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Not that GW ever really care about fairness but it would balance out the range of SM dex's as well. DA, SW, and BA all have a separate codex, why shouldn't some of the traitor legions get the same love?

drbored wrote:

Headlss wrote:
I hope they don't do Emperors Childern or the Khorn legion. All 4 mono god trator legions should be 3 or 4 pages each inside the chaos marine book. A troop choice a unique HQ and 1 or 2 other unique units. Thats its. Thats all thats needed if ypu want to play them.

Unique 'dexs are a customer punishing marketing strategy. It sucks having armies locked behind gates. You shouldn't need to "unlock" armies.

More people are happier about having separate codexes than aren't.

Speak for yourself. Rules bloat and therefore bad balancing is not healthy for the game and consolidation helps alleviate the issue.

Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo

 SHUPPET wrote:
Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo

A new dex doesn't add unique and fun options. It locks your armies up behind gates. How many cool powers and ablities won't work with Death Guard or Thousand Sons because they are their own completely separate legion? I know there were a bunch of them listed in the Chaos Marines tatics thread.

I would love to see unique charcters for Slaanesh. A new heavy support. A herald riding a fiend (instead of a seeker). A keeper of secrets with a snakes tail would be cool as hell.

My point is we shouldn't need a new codex to get them.

We should because at certain point one Codex becomes just too big for is own good. Just look at the Vanilla Codex full of units that cover the same roles and overlaping. So many units that can't be their own thing because they have to addere to the same core rules.

If you have Rubrics, Plague Marines and CSM in the same Codex as troops then one will just be better than the others because they are three units that fulfill the same role nearly in the same way (And we saw this with how for many editions Rubrics being just worse Plague Marines). When you have different enough factions with different enough playstiles and their own amount of units, having them in different Codex allow for more sinergies, options, powers, etc... to make them work as they should.

If you don't want EC and WE books, I would advise that you don't buy EC and WE books.

Complaining about armies being locked behind gates, as if the Codex system is new, is delightfully dishonest.

Codex system is fine. And GeeDubs deliberately making their product hard to use isn't new either. Just try to pick a weapon for one of your sargent types.
You need to flip back and forth between 4 different pages.

The gates and pass keys come in the form of all the new key words. I worry a new codex coming out now will be locked. It will be exclusive, it will be rigid. It will be, "this is how Emperors Children are played and they cannot be played any other way."

Primaris don't cooperate with old Marines, vanguard primaris don't even buff other Primaris. I have heard Death Guard and Thousand Sons are severely limited in what benifits they can get from regular Chaos Marines becuase they can't share a <legion> with some key units.

I don't want that kind of rigidity for EC I would prefer the flexibility of having axcess to the full Chaos Marine Codex.

I want a gold-plated toilet, but it's just not on the cards.

Your worries seem, to me, to be completely overblown and lacking any sort of accord with reality. If you had a Tzeentch or Nurgle CSM force using C:CSM before, you still have one. As far as I can tell, Ahriman and Typhus are the only units lost and both can be run as something else. So, at worst, the evidence suggests that a Slaanesh or Khorne CSM force from C:CSM (8.5/9.0) would lose access to Lucius and Kharn.

True, none of the Codex <Legion> Detachments would interact with C:CSM Detachments all that much or all that well, but that's a different issue altogether.

That's you wanting new rules for free.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo

How many of those Angels "unqiue" entries are actually unique in function? The answer is only about 3 or 4 of them for each.

It's honestly for their own benefit. Consolidation of the Legions would be a lot harder, but let's not pretend Loyalist Scum chapters are so unique they need a whole codex for each of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
We should because at certain point one Codex becomes just too big for is own good. Just look at the Vanilla Codex full of units that cover the same roles and overlaping. So many units that can't be their own thing because they have to addere to the same core rules.

If you have Rubrics, Plague Marines and CSM in the same Codex as troops then one will just be better than the others because they are three units that fulfill the same role nearly in the same way (And we saw this with how for many editions Rubrics being just worse Plague Marines). When you have different enough factions with different enough playstiles and their own amount of units, having them in different Codex allow for more sinergies, options, powers, etc... to make them work as they should.

Which is because of GW's approach to the Sorcerer stuck in the Rubric squad.

Also basic Chaos Marines have always been bad since their inception since 5th maybe. I keep saying they need to be replaced with Chosen for a reason, and that's because the CSM trying to be a catch-all for Renegades is actively making it a worse codex.

Also yeah we could remove quite a few entries from the Vanilla codex. Do Assault and Tactical Terminators REALLY need their own entries? No. Do Centurions need to really be separate? No.

Headlss wrote:
Codex system is fine. And GeeDubs deliberately making their product hard to use isn't new either. Just try to pick a weapon for one of your sargent types.

Spoiler:

"This model may take a weapon from the very special list." Where is the very special list? Oh up at the front. What do they do? Way at the back. How much does it cost another table way at the back. Well that seems ok what else can I take, back to the first list, back to the weapons table, oh great, the very special list weapons aren't organized together, alphabetical it is. Back to the cost page. Does that ablity make sense with the stats and ablities on the base unit?

You need to flip back and forth between 4 different pages.

The gates and pass keys come in the form of all the new key words. I worry a new codex coming out now will be locked. It will be exclusive, it will be rigid. It will be, "this is how Emperors Children are played and they cannot be played any other way."

Primaris don't cooperate with old Marines, vanguard primaris don't even buff other Primaris. I have heard Death Guard and Thousand Sons are severely limited in what benifits they can get from regular Chaos Marines becuase they can't share a <legion> with some key units.

I don't want that kind of rigidity for EC I would prefer the flexibility of having axcess to the full Chaos Marine Codex.

You can't give TS, WE, EC and DG the full extend of the Chaos Marine Codex or they end up being CSM+++ just like for many editions Space Wolves where SM+++

 Galas wrote:

Headlss wrote:
Codex system is fine. And GeeDubs deliberately making their product hard to use isn't new either. Just try to pick a weapon for one of your sargent types.

Spoiler:

"This model may take a weapon from the very special list." Where is the very special list? Oh up at the front. What do they do? Way at the back. How much does it cost another table way at the back. Well that seems ok what else can I take, back to the first list, back to the weapons table, oh great, the very special list weapons aren't organized together, alphabetical it is. Back to the cost page. Does that ablity make sense with the stats and ablities on the base unit?

You need to flip back and forth between 4 different pages.

The gates and pass keys come in the form of all the new key words. I worry a new codex coming out now will be locked. It will be exclusive, it will be rigid. It will be, "this is how Emperors Children are played and they cannot be played any other way."

Primaris don't cooperate with old Marines, vanguard primaris don't even buff other Primaris. I have heard Death Guard and Thousand Sons are severely limited in what benifits they can get from regular Chaos Marines becuase they can't share a <legion> with some key units.

I don't want that kind of rigidity for EC I would prefer the flexibility of having axcess to the full Chaos Marine Codex.

You can't give TS, WE, EC and DG the full extend of the Chaos Marine Codex or they end up being CSM+++ just like for many editions Space Wolves where SM+++

That's not why Space Wolves have basically been Marines +1.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I want a gold-plated toilet, but it's just not on the cards.

Your worries seem, to me, to be completely overblown and lacking any sort of accord with reality. If you had a Tzeentch or Nurgle CSM force using C:CSM before, you still have one. As far as I can tell, Ahriman and Typhus are the only units lost and both can be run as something else. So, at worst, the evidence suggests that a Slaanesh or Khorne CSM force from C:CSM (8.5/9.0) would lose access to Lucius and Kharn.

True, none of the Codex <Legion> Detachments would interact with C:CSM Detachments all that much or all that well, but that's a different issue altogether.

That's you wanting new rules for free.

I don't want them free. I already paid for them twice. I paid for them in the main rule book. I paid for them in the Chaos Marine book. I don't want to have to pay for it a third time.

If you have the Nurgle and Tzench books and you find that they have good and permissive synergies with Codex deamon, and codex choas Marines, you could just say that.

Headlss wrote:

drbored wrote:

Headlss wrote:
I hope they don't do Emperors Childern or the Khorn legion. All 4 mono god trator legions should be 3 or 4 pages each inside the chaos marine book. A troop choice a unique HQ and 1 or 2 other unique units. Thats its. Thats all thats needed if ypu want to play them.

Unique 'dexs are a customer punishing marketing strategy. It sucks having armies locked behind gates. You shouldn't need to "unlock" armies.

Tell you what, we'll consolidate all of the Space Marine Codexes back into one book, and then we'll put all the Chaos Marines back into one book. Sound fair?

More people are happier about having separate codexes than aren't.

That sounds great as well.

I'm curious what army you play, just out of curiosity

Headlss wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo

A new dex doesn't add unique and fun options.

*Looks at Death Guard* No, totally. For sure. I totally see how having a new dex hasn't added anything unique or fun.

Headlss wrote:
It locks your armies up behind gates. How many cool powers and ablities won't work with Death Guard or Thousand Sons because they are their own completely separate legion? I know there were a bunch of them listed in the Chaos Marines tatics thread.

Those armies have their own tables... Thousand Sons have THREE lol... you aren't missing out on powers or abilities lol you are getting your own, tailor made for your army. So much cool stuff in the these dexes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo

How many of those Angels "unqiue" entries are actually unique in function? The answer is only about 3 or 4 of them for each.

It's honestly for their own benefit. Consolidation of the Legions would be a lot harder, but let's not pretend Loyalist Scum chapters are so unique they need a whole codex for each of them.

Are you talking about Blood Angels? Taking the worst example of it and picking a dex that was handled poorly isn't an accurate picture of what it can and should be. Take a look at other factions that have expanded out from their main faction into a dex of their own. Death Guard and TSons, Genestealer Cults, Harlequins, even Dark Angels, these dexes are great. You are conflating an example of bad balance with bad overall design and acting as though it means these dexes are bad, it's most definitely untrue to say that these dexes haven't added a ton of unique and fun options, even if sometimes they whiff, that's a GW balance thing and it's present for dexes that aren't expansions as well. Take a look at Necrons for example.

Headlss wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I want a gold-plated toilet, but it's just not on the cards.

Your worries seem, to me, to be completely overblown and lacking any sort of accord with reality. If you had a Tzeentch or Nurgle CSM force using C:CSM before, you still have one. As far as I can tell, Ahriman and Typhus are the only units lost and both can be run as something else. So, at worst, the evidence suggests that a Slaanesh or Khorne CSM force from C:CSM (8.5/9.0) would lose access to Lucius and Kharn.

True, none of the Codex <Legion> Detachments would interact with C:CSM Detachments all that much or all that well, but that's a different issue altogether.

That's you wanting new rules for free.

I don't want them free. I already paid for them twice. I paid for them in the main rule book. I paid for them in the Chaos Marine book. I don't want to have to pay for it a third time.

If you have the Nurgle and Tzench books and you find that they have good and permissive synergies with Codex deamon, and codex choas Marines, you could just say that.

What absolute rot.

You paid for the rues in the Rulebok and you paid for the rules in C:CSM, both of which you can still use without restriction.

You haven't paid for any expanded EC/WE rules.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Headlss wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo

A new dex doesn't add unique and fun options.

*Looks at Death Guard* No, totally. For sure. I totally see how having a new dex hasn't added anything unique or fun.

Headlss wrote:
It locks your armies up behind gates. How many cool powers and ablities won't work with Death Guard or Thousand Sons because they are their own completely separate legion? I know there were a bunch of them listed in the Chaos Marines tatics thread.

Those armies have their own tables... Thousand Sons have THREE lol... you aren't missing out on powers or abilities lol you are getting your own, tailor made for your army. So much cool stuff in the these dexes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo

How many of those Angels "unqiue" entries are actually unique in function? The answer is only about 3 or 4 of them for each.

It's honestly for their own benefit. Consolidation of the Legions would be a lot harder, but let's not pretend Loyalist Scum chapters are so unique they need a whole codex for each of them.

Are you talking about Blood Angels? Taking the worst example of it and picking a dex that was handled poorly isn't an accurate picture of what it can and should be. Take a look at other factions that have expanded out from their main faction into a dex of their own. Death Guard and TSons, Genestealer Cults, Harlequins, even Dark Angels, these dexes are great. You are conflating an example of bad balance with bad overall design and acting as though it means these dexes are bad, it's most definitely untrue to say that these dexes haven't added a ton of unique and fun options, even if sometimes they whiff, that's a GW balance thing and it's present for dexes that aren't expansions as well. Take a look at Necrons for example.

I'm talking about both Blood and Dark Angels.

With Genestealer Cults I get what you mean, but it would've been relatively easy to handle them with the Guard codex via switching of keywords. Now they get their cake and eat it too because they get the whole AM codex and a bunch of infiltrating units too. When it comes to Marines, the whole separation for no good reason is causing imbalances. They aren't super unique and special, sorry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm talking about both Blood and Dark Angels.

Pretty sure Dark Angels is strong as any other SM marine chapter not named Ultramarines, and has tons of DA flavor in it. Not sure that's a good example at all mate. Yeah, Deathwing suck. What's new, GW sucks at making Terminator's playable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
With Genestealer Cults I get what you mean, but it would've been relatively easy to handle them with the Guard codex via switching of keywords. Now they get their cake and eat it too because they get the whole AM codex and a bunch of infiltrating units too.

.......... so completely removing one of the funnest most unique dexes from the game and turning them into literally a carbon copy of Guard except with a different keyword.... I literally couldn't think of anything that would better exemplify my statement of "Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo"

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
When it comes to Marines, the whole separation for no good reason is causing imbalances. They aren't super unique and special, sorry.

Death Guard and TSons say you're wrong, sorry. Bad writing is causing imbalances. There's literally no reason that BA can't be balanced too, it just wasn't, just like Necrons wasn't, and just like Ad Mech wasn't, etc. It's a massive leap to act like Marines are some special snowflake, especially when evidence proves otherwise.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm talking about both Blood and Dark Angels.

Pretty sure Dark Angels is strong as any other SM marine chapter not named Ultramarines, and has tons of DA flavor in it. Not sure that's a good example at all mate. Yeah, Deathwing suck. What's new, GW sucks at making Terminator's playable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
With Genestealer Cults I get what you mean, but it would've been relatively easy to handle them with the Guard codex via switching of keywords. Now they get their cake and eat it too because they get the whole AM codex and a bunch of infiltrating units too.

.......... so completely removing one of the funnest most unique dexes from the game and turning them into literally a carbon copy of Guard except with a different keyword.... I literally couldn't think of anything that would better exemplify my statement of "Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo"

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
When it comes to Marines, the whole separation for no good reason is causing imbalances. They aren't super unique and special, sorry.

Death Guard and TSons say you're wrong, sorry. Bad writing is causing imbalances. There's literally no reason that BA can't be balanced too, it just wasn't, just like Necrons wasn't, and just like Ad Mech wasn't, etc. It's a massive leap to act like Marines are some special snowflake, especially when evidence proves otherwise.

No, AZRAEL is the only thing defining the army, and you admit there's very little strength in the army. Otherwise, what's different? Ravenwing Bikers are just Bikers with nothing worth noting. The fliers are functionally the same as the Talon and Hawk. Deathwing really are just Terminators without the specialization (which is gonna be done anyway, because nobody builds a squad of one Twin LC, TH/SS, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, and a Sarge with a Power Sword. Nobody).
Consolidation with just a few of the units (only the Knights, the Terminator Champ, and special Speeder) will fix bloat and major balancing issues that come from trying to separate everything as though it really needs an identity.
Same thing with the Blood Angels. The Baal Pred is literally just a Pred with an Assault Cannon option, for example. Consolidate them and the only units they need are Sanguine Priests and Guard and Death Company.

If the guys who are playing death guard and thousand sons say they are unique and interesting 'dexes all on their own. Different from Choas Marines and not artificially restricted.

Then I would be interested to see an emperors childern Codex.

I don't want to see a dark Angels treatment. (I have that book not interested, not different enough to justify its own codex in my opinion.) Blood angles, have 3 eleet selections all competing for the same spot, death watch, Vanguard Vets, and those guys with the wings. They all do the same thing slightly differently and I can't tell which to use where. Thats bloat that should be trimmed. Space wolves no one seems excited about, and as far as I can tell their unique trait is they've got wolves on their wolves (yo dawg, I hear you like wolves.)

Someone asked what army I play. I'm starting an Emperors childern army. I would prefer to play it out of the CSM codex, than to have a unique but lame and restrictive codex.

You keep saying the separation causes imbalances when it just doesn't (Not anymore than any other source of imbalance in the hands of GW rules writer, so basically, everything else), and you keep calling it bloat when it isnt because they are their separated Codex. If you don't want it just don't buy it. Bloat is when you need 6 books to play one army.

Vigilus is bloat. White Dwarfs with rules are bloat, having a Dark Angels and a SM Codex isn't.

Babar_babar wrote:
I do have the same "problems" I woudl love to start an EC army, does anyone know about female minis to proxy some cultists?

Victoria miniatures?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm talking about both Blood and Dark Angels.

Pretty sure Dark Angels is strong as any other SM marine chapter not named Ultramarines, and has tons of DA flavor in it. Not sure that's a good example at all mate. Yeah, Deathwing suck. What's new, GW sucks at making Terminator's playable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
With Genestealer Cults I get what you mean, but it would've been relatively easy to handle them with the Guard codex via switching of keywords. Now they get their cake and eat it too because they get the whole AM codex and a bunch of infiltrating units too.

.......... so completely removing one of the funnest most unique dexes from the game and turning them into literally a carbon copy of Guard except with a different keyword.... I literally couldn't think of anything that would better exemplify my statement of "Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo"

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
When it comes to Marines, the whole separation for no good reason is causing imbalances. They aren't super unique and special, sorry.

Death Guard and TSons say you're wrong, sorry. Bad writing is causing imbalances. There's literally no reason that BA can't be balanced too, it just wasn't, just like Necrons wasn't, and just like Ad Mech wasn't, etc. It's a massive leap to act like Marines are some special snowflake, especially when evidence proves otherwise.

No, AZRAEL is the only thing defining the army, and you admit there's very little strength in the army. Otherwise, what's different? Ravenwing Bikers are just Bikers with nothing worth noting. The fliers are functionally the same as the Talon and Hawk. Deathwing really are just Terminators without the specialization (which is gonna be done anyway, because nobody builds a squad of one Twin LC, TH/SS, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, and a Sarge with a Power Sword. Nobody).
Consolidation with just a few of the units (only the Knights, the Terminator Champ, and special Speeder) will fix bloat and major balancing issues that come from trying to separate everything as though it really needs an identity.
Same thing with the Blood Angels. The Baal Pred is literally just a Pred with an Assault Cannon option, for example. Consolidate them and the only units they need are Sanguine Priests and Guard and Death Company.

yeah and death guard are just bloat, I mean plague marines could just be generic chaos marines! death guard termies? well why should they have differant rules.

ya know why? why bother with a space marine codex at all, let's just toss in rules for a tactical squad that can take up to 5 heavy weapons or swap their bolt guns for a chainsword and jump pack, toss it in codex imperial guard and call it a day!

Babar_babar wrote:
I do have the same "problems" I woudl love to start an EC army, does anyone know about female minis to proxy some cultists?

I've been thinking of picking up some a box of the necromunda escher gang, a box of dark eldar and/or daughters of khaine wychhes, witch elves and mixing em all together. Further I've wanted to get a couple boxes of beastmen and mixing them with neophyte hybrids and other 40k bits and having a crazy looking few units of cultists.

DA aren't a very unique army fluff wise, unsurprising that their rules while thematic, still feel like tangent-Marines - they probably are even less unique in combat style than a chapter like Iron Hands or something. For what it is, the dex is fine, captures what few unique stuff the army does have, and isn't a reflection at all on balance or design being impossible for Marine offshoots for actual vastly different forces like EC, Tsons, DGuard, etc.

Headlss wrote:
I hope they don't do Emperors Childern or the Khorn legion. All 4 mono god trator legions should be 3 or 4 pages each inside the chaos marine book. A troop choice a unique HQ and 1 or 2 other unique units. Thats its. Thats all thats needed if ypu want to play them.

Unique 'dexs are a customer punishing marketing strategy. It sucks having armies locked behind gates. You shouldn't need to "unlock" armies.

The OP didn't ask what you wanted. He asked whether or not he should wait, and nothing about your post attempts to answer that question. You've taken this thread wildly off topic by starting a debate that's already happened many times before in more appropriate threads. Shame on you.

^^ Thank you. Sick of seeing people start arguments about whether EC and WE "deserve" a codex, by jaded bitter fans upset that their own factions didn't pan out the way they dreamed, and anti-GW crusaders who see everything fun and new as "consumer unfriendly!". If you don't like it, jog on out of the thread, the discussion was about building an EC army going forward.

I wouldn't expect a third cult legion until the end of the year at the earliest, though that's almost entirely speculation. Remember that Adepta Sororitas are getting a huge slot somewhere between now and December so any speculation about what else is coming along needs to account for the space already filled by them.

I expect the other two cult legions will get their due at some point given how successful both the Thousand Sons and Death Guard releases were, but it's entirely possible it's something that's just "in the future" and isn't on an official calendar currently. Even if EC were to come soon, the only models that would likely be replaced entirely would be Noise Marines; you would lose access to certain other units that would be difficult to predict, of course.

 SHUPPET wrote:
^^ Thank you. Sick of seeing people start arguments about whether EC and WE "deserve" a codex, by jaded bitter fans upset that their own factions didn't pan out the way they dreamed, and anti-GW crusaders who see everything fun and new as "consumer unfriendly!". If you don't like it, jog on out of the thread, the discussion was about building an EC army going forward.

Bam mic drop! exalted!


I cant wait for the other 2 gods to get their pet legions codecies. I'm currently building a Flawless Host warband but as soon as the IIIrd get bespoke new models & demongrim, A full EC army for me it will be.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm talking about both Blood and Dark Angels.

Pretty sure Dark Angels is strong as any other SM marine chapter not named Ultramarines, and has tons of DA flavor in it. Not sure that's a good example at all mate. Yeah, Deathwing suck. What's new, GW sucks at making Terminator's playable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
With Genestealer Cults I get what you mean, but it would've been relatively easy to handle them with the Guard codex via switching of keywords. Now they get their cake and eat it too because they get the whole AM codex and a bunch of infiltrating units too.

.......... so completely removing one of the funnest most unique dexes from the game and turning them into literally a carbon copy of Guard except with a different keyword.... I literally couldn't think of anything that would better exemplify my statement of "Getting rid of unique and fun options is worse for the game imo"

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
When it comes to Marines, the whole separation for no good reason is causing imbalances. They aren't super unique and special, sorry.

Death Guard and TSons say you're wrong, sorry. Bad writing is causing imbalances. There's literally no reason that BA can't be balanced too, it just wasn't, just like Necrons wasn't, and just like Ad Mech wasn't, etc. It's a massive leap to act like Marines are some special snowflake, especially when evidence proves otherwise.

No, AZRAEL is the only thing defining the army, and you admit there's very little strength in the army. Otherwise, what's different? Ravenwing Bikers are just Bikers with nothing worth noting. The fliers are functionally the same as the Talon and Hawk. Deathwing really are just Terminators without the specialization (which is gonna be done anyway, because nobody builds a squad of one Twin LC, TH/SS, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, and a Sarge with a Power Sword. Nobody).
Consolidation with just a few of the units (only the Knights, the Terminator Champ, and special Speeder) will fix bloat and major balancing issues that come from trying to separate everything as though it really needs an identity.
Same thing with the Blood Angels. The Baal Pred is literally just a Pred with an Assault Cannon option, for example. Consolidate them and the only units they need are Sanguine Priests and Guard and Death Company.

yeah and death guard are just bloat, I mean plague marines could just be generic chaos marines! death guard termies? well why should they have differant rules.

ya know why? why bother with a space marine codex at all, let's just toss in rules for a tactical squad that can take up to 5 heavy weapons or swap their bolt guns for a chainsword and jump pack, toss it in codex imperial guard and call it a day!

Seeing as there didn't NEED to be two separate Terminator entries you're not that far off the mark, actually.
Also because of the way Death Guard had certain units treated, the codex does need to be looked at again or consolidated. I like the layout because it's actually a different codex compared to the Angels, but the inconsistencies are ridiculous. You can't deny that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
DA aren't a very unique army fluff wise, unsurprising that their rules while thematic, still feel like tangent-Marines - they probably are even less unique in combat style than a chapter like Iron Hands or something. For what it is, the dex is fine, captures what few unique stuff the army does have, and isn't a reflection at all on balance or design being impossible for Marine offshoots for actual vastly different forces like EC, Tsons, DGuard, etc.

And you bring up the "unique" units, most of which aren't really that unique. For example, the Ravenwing Champ is no different to the basic Company Champ on a bike to be honest. That is why I'm only for keeping 4 units (the Knights, the Speeder, and the Deathwing Champ), and consolidation. Certain units and wargear not being available just because (Dark Angels not having TFCs and Centurions is silly). A simple 3-4 unique units for each Chapter is just for their own benefit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
You keep saying the separation causes imbalances when it just doesn't (Not anymore than any other source of imbalance in the hands of GW rules writer, so basically, everything else), and you keep calling it bloat when it isnt because they are their separated Codex. If you don't want it just don't buy it. Bloat is when you need 6 books to play one army.

Vigilus is bloat. White Dwarfs with rules are bloat, having a Dark Angels and a SM Codex isn't.

It is bloat, because it's all based around the same exact few units, and they're all balanced around being Ultramarines with Roboute when you look at the prices. Rules upon rules for the sake of rules is exactly what the Angels are and have been since the inception of Angels of Death.

except why arer dark angels etc bloat but devestator marines not bloat? why not just have tac marines, assault marines and devestators in one entry?