that.

One of those times I’m concerned that Tempestor Primes don’t get invulnerable saves.

 Galas wrote:
Can somebody tell me by what rule you can add by the stratagem one Assasin? People is telling me that because he has the Imperium keyword you can't use it, as your Chaos Army doesn't share that.

The rules for Assassin Stratagems says if you have an IMPERIUM detachment (i.e. One that all units have the IMPERIUM keyword) you get access to the stratagems.

If you take a detachment of Fallen, who have both the IMPERIUM and CHAOS keyword, you can use the Assassin stratagems to pay 1CP and 85 points to add an Assassin during deployment. Since it has the CHAOS keyword, you can include other detachments so long as they also all have the CHAOS keyword.

e.g. You take an Aux detachment of Cypher. It's a legal matched play detachment because you're using the FALLEN keyword to bind it together. You take a detachment of Thousand Sons. It's a legal matched play detachment because you're using the THOUSAND SONS keyword to bind it together. All units in your army share a keyword, the CHAOS keyword, thus it's a legal matched play army.

Furthermore, because it doesn't exclude Auxiliary Support Detachments, you can take an Aux detachment of Cypher or an understrength Fallen unit to unlock Assassins stratagems.

 Galas wrote:
Can somebody tell me by what rule you can add by the stratagem one Assasin? People is telling me that because he has the Imperium keyword you can't use it, as your Chaos Army doesn't share that.

The start of the new index says you have access to the Stratagems if you have any IMPERIUM detachments in your army.

GSC Brood Brothers have the IMPERIUM keyword, as does Cypher. So either can allow access to an IMPERIUM detachment.

It doesn't allow you to take Assassins normally, but it does allow access to the Stratagem that lets you use Reinforcement points to add an Assassin to your army. You can only use it once though.

I definitely see this as an unintended loophole that will be likely closed in a forthcoming FAQ.

Thanks guys.

 Stux wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Can somebody tell me by what rule you can add by the stratagem one Assasin? People is telling me that because he has the Imperium keyword you can't use it, as your Chaos Army doesn't share that.

The start of the new index says you have access to the Stratagems if you have any IMPERIUM detachments in your army.

GSC Brood Brothers have the IMPERIUM keyword, as does Cypher. So either can allow access to an IMPERIUM detachment.

It doesn't allow you to take Assassins normally, but it does allow access to the Stratagem that lets you use Reinforcement points to add an Assassin to your army. You can only use it once though.

I definitely see this as an unintended loophole that will be likely closed in a forthcoming FAQ.

Then again with chaos inquisitors and why not why not assasins as well. Chaos pays extra for that anyway.