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2019/04/12 06:58:15
Subject: And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
But if you don't find it amazing it just proves the earlier point about people's intelligence, if they can't comprehend the gravity (sorry) of such an achievement.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2019/04/12 07:15:58
Subject: Re:And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
The Dunning-Kruger effect speaks to competence, not intelligence. You can be very smart and not be competent in any number of things, and astrophysics is a pretty dense field.
Remember, Dunning-Kruger cuts both ways: incompetent people don't realize they're incompetent at stuff, but highly competent people don't realize how complex a subject they are an SME on is to non-experts. I do that all the time with IT stuff, I assume it's all very straightforward but for the normies, it really isn't.
I don't think I'm dumb but I didn't know that there was a giant black hole at the center of our own galaxy as well until yesterday.
I don't mean competent or incompetent as insults here, I want to be clear - we could use "qualified and unqualified" as synonyms in this context.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/12 07:25:31
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2019/04/12 07:37:22
Subject: Re:And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/12 07:40:24
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2019/04/12 08:14:46
Subject: Re:And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Ouze wrote: The Dunning-Kruger effect speaks to competence, not intelligence. You can be very smart and not be competent in any number of things, and astrophysics is a pretty dense field.
Remember, Dunning-Kruger cuts both ways: incompetent people don't realize they're incompetent at stuff, but highly competent people don't realize how complex a subject they are an SME on is to non-experts. I do that all the time with IT stuff, I assume it's all very straightforward but for the normies, it really isn't.
I don't think I'm dumb but I didn't know that there was a giant black hole at the center of our own galaxy as well until yesterday.
I don't mean competent or incompetent as insults here, I want to be clear - we could use "qualified and unqualified" as synonyms in this context.
Yeah. You know what I'm getting at though. They think they know more than doctors and scientists.
It's the same when for me when people talk about IEDs or landmines online.. You know the old step on but can't step off again landmines from behind enemy lines? Yeah they totally exist dude...
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2019/04/12 10:58:17
Subject: Re:And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
What we are seeing is the distortion of the background light due to the mass of the blackhole in the way (like types of lenses). This of course does not reduce the technical aspects of the work, however it is a bit pre-emptive to state that we have 'seen' the Black Hole.
It also explains why the image is not more 'thrilling', because the 'glow' is just 'background' glow that has been 'lensed' and 'distorted' by the mass infront of it. We are not looking at the actual environment of the blackhole per se.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
2019/04/12 22:13:45
Subject: Re:And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Here's a video explaining that bit — the black centre part in the middle of the image not being the event horizon — in slightly more details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUyH3XhpLTo
2019/04/12 23:53:05
Subject: And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
It now has a name, Powehi. It comes from a Hawaiian myth of creation and means "embellished dark source of unending creation". Strange to think what we are looking at is actually it 56 million years ago.
Help me, Rhonda. HA!
2019/04/13 02:07:39
Subject: Re:And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Astronomers collaborated with renowned UH at Hilo Ka Haka ʻUla O Keʻelikōlani Hawaiian language professor and cultural practitioner Larry Kimura for the Hawaiian naming of the black hole. Pōwehi, meaning embellished dark source of unending creation, is a name sourced from the Kumulipo, the primordial chant describing the creation of the Hawaiian universe. Pō, profound dark source of unending creation, is a concept emphasized and repeated in the Kumulipo, while wehi, or wehiwehi, honored with embellishments, is one of many descriptions of pō in the chant.
At the time that turned the heat of the earth,
At the time when the heavens turned and changed,
At the time when the light of the sun was subdued
To cause light to break forth,
At the time of the night of Makalii (winter)
Then began the slime which established the earth,
The source of deepest darkness, of the depth of darkness,
The source of Night, of the depth of night
Of the depth of darkness,
Of the darkness of the sun in the depth of night,
Night is come,
Born is Night
The second section, containing the remaining nine wā, is ao and is signaled by the arrival of light and the gods, who watch over the changing of animals into the first humans. After that is the complex genealogy of Kalaninuiamamao that goes all the way to the late 18th century.
We getting esoteric here now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 02:08:07
2019/04/13 09:25:41
Subject: Re:And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Gael Knight wrote: Sad to see that people can't just appreciate this cool thing and have to show off what big brains they have on a toy soldier forum.
The vastness of this alone is mind bending.
I was teasing. Anyway that's what 50 'astronomical units' so distance between earth and the sun? That's quite massive.
To put the Solar system into context there here is a image that overlays it's diameter over the image
The region is truly massive (and the event horizon if smaller is still huge).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gael Knight wrote: Sad to see that people can't just appreciate this cool thing and have to show off what big brains they have on a toy soldier forum.
The vastness of this alone is mind bending.
Yes it is. However, it is not a case of showing off. It is important that everyone has the actual facts. Otherwise it can genuinely cause fatigue with the populace as a whole over time (and also generates cynicism). At some point we will probably get an actual image of a blackhole (or really its very local horizon/environment). The general lay person will not know the difference between this image and another (likely pixelated image) of the local environments of a black hole etc and that can result in the public not truly understanding the enormity of the achievement. Each piece of work is highly skilled piece of work but should be advertised for what it is rather than 'exaggerate' the claim.
A better claim would be "Direct Evidence of the a highly massive, but dark object in the centre of a galaxy"; but it does not quite have the same ring as "First picture of a black hole". The former is more accurate, the latter is broader for effect but can lead to a public's misintepretation of what they are looking at (i.e. the dark internal 'smudge' is not the black hole).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/13 09:36:11
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
2019/04/13 09:48:35
Subject: And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Gael Knight wrote: Sad to see that people can't just appreciate this cool thing and have to show off what big brains they have on a toy soldier forum.
The vastness of this alone is mind bending.
YMMV, but doesn’t it make it even more wonderful if you know more about this phenomenon? I mean, the picture itself isn’t very interesting; it’s only once you know what’s going on that the majesty of it all hits home.
2019/04/13 12:41:22
Subject: Re:And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Every time real science is done ( with observations ) I celebrate a little
Now, if I could only find a way to hook my old, dying phone to that black hole, maybe its vast amount of energy will keep the thing powered for more than 10 minutes at a time!!
Ayn Rand "We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality"
2019/04/14 10:09:52
Subject: And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Would be nice to know how this pic was done. Some formula was needed and enormous amount of raw data. Stacks upon stacks of hard drive"s worth of data. That's...lots of data!
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/04/14 10:53:29
Subject: And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
tneva82 wrote: Would be nice to know how this pic was done. Some formula was needed and enormous amount of raw data. Stacks upon stacks of hard drive"s worth of data. That's...lots of data!
Basically, each of the observatories involved took a measurement of M87 at the exact same time. These observatories are positioned all over the world. You then use the time difference between the received signal at each observatory (due to some being further away than others, resulting in a time delay due to the speed of light) to sync up the observations, which gives you more photons gathered at each time step of the observation. This effectively allows you to create a virtual telescope with an aperture equal to the maximum difference between the telescopes. With this one that was pretty much the diameter of the Earth. That huge aperture gives you huge light gathering capability, which is incredibly important in astronomy as your light gathering capability is directly linked to your maximum useful magnification and resolution.
The syncing up of the images is carried out using an algorithm and a lot of computing time, considering the huge amount of data which is used.
So, like an ultrasonic array probe FMC imaging technique. I know how those work, cool!
I'm actually a little surprised this hasn't been done before. The algorithms for this kind of triangulation have been around for a while, being used in among others seismology, and more recently ultrasonic weld inspection (I qualified the system our company developed to DNV standard, for example).
Maybe it wasn't done because of the computing power required? And I imagine syncing up a bunch of radio telescopes scattered across the world is somewhat more complicated than firing off ultrasonic elements.
2019/04/14 13:04:10
Subject: And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Bran Dawri wrote: So, like an ultrasonic array probe FMC imaging technique. I know how those work, cool! I'm actually a little surprised this hasn't been done before. The algorithms for this kind of triangulation have been around for a while, being used in among others seismology, and more recently ultrasonic weld inspection (I qualified the system our company developed to DNV standard, for example). Maybe it wasn't done because of the computing power required? And I imagine syncing up a bunch of radio telescopes scattered across the world is somewhat more complicated than firing off ultrasonic elements.
That and the issue of weather. If you do not have good conditions over your telescope, then its observation is not going to be helpful, which can then limit the maximum difference between your observatories, affecting the aperture of the virtual scope. The observation for this image was made in 2017 on a day when it just so happened to have good conditions at all the observatories, and it has then taken two years to carry out the computations to get the image and do all the double checking of the results etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/14 13:05:16
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2019/04/15 06:58:02
Subject: And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Bran Dawri wrote: So, like an ultrasonic array probe FMC imaging technique. I know how those work, cool!
I'm actually a little surprised this hasn't been done before. The algorithms for this kind of triangulation have been around for a while, being used in among others seismology, and more recently ultrasonic weld inspection (I qualified the system our company developed to DNV standard, for example).
Maybe it wasn't done because of the computing power required? And I imagine syncing up a bunch of radio telescopes scattered across the world is somewhat more complicated than firing off ultrasonic elements.
Well apparantely the algorithm needed for this was came up couple years ago.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/04/15 11:55:35
Subject: And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Bran Dawri wrote: So, like an ultrasonic array probe FMC imaging technique. I know how those work, cool!
I'm actually a little surprised this hasn't been done before. The algorithms for this kind of triangulation have been around for a while, being used in among others seismology, and more recently ultrasonic weld inspection (I qualified the system our company developed to DNV standard, for example).
Maybe it wasn't done because of the computing power required? And I imagine syncing up a bunch of radio telescopes scattered across the world is somewhat more complicated than firing off ultrasonic elements.
That and the issue of weather. If you do not have good conditions over your telescope, then its observation is not going to be helpful, which can then limit the maximum difference between your observatories, affecting the aperture of the virtual scope. The observation for this image was made in 2017 on a day when it just so happened to have good conditions at all the observatories, and it has then taken two years to carry out the computations to get the image and do all the double checking of the results etc.
Part of that was because there are petabytes of data from each individual observatory (that's thousands of terabytes, or millions of gigabytes), they couldn't send it over the internet and had to physically fly the hard drives to one location. One of the obervatories is in Antarctica, and was cut off by bad weather for six months and they couldn't get a flight out.
2019/04/17 16:10:46
Subject: Re:And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
Unfortunately I have to make this comment, and I might get dinged for it, but, here goes...
This achievement has shown me just how uneducated, and poorly reasoned our society has become. Just reading through some of the comments today, listening to the media coverage has made my ears and eyes bleed. It's amazing how out of touch the public is with very simple science.
I'm actually curious as to what you mean? Like, you obviously seem to have some genuine knowledge/interest in the subject. Do you mean the "hole" part of the name confusing people? Much like how darkmatter isn't actually just stuff that's black but a sort of catchall term for a spectrum of stuff in the galaxy we don't quite understand yet. But then you see it in sci-fi as some sort of weapon material.
The general public reaction to this in news article comment sections has been terrible. People can't grasp why the image is so pixelated, or what the process was in recording this image. I've seen some of the most bat guano crazy statements about this out there, from people claiming it to be fake, to people claiming that it is a conspiracy. A local radio program yesterday (where my parents live) had a Scientist from UMKC on to talk about the discovery. After the segment was over, the two hosts began to make statements about the scientists "common sense." I'm not sure what the term for that is, but it's when a person feels intimidated by another, and so they try and belittle them for the thing that makes them feel inferior. It seems to me, as someone who has been involved in this field for many years, that each year that passes gets worse and worse for general science knowledge in the public. If you go to any NASA site that allows comments, 70% of the comments will be nonsensical, insane rantings, or cries of conspiracy. Probably because the internet has given people of lower ability spaces to congregate and share their ideas.
Another story I can share involves a Doctor my mother works with. I was speaking with him about another Astronomical topic last time I was home. I was amazed that someone who has set through college physics, couldn't grasp a simple concept (interferometry). Not even on a mathematical level, but on a conceptual level. It was truly a disheartening experience.
The dunning kruger effect springs to mind although it's not exactly what you described. It's basically because people have access to so much information nowadays they believe they are better informed than most experts on that chosen subject. Seen in large quantities in 'anti vax moms' who'd rather trust 'their own research' than science.
No doubt. I just saw a comment on social media this morning in which a man said and I quote "I don't trust big pharma and vaccines can kill, so to hell with your "herd" immunity, I'll protect my child, even if it might mean yours will get sick and die from some infection later on."
2019/04/18 08:04:04
Subject: And now for Science! First ever actual picture of a black hole care of MIT
An effect which is not helped by constant reports of "a new study shows" followed by something either outrageous or blindingly obvious when the referenced study showed or was intended for nothing remotely like the report claims.
14000
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Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
