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 Argive wrote:
has there ever been a solid explanation for the 2nd and 11th primarch?

Nope. A scattering of hints and suggestions in the HH novels (some of which were later revealed to be in-universe rumours by characters). We know very little about them for fact. Magnus and Lorgar referred to them as the "purged and forgotten". Maybe they were just being lyrical or maybe one was literally purged and one was forgotten.

Some have speculated that one of the lost Legions was purged by Leman Russ and the Space Wolves in their role as the Emperor's Executioners (a role they were to adopt again on Propsero). However it may be that this reputation relates to Russ's attempt to reel Angron in during the "Night of the Wolf".

One of the few facts is that the 2nd Primarch is remembered as being dour and humourless. He must have been pretty poor company to be remembered thus when you consider others like Lion El Johnson and Perturabo were around.

One of the best hints we have is the 2nd Legion took part in the Rangdan Xenocides. Very little is know about this conflict that happened relatively early on in the Great Crusade. You can find a summary here. https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Rangdan_Xenocides. This copy of Regimental standard confirms that both the 2nd and 11th Legions took part in the Xenocides. https://regimental-standard.com/2018/03/28/field-dressing-a-lasgun-wound/. It could be that one or even both Legions (and their Primarchs) were destroyed during the Campaign as the fluff states that whole Legions were wiped out.

Nothing has ever been confirmed about the 2nd and 11th Legions (even their names). But the 2 most heavily implied causes of their destruction and the Rangdan and the Space Wolves.

Until GW chooses to tease us with more hints.

Someone has mentioned the 'good' Fulgrim clone as a possibility. I certainly think he could be; if the Necrons decide to let him go. It could make for all sorts of interesting writing, given 'bad' Fulgrim put Guilliman in a coma.

Originally the missing 2nd, 11th and 19th Chapters* were there so you could make up your own forces for Space Marine (the sample Space Marine force used in the Army List rules in WD 126 and subsequently in a battle report in WD 136 were for a Chapter called the Valedictors, and the Crimson Fists are mentioned in the description of a scenario in the Space Marine rules; you could consider those as two of the unnamed ones, I suppose ). Personally, I like that idea, even if the fanbase is too hidebound to countenance the idea nowadays.

*"legions" was originally a term for the traitor forces, and the idea that the large Heresy-era organisations used that term only came along later. Also, the Raven Guard didn't exist until 2nd edition

I see thanks for dropping some knowledge. I like the mythos behind those two and half hope the canon never covers it because its cool to wonder and largerly what attracted me to the setting.

On the other hand I'd personally dig an appearance of an unknown primarch. Perhaps perhaps leading a bunch of human and xenos auxilia to a brighter tomorrow not giving a toss about chaos or ecclarcy and all about logic.. and maybe the greater good or something Call meh crazeeey.

The only way I could see the resurrection of Sanguinius not being a complete farce invalidating his sacrifice is if his Legion in turn sacrifices themselves to bring him back - ie in the prophesied second Battle of Terra the Blood Angels die en masse to such a degree that it provides enough psychic energy to bring Sanguinius back from the grave and maybe mantle Dante's body. But there'd have to be a real sense of loss involved for the BA to justify completely invalidating their entire journey as a legion.

R0bcrt wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Lorgar to loyalist, and Khan or russ to chaos, yeah, sounds like a good trade off.

I'm personally a fan of the cloned Fulgrim coming back as a loyalist, as you'd get a cool redemption arc and some interesting interactions with the Imperium and himself. Imagine the conflict of coming to terms with his previous self that went evil, and then trying to convince Guiliman and the Imperium his intentions are pure. If written well I would love to see this as it's an organic way to add a previously evil primarch to the loyalist side while still having the evil Fulgrim. I think that potential arc would be amazing but that's just me.
.

Eh. I'd not call that organic (or particularly interesting, to be honest). It would need to spend a lot of time establishing the how/where/whys of a clone and why Imperial forces wouldn't just blow him the feth up on general principles. Narratively, speaking that isn't a hill he could climb, this is a completely intolerant society that spent 10,000 years demonizing the original: no one would have any reason to give him a chance, let alone troops. Except maybe the person who remembers that face slitting his throat.

The other problem is Fulgrim doesn't have anything to atone for, and a clone even less. Fulgrim didn't do a thing, beyond pick up a sword and get possessed while completely and utterly ignorant of chaos. All his 'misdeeds' come from a daemon wearing his skin like a suit.
And an 'uncorrupted' clone would pretty much have to come from samples prior to that happening.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The only way I could see the resurrection of Sanguinius not being a complete farce invalidating his sacrifice is if his Legion in turn sacrifices themselves to bring him back - ie in the prophesied second Battle of Terra the Blood Angels die en masse to such a degree that it provides enough psychic energy to bring Sanguinius back from the grave and maybe mantle Dante's body. But there'd have to be a real sense of loss involved for the BA to justify completely invalidating their entire journey as a legion.

Also, they seriously just wrecked the BA 'legion' in Devastation of Baal. Doing it again would be redundant. (Seriously, the numbers are 300 survivors for the BA, 8 chapters completely wiped, 6 more 'unrecoverable,' and the rest with serious casualties- none above half strength and multiple at 'one or two companies, total'). A 'mass sacrifice' just wouldn't work at this point, because there just aren't enough left. The text goes on to make it clear that the replacements are and will be Primaris going forward, and they have no sign of the BA flaws- no thirst, no curse, nothing. They actually ask some of the incoming primaris about it and get responses that work out to 'baffled' and 'no idea what you're talking about.'

And Gabriel Seth makes the point (and Mephiston later reiterates it) that there are so few of them left and so many Primaris replacements that it does indeed invalidate their entire journey as a legion.

Voss wrote:

R0bcrt wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Lorgar to loyalist, and Khan or russ to chaos, yeah, sounds like a good trade off.

I'm personally a fan of the cloned Fulgrim coming back as a loyalist, as you'd get a cool redemption arc and some interesting interactions with the Imperium and himself. Imagine the conflict of coming to terms with his previous self that went evil, and then trying to convince Guiliman and the Imperium his intentions are pure. If written well I would love to see this as it's an organic way to add a previously evil primarch to the loyalist side while still having the evil Fulgrim. I think that potential arc would be amazing but that's just me.
.

Eh. I'd not call that organic (or particularly interesting, to be honest). It would need to spend a lot of time establishing the how/where/whys of a clone and why Imperial forces wouldn't just blow him the feth up on general principles. Narratively, speaking that isn't a hill he could climb, this is a completely intolerant society that spent 10,000 years demonizing the original: no one would have any reason to give him a chance, let alone troops. Except maybe the person who remembers that face slitting his throat.

The other problem is Fulgrim doesn't have anything to atone for, and a clone even less. Fulgrim didn't do a thing, beyond pick up a sword and get possessed while completely and utterly ignorant of chaos. All his 'misdeeds' come from a daemon wearing his skin like a suit.
And an 'uncorrupted' clone would pretty much have to come from samples prior to that happening.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The only way I could see the resurrection of Sanguinius not being a complete farce invalidating his sacrifice is if his Legion in turn sacrifices themselves to bring him back - ie in the prophesied second Battle of Terra the Blood Angels die en masse to such a degree that it provides enough psychic energy to bring Sanguinius back from the grave and maybe mantle Dante's body. But there'd have to be a real sense of loss involved for the BA to justify completely invalidating their entire journey as a legion.

Also, they seriously just wrecked the BA 'legion' in Devastation of Baal. Doing it again would be redundant. (Seriously, the numbers are 300 survivors for the BA, 8 chapters completely wiped, 6 more 'unrecoverable,' and the rest with serious casualties- none above half strength and multiple at 'one or two companies, total'). A 'mass sacrifice' just wouldn't work at this point, because there just aren't enough left. The text goes on to make it clear that the replacements are and will be Primaris going forward, and they have no sign of the BA flaws- no thirst, no curse, nothing. They actually ask some of the incoming primaris about it and get responses that work out to 'baffled' and 'no idea what you're talking about.'

And Gabriel Seth makes the point (and Mephiston later reiterates it) that there are so few of them left and so many Primaris replacements that it does indeed invalidate their entire journey as a legion.

Except we know they still suffer from the Red Thirst per codex, which seems more like a gaffe of the author's part.

I cant wait for Fulgrim and Guilliman to meet up.

This is bound to happen, especially if and when we get a Daemon Fulgrim model.

Primarchs I would like to see, Lion, Kahn, and Russ. Lion and Russ would shake up the storyline somehow (for better or worse) and Kahn is just my favorite Loyal Primarch.

What are the chances a couple Primarchs switch sides?

Early on in 8th edition, there was a rumor one loyalist primarch would go chaos, and one chaos primarch would switch back to Team Imperium. What are the chances either of these things happen?

Nil. Neither the Imperium nor the Chaos Gods would allow this. At best you'd have Cawl recreating the original Primarchs so Eventually Traitoris 30K legions can be fielded in 40K as well, plus the schism tension with Guilliman.

You don't really need a balance of Primarchs on either side. The Daemon Primarchs, while mighty, have bound themselves to Chaos and have that a distinct weakness as well as strength. See Angron being banished on Armageddon.

To write a book? No. To sell models in a game and make sure everyone isn't putitng the same 50 models on the table? Yeah, you do.

The only way I could see the resurrection of Sanguinius not being a complete farce invalidating his sacrifice is if his Legion in turn sacrifices themselves to bring him back - ie in the prophesied second Battle of Terra the Blood Angels die en masse to such a degree that it provides enough psychic energy to bring Sanguinius back from the grave and maybe mantle Dante's body. But there'd have to be a real sense of loss involved for the BA to justify completely invalidating their entire journey as a legion.

Have you heard the rumor they're going to be pushing out the 1.0 Space Marines in favor of Primaris? And Blood Angels already have a named Primaris special character? How could I write the fluff about a bunch of Blood Angel Marines who have the Red Thirst, and Black Rage (over the psychic stain of the death of their primarch) all creating enough psychic energy to pull their Primarch's soul back from the warp for some sort of clone/rebirth scenario that further emphasizes the shift to Primaris Marines who are supposedly less susceptible to the Red Thirst and Black Rage? And how could I use this to open up the Primaris to the Black Rage given how popular the Death Company is with BA players. All the 1.0 chapter's marines die off in a sacrifice which brings back Sanguinius, and enrages the Primaris who were rendered somehow impotent in the moment?

Eh. I'd not call that organic (or particularly interesting, to be honest). It would need to spend a lot of time establishing the how/where/whys of a clone and why Imperial forces wouldn't just blow him the feth up on general principles. Narratively, speaking that isn't a hill he could climb, this is a completely intolerant society that spent 10,000 years demonizing the original: no one would have any reason to give him a chance, let alone troops. Except maybe the person who remembers that face slitting his throat.

The other problem is Fulgrim doesn't have anything to atone for, and a clone even less. Fulgrim didn't do a thing, beyond pick up a sword and get possessed while completely and utterly ignorant of chaos. All his 'misdeeds' come from a daemon wearing his skin like a suit.
And an 'uncorrupted' clone would pretty much have to come from samples prior to that happening.

So, this intolerant society doesn't think Fulgrum should atone for picking up a sword and being possessed by Chaos? Or continuing down the Chaotic path after he un-possessed himself? As for how to clone him from pre-possesed DNA, Haven't they hinted enough at Cawl trying to recreate Loyal Primaris versions of the Traitor Legions, and beyond that the Traitor Primarchs themselves? I'm pretty sure this was just a fluffy olive branch to people who want to play a pre-heresy Traitoris legion as some sort of loyalist splinter that wasn't at Istvaan or some such as another excuse to paint pre-heresy space marine panoply on their models with yet another unique visual for game health, plus the soap operatic nature of the fluff.

I cant wait for Fulgrim and Guilliman to meet up.

This is bound to happen, especially if and when we get a Daemon Fulgrim model.

Primarchs I would like to see, Lion, Kahn, and Russ. Lion and Russ would shake up the storyline somehow (for better or worse) and Kahn is just my favorite Loyal Primarch.

Lion and Russ should definitely be the next two loyalist, and they should show up together - at the same time not necessarily in the same place. There's too much story/history between the two - potentially the best sibling rivalry amongst the 20 without going Civil War Brother Against Brother homicidal - that it can't be passed up Plus, business wise that gives two more codex armies their Demon Monster equivalent face of the francise. I've mentioned it before, and will reiterate, the idea of Primarch A returning to the other's chapter and having to both re-enact the original meeting - plus that chapter having to escort that primarch back to his legion/chapter would be a great story that could culminate (for part 1 with Part 2 being more about Primarch B) in the Call-In-The-Calvalry trope return of said Primarch B. This opens up another chance to re-enact the fight, plus some rivalry over Primarch A using Primarch B's sons "incorrectly" - making the wrong tactical/strategic choices while leading the other guy's marines. So many ways to both comedic relief that rivalry and increase the heat to make it simmer and boil for tension.

It might be a little too cute, but I could see both Primarchs returning to the other's legion/chapter and both trying to get to the other while leading their brother's chapter being a pretty good read as well. It'd be a decent chance to flesh out more of the similarities, differences, and brotherhood they'd have. Imagine Russ having to expose himself in a feral charge to save some intractable Dark Angels stubbornly refusing to fall back when he thinks they should have. Lion having to leap into a charge after the Wolves he expected to stand and shoot at the enemy take off for close combat. Imagine Azrael, Belial, and Sammael, or Grimnar, Blackmane, and Bjorn (who would/should absolutely be the Wolf chosen to duel with Lion for the tradition- especially as they'd wake him to verify that the Lion really is the Lion) have to balance deference to a Primarch with their personal experience with their own chapter's strengths, weaknesses, and habits.

As for how the Lion gets out of the Rock and to the Wolves - that sounds like a job for Cypher and the Fallen- who gets entirely too much attention inside DA fluff, but not nearly enough outside it. He and the Fallen need to show up in more fluff outside of Dark Angel specific stories so more folks are exposed to the Fallen and will want to include them in their non-Imperium Armies. The Fallen Soup should be a thing.

My understanding was that Russ and el'Jonson had patched up their grievance after their well-publicised duel.

Mind you, I wonder if Ragnar Blackmane caught a glimpse of something Azrael wishes he hadn't while on the Rock?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
My understanding was that Russ and el'Jonson had patched up their grievance after their well-publicised duel.

even if they have I've found posters here tend to ignore character development and patching up of feuds in the HH in favor of a memy view that if a primarch returned they'd immediatly reply a greatest hits version of their Heresy era arguments. Another good example (likewise involving the Lion) was the Lion and Gulliman. They've resolved their heresy era differances it would seem but try telling most of the posters here that

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
My understanding was that Russ and el'Jonson had patched up their grievance after their well-publicised duel.

Mind you, I wonder if Ragnar Blackmane caught a glimpse of something Azrael wishes he hadn't while on the Rock?

The Feud, absolutely over. But they still have a tradition of re-enacting it every time the two chapters meet. Or at least they did - if it hasn't been retconned. Supposedly there's usually an honor duel when the two chapters meet where the two chosen champions have a fist fight.

Yes, but I'd expect that to get knocked on the head if the actual Primarchs turn up again. Likewise, I don't see either of them having any problems working with Guilliman. Russ didn't throw a strop over the publication of Guilliman's Codex, after all; he just ignored it, and Guilliman turned a blind eye.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Yes, but I'd expect that to get knocked on the head if the actual Primarchs turn up again. Likewise, I don't see either of them having any problems working with Guilliman. Russ didn't throw a strop over the publication of Guilliman's Codex, after all; he just ignored it, and Guilliman turned a blind eye.

Traditions and sibling rivalries rarely just go away. Its been a while since I went that far back in the fluff, but I THINK the duels were fought even when the Primarchs were still around and they would watch as spectators. Having just the Lion show up on Fenris would mean he was the only Dark Angel available to choose as the Champion, and having him punch some poor Company Champion seems a bit unfair so why not Bjorn. Plus, like I said, I think they'd wake him up to see if he can verify it is indeed Lion anyway. Bjorn may be the only one left who's even seen him in person, plus be able to ask questions only the Lion could answer. Plus think of all the Westerns you've seen where the Gunslinger hero becomes the target of every body trying to make a name for themselves. Now imagine the gunslinger is a Primarch. You think there wouldn't be a line of Wolves hoping to get one good shot in on the Lion before he whomps them?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Yes, but I'd expect that to get knocked on the head if the actual Primarchs turn up again. Likewise, I don't see either of them having any problems working with Guilliman. Russ didn't throw a strop over the publication of Guilliman's Codex, after all; he just ignored it, and Guilliman turned a blind eye.

the tradtion was in place as early as the Heresy. I seem to recall one of the novels about Imperium secundus (I want to say unrememebred empire) had a space space who was on ultramar marching up to the dark angel delegation as it landed and insisting on the honor duel. I rememebr it as Lionel Johnson stepped out of a stormbird and was like "..... well if you're sure"

Lion wakes up, ends up crossing paths with some wolves for whatever reason.

Traditional duel ensures. Bjorn being most senior wolf engages in a friendly grapple with Johnson. Whether due to ageing technology or ailing mind, an unfortunate incident occurs, tragically initiating the power field of Bjorn's fell claw, accidently eviserating the poor lion. The mortal injury results in Lion being put back to sleep for eternity in a sarcophagi life support, giving the Dark Angels the first loyalis* Primarch Dreadnought commander!

*we all know Ferrus's detached head is wired into an unnamed unmarked crazed helbrute somewhere, and nobody remembers or cares.

With regards to the Fulgrim clone, it all depends on how the fluff is written. If done well, it could be pulled off. He's currently held by Trazyn, who's already demonstrated himself willing to raid his collection to help stave off Abbadon. If other Primarchs begin leaving the eye and look to be pushing the Imperium to the brink of destruction, he could very well consider it worthwhile to 'even out the numbers', as it were.

The trick would be in re-integrating him into the Imperium. You couldn't just have him running as per normal, the Inquisition and Custodes would have a fit. No, he'd have to take a new name. Given that none bar Guilliman and his Mechanicus pal would actually recognise him, they'd have to be on it. But otherwise, you could probably conceal him from the rest of the Imperium as 'Fulgrim'; by deploying him to the battlefield under a pseudonym in a very opaque helmet.

How to get Guilliman to accept him? That would be the crucial part. If written badly, it would ruin the whole thing. If delicately and carefully handled, you could get some wonderful dialogue out of it. Not to mention Guilliman's angst at the only brother he has returned to him being the one who slit his throat (albeit in a different form).

 Ketara wrote:
With regards to the Fulgrim clone, it all depends on how the fluff is written. If done well, it could be pulled off. He's currently held by Trazyn, who's already demonstrated himself willing to raid his collection to help stave off Abbadon. If other Primarchs begin leaving the eye and look to be pushing the Imperium to the brink of destruction, he could very well consider it worthwhile to 'even out the numbers', as it were.

The trick would be in re-integrating him into the Imperium. You couldn't just have him running as per normal, the Inquisition and Custodes would have a fit. No, he'd have to take a new name. Given that none bar Guilliman and his Mechanicus pal would actually recognise him, they'd have to be on it. But otherwise, you could probably conceal him from the rest of the Imperium as 'Fulgrim'; by deploying him to the battlefield under a pseudonym in a very opaque helmet.

How to get Guilliman to accept him? That would be the crucial part. If written badly, it would ruin the whole thing. If delicately and carefully handled, you could get some wonderful dialogue out of it. Not to mention Guilliman's angst at the only brother he has returned to him being the one who slit his throat (albeit in a different form).

keep in mind the evidance right now suggests Gulliman belvies there is something fundamentally wrong with the traitors primarchs and their children, hence why he forebade the use of their geneseed for ultima founding chapters. now sneaking in some emperor's children chapters and screaming "NOOOPE THEY'RE IMPERIAL FISTS SUCESSORS" is one thing, but Gulliman would likely not trust a clone of a traitor primarch. and TBH I don't blame him. once bitten twice shy

Aye, it would have to be very carefully handled. No hugging it out.

Would give some wonderful opportunity for 'Loyal' vs 'Chaos' Primarch scenarios different to the normal Heresy lineup though; especially if we got to see Corax falling to Chaos.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
My understanding was that Russ and el'Jonson had patched up their grievance after their well-publicised duel.

Yes, that is true. But given that the Fall of Caliban happened very shortly after the Siege of Terra, word had probably not gotten around very much and the Marines from both sides carried on the grudge, even if their Primarchs had settled their differences.

 Karhedron wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
My understanding was that Russ and el'Jonson had patched up their grievance after their well-publicised duel.

Yes, that is true. But given that the Fall of Caliban happened very shortly after the Siege of Terra, word had probably not gotten around very much and the Marines from both sides carried on the grudge, even if their Primarchs had settled their differences.

even if not ti'd not be the first time subordinates have carried a grudge even when the primary people had buried it.