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From what I've read, the Eldar were likely superior in technology to the DAOT Mankind, but specifically in their use of psychic tech. But the Eldar had no major reason to fight humanity back then.
The Galaxy is big. Ludicrously big. Incredibly incomprehensibly big. You don't draw a circle around territory in the galaxy, because most of it is empty space and empty star systems. Empires are identified by the worlds and star systems that they own. The Ancient Eldar wouldn't have cared what humans did, as long as the Humans didn't bother anything. There's more than enough territory throughout the galaxy for humans to have planets. By the time the advanced part of humanity started to really get near the Eldar in effective strength, neither had any reason to fight.
Sure the Eldar have webway gates all over, but that doesn't mean they felt like every planet with a gate was property. most of them are just secret doors. And hell, wasn't the webway built by the Old Ones anyway? The Eldar are just squatters who know how to maintain and upgrade it (unless that got retconned).
The Eldar challenge the Imperium now, because they have reasons to fight. The eldar that are left are either dark eldar who steal slaves, or craftworld eldar who wander around destroying humans who bother their wierd prophecies, or they're after humans who bother exodite worlds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 19:25:17
argonak wrote: From what I've read, the Eldar were likely superior in technology to the DAOT Mankind, but specifically in their use of psychic tech. But the Eldar had no major reason to fight humanity back then.
You're thinking like a human, not like an Eldar.
Eldar would have had good reason to fight Humanity, if they were a challenge; the Eldar were bored. They'd do (and did) anything for a challenge. There was no challenge in the galaxy. That's core to their Fall.
The Galaxy is big. Ludicrously big. Incredibly incomprehensibly big. You don't draw a circle around territory in the galaxy, because most of it is empty space and empty star systems. Empires are identified by the worlds and star systems that they own. The Ancient Eldar wouldn't have cared what humans did, as long as the Humans didn't bother anything. There's more than enough territory throughout the galaxy for humans to have planets. By the time the advanced part of humanity started to really get near the Eldar in effective strength, neither had any reason to fight.
If Mankind advanced to get anywhere close to Eldar, perhaps Mankind would not have had reason to fight. But if Mankind advanced anywhere close to Eldar, The Eldar would have reason to fight. To put Mankind back in their place. For the challenge. For the fun of it.
Sure the Eldar have webway gates all over, but that doesn't mean they felt like every planet with a gate was property. most of them are just secret doors. And hell, wasn't the webway built by the Old Ones anyway? The Eldar are just squatters who know how to maintain and upgrade it (unless that got retconned).
Yes - the Old Ones created the Webway. But the Old Ones were gone long before Human development - it was Eldar who were interested in that, not Old Ones.
The Eldar challenge the Imperium now, because they have reasons to fight. The eldar that are left are either dark eldar who steal slaves, or craftworld eldar who wander around destroying humans who bother their wierd prophecies, or they're after humans who bother exodite worlds.
Note that Biel Tan will/would have picked fights with IoM to expand territory; they wanted to bring about a new Eldar Empire more than most, despite not really being strong enough to.
Bharring wrote: What is canon is that the Fall happened because the Eldar were not challenged in the galaxy.
What is also canon is that the DAoT happened before the Fall.
Further, it is also canon that Eldar interacted with Mankind pre-fall. Substantially.
Therefore, regardless of the details, the DAoT did not challenge the Eldar empire.
The Imperium and Eldar interact in the 41st mellenium, doesn't mean that the Eldar don't challange the Imperium. You don;t even know what the interaction entailed. They did not interact substantially though.
Eldar "challenge" the IoM all the time. Fights between the two happen regularly.
As for interaction during the DAoT, we know:
1. The Eldar were present in the Sol system
2. The Eldar studied Mankind's development
3. The Eldar were not challenged before the Fall
4. The Fall happened long after the DAoT
It's hard to accept that the Eldar were in the Sol system, were looking for a challenge, interacted with Mankind during DAoT, didn't find a challege in the DAoT, but somehow the Eldar couldn't stand up to DAoT. Obviously, at least one of those must be bunk - and DAoT standing up to pre-Fall Eldar is the only one that isn't supported in the fluff.
"The eldar challange the Imperium all the time" yeah that's my point.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable. I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
pm713 wrote: So if you don't like it it's bs lore?
No that's a complete strawman, I said explicitly said that I concede to it, it's just in my opinion not well written lore. I mean the Eldar empire was unlike any other in is technological achievements but to say that they were indomitable, especially considering post fall eldar just seems a bit like codex bias. Especially when the Necrons technology rivals the Eldars.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 10:08:08
At its inception, the Necron paused a threat to the Eldar Empire. In fact, the Necrons were the last menace to the Eldar's dominion over the galaxy. before the Fall. It's also a menace they triumphed from. The Necrons were too weakened by their war against the C'tan and preferred to retreat and hide more than risk to fight the Eldars.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 11:13:07
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
It could also be that they spanned the galaxy with their empire, too, yet simply had some of that volume interrupted by the existence of Orks accross various sections. Elsewhere the Eye of Terror is described as being merely "the heart" of their empire. This would be the same situation as the Imperium would be later. The Imperium also "spans the galaxy", but there's a lot of territory taken up by Orks or other races that the Imperium either hasnt fully conquered, or bypassed by mistake or disinterest. Likewise the Imperium has its own "heart" and fringes.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable. I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
Obviously no empire is indestructible, it was just the case during their reign that no other faction threatened them, to the extent that the Eldar themselves became their own worst enemy. And by the time of the Fall that empire may have been "spanning the galaxy" for millions of years prior.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
Of course the Necrons posed a serious threat to the Eldar Empire - that was the War in Heaven. But the Eldar side won, and the Necrons withdrew - at which points the Necrons no longer posed a serious threat.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable.
Except that we know "their part of the galaxy" included areas all over the galaxy. *Including* the Sol system.
I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
The entire Fall is bs if they *were* paralleled - or even close - pre-Fall.
That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Is it me or just from these quotes, the ancient Eldar Empire has become more and more powerful and dominant in the fluff as edition passed?
Yeah and they have become more and more powerful on the table top. SM's are GW poster boys, but we all know most of GW play Eldar lol
The wording might be stronger, but the birth of Slanesh is not new fluff - and only makes sense if the Eldar were unaparalleled masters of the galaxy.
As for poster boys or favored sons, Eldar are not. Their rules are OP, but their model support is garbage (especially compared to Marines), and Bolter Porn always has them losing badly (especially compared to Marines) - even when they're the protagonists.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
Of course the Necrons posed a serious threat to the Eldar Empire - that was the War in Heaven. But the Eldar side won, and the Necrons withdrew - at which points the Necrons no longer posed a serious threat.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable.
Except that we know "their part of the galaxy" included areas all over the galaxy. *Including* the Sol system.
I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
The entire Fall is bs if they *were* paralleled - or even close - pre-Fall.
That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Is it me or just from these quotes, the ancient Eldar Empire has become more and more powerful and dominant in the fluff as edition passed?
Yeah and they have become more and more powerful on the table top. SM's are GW poster boys, but we all know most of GW play Eldar lol
The wording might be stronger, but the birth of Slanesh is not new fluff - and only makes sense if the Eldar were unaparalleled masters of the galaxy.
As for poster boys or favored sons, Eldar are not. Their rules are OP, but their model support is garbage (especially compared to Marines), and Bolter Porn always has them losing badly (especially compared to Marines) - even when they're the protagonists.
GW are IoM fanboys, not Eldar fanboys.
They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China. So no it didn't reach the Sol system.
"That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar." complete conjecture.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 13:46:35
Delvarus Centurion wrote: [They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China.
No, Alexander the great couldn't go to China or Russia because people don't let foreign armies and generals pass trough their territory unopposed. It's also good to note that there are webway gates, Eldar ruins, Maiden and Exodite Worlds in all Segmentum of the galaxy (let alone their massive fleets) which implies that even though the heart of the Eldar Empire was in the region now known as the Eye of Terror, they had territory well outside it.
When you have an unparalleled mastery of the galaxy, you don't have rivals. The US don't have a unparalleled mastery of Earth, yet no single country can hope to defeat it. Now imagine a country even more powerful, let say a country that would have the power of the entire Western World combined, that's something closer to an unparalleled mastery of Earth.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: [They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China.
No, Alexander the great couldn't go to China or Russia because people don't let foreign armies and generals pass trough their territory unopposed. It's also good to note that there are webway gates, Eldar ruins, Maiden and Exodite Worlds in all Segmentum of the galaxy (let alone their massive fleets) which implies that even though the heart of the Eldar Empire was in the region now known as the Eye of Terror, they had territory well outside it.
When you have an unparalleled mastery of the galaxy, you don't have rivals. The US don't have a unparalleled mastery of Earth, yet no single country can hope to defeat it. Now imagine a country even more powerful, let say a country that would have the power of the entire Western World combined, that's something closer to an unparalleled mastery of Earth.
"No, Alexander the great couldn't go to China or Russia because people don't let foreign armies and generals pass trough their territory unopposed. "
Nonsense, Alexandra didn't go there because he didn't know those places existed, Alexander conquered everywhere he went after leaving Greece.
Maiden worlds were not apart of the Empire, the exodites left the empire. The empire was solely withing the eye. Just like rogue traders traverse the outer rims of the galaxy but they aren't considered in the Imperium until those worlds make contact, pay taxes and tithes etc. I mean its ridiculous if someone from the Imperium decides to leave and go to the outer rims of the galaxy, then that extends the Empire, again ridiculous.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:14:43
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
Of course the Necrons posed a serious threat to the Eldar Empire - that was the War in Heaven. But the Eldar side won, and the Necrons withdrew - at which points the Necrons no longer posed a serious threat.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable.
Except that we know "their part of the galaxy" included areas all over the galaxy. *Including* the Sol system.
I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
The entire Fall is bs if they *were* paralleled - or even close - pre-Fall.
That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Is it me or just from these quotes, the ancient Eldar Empire has become more and more powerful and dominant in the fluff as edition passed?
Yeah and they have become more and more powerful on the table top. SM's are GW poster boys, but we all know most of GW play Eldar lol
The wording might be stronger, but the birth of Slanesh is not new fluff - and only makes sense if the Eldar were unaparalleled masters of the galaxy.
As for poster boys or favored sons, Eldar are not. Their rules are OP, but their model support is garbage (especially compared to Marines), and Bolter Porn always has them losing badly (especially compared to Marines) - even when they're the protagonists.
GW are IoM fanboys, not Eldar fanboys.
They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China. So no it didn't reach the Sol system.
I'm not saying their *Empire* "reached" Sol - I'm saying the Eldar themselves did. Meaning they had exposure to Mankind pre-fall. Meaning that it's not a simple case of the Eldar not knowing about DAoT. Meaning that, if DAoT could have been a challenge, the Eldar would have known.
"That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar." complete conjecture.
The fall ending dominance/begetting the campaign: Canon.
The Fall happening because the Eldar were unchallenged: Canon.
Eldar being present in the Sol system: Canon.
Eldar being exposed to Mankind: Canon.
"Conjecture":
If DAoT Mankind were to challenge the Eldar, they were not unchallenged.
I'd say that's a fairly safe conclusion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:20:43
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Significant doesn't mean spanned the galaxy, the eye of terror is a significant portion of the galaxy; however, mankind have spanned the whole galaxy.
I think the person that wrote that is getting ahead of themselves, the necrons posed a serious threat towards the Eldar Empire.
Of course the Necrons posed a serious threat to the Eldar Empire - that was the War in Heaven. But the Eldar side won, and the Necrons withdrew - at which points the Necrons no longer posed a serious threat.
The Aeldari being unparalleled masters of the galaxy before the fall. Sure I can see that but they were never tested and if the necrons woke up on mass at once, they would not be the masters of the galaxy. That's just Matt Ward type lore lol. They stayed in there part of the galaxy and were never significantly attacked yet they are defacto untouchable.
Except that we know "their part of the galaxy" included areas all over the galaxy. *Including* the Sol system.
I'll concede to that lore but its bs. Though unparalleled doesn't mean indestructible, they just have more odds than the rest of the galaxies species, I can see that.
The entire Fall is bs if they *were* paralleled - or even close - pre-Fall.
That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar.
Insectum7 wrote: "The Eldar civilization held dominion over a significant portion of the galaxy" 2nd ed codex, pg. 14
". . .no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth and stability for countless millenia." 4th ed codex, pg.4
The Aeldari are unparalleled masters of the galaxy. (before the fall) 7th ed codex, pg 26.
Is it me or just from these quotes, the ancient Eldar Empire has become more and more powerful and dominant in the fluff as edition passed?
Yeah and they have become more and more powerful on the table top. SM's are GW poster boys, but we all know most of GW play Eldar lol
The wording might be stronger, but the birth of Slanesh is not new fluff - and only makes sense if the Eldar were unaparalleled masters of the galaxy.
As for poster boys or favored sons, Eldar are not. Their rules are OP, but their model support is garbage (especially compared to Marines), and Bolter Porn always has them losing badly (especially compared to Marines) - even when they're the protagonists.
GW are IoM fanboys, not Eldar fanboys.
They didn't span the whole galaxy, this has been covered. And NO their webway reached the sol system that is all. Being able to travel to a place doesn't mean its a part of your Empire, Alexander the Great could of travelled to Russia and China, that doesn't mean the Greek Empire reached Russia or China. So no it didn't reach the Sol system.
I'm not saying their *Empire* "reached" Sol - I'm saying the Eldar themselves did. Meaning they had exposure to Mankind pre-fall. Meaning that it's not a simple case of the Eldar not knowing about DAoT. Meaning that, if DAoT could have been a challenge, the Eldar would have known.
"That is probably the most poignant piece; the most pivotal event in all of 40k history - The Fall, which ended Eldar dominance, and begat the Crusade - could not have happened if DAoT Mankind threatened the Eldar." complete conjecture.
The fall ending dominance/begetting the campaign: Canon.
The Fall happening because the Eldar were unchallenged: Canon.
Eldar being present in the Sol system: Canon.
Eldar being exposed to Mankind: Canon.
"Conjecture":
If DAoT Mankind were to challenge the Eldar, they were not unchallenged.
I'd say that's a fairly safe conclusion.
No one said the eldar didn't know about mankind during the DAOT.
The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Them being present at the sol system is completely irrelevant
No one said they weren't exposed to Mankind..
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:24:12
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
How about Exodite world in other Segmentum. Some were devoured by Hive Fleet Naga which was in Ultima Segmentum or those defended by Biel-Tan in the Pacificus?
PS: The Hellenistic Empire traded with several Indian and Chinese kingdoms. They also knew about Scythia with which they both traded and against whome they waged war several times, in modern Ukraine and Russia, and never conquered it either. Of course, they also knew the Romans and the Carthaginians. You don't seem to know much about hellenistic Grece. I suggest you use a more familiar period for your analogies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:28:56
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
How about Exodite world in other Segmentum. Some were devoured by Hive Fleet Naga which was in Ultima Segmentum?
Read the thread Maiden worlds spanned the galaxy the EMPIRE did not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:26:01
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
Insectum7 wrote: The idea of Eldar fighting Orks as a challenge is like the US military being "challenged" by a herd of cattle.
The orks are 'the' dominant species in the galaxy. Look at the eldar now, in even pitched battles they struggle to survive.
Now, sure.
And we know the Eldar and the Koruks (pre-Orkz) both fought the same enemy in the War in Heaven - and Eldar came out of that conflict with undisputed dominance.
And Orkz were an even bigger threat before the Great Crusade.
And we know the Eldar Empire wasn't threatened by Orkz.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:31:31
Considering the Maiden and Exodite Worlds are part of the Empire since they are colonies, thus the Empire spanned the galaxy much like the British Empire spanned the entire world despite the fact the heart of the Empire, the British Isle, is only a small part of it.
Insectum7 wrote: The idea of Eldar fighting Orks as a challenge is like the US military being "challenged" by a herd of cattle.
The orks are 'the' dominant species in the galaxy. Look at the eldar now, even in equally pitched battles they struggle to survive.
We're not talking about present 40k, we're talking about the height of the Eldar Empire when they were canonically unchallenged. Sure, there were Orks back then, they just posed zero threat to the dominance of Eldar, in the way that cattle pose zero threat to the dominance of humanity.
The fall ending dominance/begetting the campaign: Canon.
The fall ending the Empire that had been failing for a very long time: Canon
Great crusade kicking off due to the emperor seeing this coming: Canon
The Fall happening because the Eldar were unchallenged: Canon.
The fall happening because the eldar were unchallenged: Conjecture due to having little to no information on the era.
Eldar being present in the Sol system: Canon.
Eldar being present in the Sol system: Conjecture there is a webway gate there, we do not know if the eldar used it or even knew of it at the time, its a good guess that they did, but its a guess none the less.
Eldar being exposed to Mankind: Canon.
Eldar being exposed to mankind: Canon from ONE source, which as someone said earlier apparently is not good enough, I disagree of course.
If DAoT Mankind were to challenge the Eldar, they were not unchallenged.
Canon, DAOT were unchallenged, Canon, Eldar were unchallenged , Conjecture: you seem to believe that means eldar were not challenged by DAOT when you have just as much evidence that DAOT humans were not challenged by Eldar. Conjecture: they did not challenge each other through choice, either through an alliance as stated by the eldar OR through mutually assured destruction, you leave me alone, I leave you alone, we dont challenge each other.
"The entire region where the Crone Worlds were located was overtaken by the growth of the Eye of Terror
If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world.
, and the Eldar empire's homeworlds were consumed by Chaos and turned into nightmarish realities that now lie fully within the bounds of the Immaterium."
The Sol system is the IoM's Homeworlds - but certainly isn't the entirety of the Empire.
Plus the exodite worlds are at the fringe of the eye of terror.
Lots of Exodite worlds in lots of places.
""Those who saw the foulness that corrupted their people for what it was became known as exodites, and they departed to found colony worlds on the fringes of the Aeldari empire." - Codex craftworlds p7
This is suggestive, but not conclusive.
There's no reason to assume the Eldar Empire must have been a sphere in realspace - in fact, there's no reason to discount it being noncontigious at all. So one "fringe" could be a stone's throw from the original homeworlds, while the Empire could (in theory) stretch halfway across the galaxy.
After all, if you're saying the Exodites were always right on the fringe of the Empire, then the Empire must have stretched to just short of *every* Exodite world - and those are scattered across the galaxy.
Now, I think it's reasonable that the Eldar empire core worlds / habitated worlds was rather small relative to the size of their domain - quite possibly mostly within the Eye of Terror itself - the fluff isn't 100% clear on that.
Further, the Eldar Empire only habitating a core set of worlds doesn't mean they lacked dominion on a larger area. Alexander could have travelled to Russia, sure. But the Denarian League had a hegemony well beyond Athens itself. And the British Empire had direct dominion on places across the globe while being an island.
"If they weren't in the Eye of Terror, they wouldn't be in the Warp, and thus wouldn't be Crone Worlds. Any Eldar worlds outside the Eye of Terror (or other rift) isn't a Crone world."
what are you talking about, I stated that all crone worlds are in the eye of terror.
It is conclusive its in the lore, deny it all you want unless you provide a conflicting source you are just deny for the sake of being right.
The eldar were in a sphere of REAL space.
No the exodites LEFT the empire.
No the British empire had troops all over its empire. The Eldar could have had dominion over the whole galaxy but they DIDN'T.
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The fall did NOT happen because the Eldar were unchallenged before the fall they were busy fighting orks from their Empire etc.
Source? How does one become decadent due to lack of challenge, without being unchallenged?
Slanesh wasn't born out of desperation; he/she was born out of a hunger for challenge. It's Slanesh, not Khorne.
The fall was due to them having no purpose at all, not because they were unchallenged. They didn't even work they had all their needs taken care of that is why they became decadent. That is the lore, you made the claim that is because they were unchallenged so you have to provide the evidence, which you can't because its not true. .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 14:37:30
