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I'd say these should just be a different type of psychic power but should be included to some measure.

They wouldn't work the same as in AOS (I know, i'm slightly altering the whole concept here) but would be a psychic power that would 'remain in play' and could be curses or buffs that whilst in use, the psyker would either have some penalties (such as can't do anything but move or can only move D6 and cannot attack or gets some negative hit penalties).

Then there would be some effect of each turn the unit suffers a perils in the warp attack on a 1, turn 2 is a 1 or 2 and so on.

They'd have to be worth having a psyker out of the fray though such as re-rolling saves, reducing movement to 1, mortal wound dealing vortexs or golems, maybe something even extreme like a 'shut down shooting within a certain range' - that would provide a nice synergy between psychic and combat focused armies. Some cool stuff like that.

As for armies without the psychic powers, maybe they could replace them with some form of technological based thing - Necron tech, tyranid advance bio diversity?

GW has already done that for factions like Khorne who have no wizards. It's likely they will do it again for the Overlords who also don't have any mages.

So yep the concept of an Endless Spell can easily cross over into factions that don't have mages to use them, they just get called prayers or such.

W40K is not about magic, it's about guns (BIG ONES).

 Irbis wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
Explain to me how Slaughterpriests and Aether-Navigators are NOT wizard equivalents. They both can unbind spells and dispel spells, and can produce effects a lot like spells.

They're wizard substitutes.

By that standard, necron 5th edition crypteks and their unstable relics utilizing similar mechanic to psykers are psykers too. Not only this dispels your original argument, calling necrons psykers is just silly, as much as calling Khornate characters wizards.

As for Slaughterpriests they can attempt to unbind one spell as if they were a wizard. Not only this says right there they are not wizards (if their inability to cast anything wasn't a hint already), you're pretty much saying Ultramarine captain with sanctic halo is a psyker too because he can attempt to deny a power as if he was one, eh?

We're not talking about 5th edition 40k. Don't move the goalposts or employ straw man arguments.

I never said Slaughterpriests were wizards. They don't have the 'wizard' keyword. But they function on the tabletop in a manner similar to wizards. They can unbind and dispel, meaning they can deal with Endless Spells. GW has given every army in AoS the ability to deal with spellcasting, even if they can't cast endless spells. GW has NOT done the same thing in 40k.

Endless Spells are built on the assumption that either side will have an opportunity to A.) Unbind them before they happen B.) Dispel them in their own turn C.) Take control of Predatory Endless Spells if the turn sequence is in their favor. Armies without wizards can't do A, B, or C. Armies with wizard equivalents can still do A and B, which is why all armies get them.

 oni wrote:
W40K is not about magic, it's about guns (BIG ONES).

with space magic!

case in point Orks, Chaos, etc....

Ok but can we change the title of the thread to: "Should templates/models be introduced to psychic phase in 40k"

Because that's really what that is. Those endless spell thingies are fancy templates for all intents and purposes. Do they have stat lines like models?

Karol wrote:
There is a difference between geting a new product or a fixed product, and high chance that GW does something stupid and take again two or three best GK things and make people pay more money to use something they used before. Worse they could say they are giving GK new stuff, because of new models.

If this were to happen - and based on what we've seen in the Age of Silliness Endless Spell releases so far - they wouldn't be removing powers that are already in the Codex to turn them into Endless Powers.

If anything, they might serve as an opportunity to reintroduce some older psychic powers from previous editions - or, at least, as a way to reuse the names.

I'd rather they not happen, though - let's keep more AoS influences out of 40k, please.

 Argive wrote:
Ok but can we change the title of the thread to: "Should templates/models be introduced to psychic phase in 40k"

Because that's really what that is. Those endless spell thingies are fancy templates for all intents and purposes. Do they have stat lines like models?

They have warscrolls (same thing as datasheets) with rules but they do not have stats. They can not directly attack or be attacked by another model, only produce an effect or be dispelled.

 John Prins wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
Explain to me how Slaughterpriests and Aether-Navigators are NOT wizard equivalents. They both can unbind spells and dispel spells, and can produce effects a lot like spells.

They're wizard substitutes.

By that standard, necron 5th edition crypteks and their unstable relics utilizing similar mechanic to psykers are psykers too. Not only this dispels your original argument, calling necrons psykers is just silly, as much as calling Khornate characters wizards.

As for Slaughterpriests they can attempt to unbind one spell as if they were a wizard. Not only this says right there they are not wizards (if their inability to cast anything wasn't a hint already), you're pretty much saying Ultramarine captain with sanctic halo is a psyker too because he can attempt to deny a power as if he was one, eh?

We're not talking about 5th edition 40k. Don't move the goalposts or employ straw man arguments.

I never said Slaughterpriests were wizards. They don't have the 'wizard' keyword. But they function on the tabletop in a manner similar to wizards. They can unbind and dispel, meaning they can deal with Endless Spells. GW has given every army in AoS the ability to deal with spellcasting, even if they can't cast endless spells. GW has NOT done the same thing in 40k.

Endless Spells are built on the assumption that either side will have an opportunity to A.) Unbind them before they happen B.) Dispel them in their own turn C.) Take control of Predatory Endless Spells if the turn sequence is in their favor. Armies without wizards can't do A, B, or C. Armies with wizard equivalents can still do A and B, which is why all armies get them.

And this can't be done in 40k...how? As it is only tau is totally out currently with rest having some options at least. Not too hard for GW to insert unit with technological widget X that can be used to dispel them.

I think the problem is that you compared them to just psychic powers so people automatically went to "well not everyone has psykers".

40k has TECHNOLOGY. Why can't T'au have like a big plasma wall they can throw down or Necrons have a big blob of nanoscarabs that floats around eating stuff.

Like if GW throw out a model that represents a tyranid viral cloud next codex or something people wouldn't think twice about how appropriate it is, but if you suggest it and call it an "Endless spell like in AoS" suddenly it's the worst thing.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think the problem is that you compared them to just psychic powers so people automatically went to "well not everyone has psykers".

40k has TECHNOLOGY. Why can't T'au have like a big plasma wall they can throw down or Necrons have a big blob of nanoscarabs that floats around eating stuff.

Like if GW throw out a model that represents a tyranid viral cloud next codex or something people wouldn't think twice about how appropriate it is, but if you suggest it and call it an "Endless spell like in AoS" suddenly it's the worst thing.

This.

People always assume the fluff-justification must be an equivalent to AoS (e.g. Spells = Psychic Powers).


It's just a way to use different miniatures with some of (more or less persistent) in-game effect.


If they sell for AoS, GW will make them for 40K. Whatever fluff (psychic, technology, warp, whatever) the poor lore-writers have to come up with to go along with the new miniature line is pretty much irrelevant.

Please god no. I do not need more fething models for damn abilities, nor do I want to spend money on spells instead of a new squad of dudes. They're absolutely going to do it for 9th (which drops next year btw), they'd be stupid not to, but it doesn't have to mean I like it.

 p5freak wrote:
Wow, endless smites from tsons, d3 MW on a 5. YAY !

BIG NONO. The psychic powers right now arent balanced. Tsons can just smite tau and necrons from the table. GW is incapable of balancing. This wont change in the future.

This is the first ive heard of 1ksons being "OP". Mostly you hear how its good to only take a command detachment because the rest of the army is "meh" at best. What tournaments are people placing top 5 consistently with 1ksons?

Table wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Wow, endless smites from tsons, d3 MW on a 5. YAY !

BIG NONO. The psychic powers right now arent balanced. Tsons can just smite tau and necrons from the table. GW is incapable of balancing. This wont change in the future.

This is the first ive heard of 1ksons being "OP". Mostly you hear how its good to only take a command detachment because the rest of the army is "meh" at best. What tournaments are people placing top 5 consistently with 1ksons?

Alamo GT just last weekend. Dallas GT just 3 weeks ago. Barnyard Brawl where pure TS was 2 out of the top 3. Etc..


Thousand Sons (pure, not a nurgle daemon in sight) had more big-tournament wins in the last 2 months than, for example, all Eldar factions solo or combined taken together. Or more than Orks. More than GSC. Etc..

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
They're absolutely going to do it for 9th (which drops next year btw)

And you know this how?

I think it totally depends on how it would be implemented and "balanced".
Looking at AoS and how GW does things in general, the answer would be no.

I do agree the psychic phase could be used more as a "special" phase where faction specific fancy abilities could be used both psychic or tech.
I could see removing the phase completely and they become just another command point item to be used in movement/shooting/assault.

Funny how it was mentioned "paying for bullets" when many abilities like "Flak" shooting is precisely paying for the "bullets", why should powers be any different?

tneva82 wrote:
And this can't be done in 40k...how? As it is only tau is totally out currently with rest having some options at least. Not too hard for GW to insert unit with technological widget X that can be used to dispel them.

It could be done, in 40k, but would require changing a lot of armies. Even the armies with minimal anti-psyker options would have to be improved. AoS is very heavily designed to give armies multiple, accessible anti-magic options - even armies with lots of wizards often have units that can unbind/dispel but not cast spells.

40k, OTOH, is much less psyker focused. Armies without psyker support aren't uncommon, even if they could have brought psykers. Introducing Endless Spells would basically make psykers mandatory, much like wizards/unbinders are pretty mandatory in AoS.

Sim-Life wrote:I think the problem is that you compared them to just psychic powers so people automatically went to "well not everyone has psykers".

40k has TECHNOLOGY. Why can't T'au have like a big plasma wall they can throw down or Necrons have a big blob of nanoscarabs that floats around eating stuff.

Like if GW throw out a model that represents a tyranid viral cloud next codex or something people wouldn't think twice about how appropriate it is, but if you suggest it and call it an "Endless spell like in AoS" suddenly it's the worst thing.

When someone suggests adding Endless Spells to 40k, then we have to consider the mechanics of Endless Spells, especially predatory ones, and how that would interact with current armies as they stand.

If you want 'Special Effects Miniatures' that can't be stopped by 'Deny the Witch', controlled by the opposing player in their turn, or be dispelled, then it's not even close to what an AoS Endless Spell is.

If you gave 'SFX Minis' to every army and they all operated under the same paradigm, divorced from the Psychic Phase, it would probably work out fine. Even if there were no counters, costed correctly it would be a more or less level playing field.

Endless Psyker Powers, OTOH, skew and advantage to armies with Psykers, and non-Psyker armies need to have counters built into them, because as it stands they don't have counters.

 KingGarland wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Ok but can we change the title of the thread to: "Should templates/models be introduced to psychic phase in 40k"

Because that's really what that is. Those endless spell thingies are fancy templates for all intents and purposes. Do they have stat lines like models?

They have warscrolls (same thing as datasheets) with rules but they do not have stats. They can not directly attack or be attacked by another model, only produce an effect or be dispelled.

Ok so basicaly, people are advocating for the re-introduction of templates. But really fancy templates. Because what is the difference in essence between a spell model or a template?
How many people will be modeling their own(I would) and how many will be doing thos for advantage? It's a whole can of worms I dont think needs to be opened.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think the problem is that you compared them to just psychic powers so people automatically went to "well not everyone has psykers".

40k has TECHNOLOGY. Why can't T'au have like a big plasma wall they can throw down or Necrons have a big blob of nanoscarabs that floats around eating stuff.

Like if GW throw out a model that represents a tyranid viral cloud next codex or something people wouldn't think twice about how appropriate it is, but if you suggest it and call it an "Endless spell like in AoS" suddenly it's the worst thing.

Unfortunately, GW won’t do this, even if it is pointed out to them, or you would have seen something along those lines with Empire cannon and the cloud dwarves. They’re too tied to the narrative aspect; they’ll just cock their heads and wonder why people don’t play with psychic armies that have these neat new “spells” they devised. Hell, they haven’t even figured out to allow units to mix and match melee and ranged options in the same squad (see Wraithguard for an example).

 Stormonu wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think the problem is that you compared them to just psychic powers so people automatically went to "well not everyone has psykers".

40k has TECHNOLOGY. Why can't T'au have like a big plasma wall they can throw down or Necrons have a big blob of nanoscarabs that floats around eating stuff.

Like if GW throw out a model that represents a tyranid viral cloud next codex or something people wouldn't think twice about how appropriate it is, but if you suggest it and call it an "Endless spell like in AoS" suddenly it's the worst thing.

Unfortunately, GW won’t do this, even if it is pointed out to them, or you would have seen something along those lines with Empire cannon and the cloud dwarves. They’re too tied to the narrative aspect; they’ll just cock their heads and wonder why people don’t play with psychic armies that have these neat new “spells” they devised. Hell, they haven’t even figured out to allow units to mix and match melee and ranged options in the same squad (see Wraithguard for an example).

Tyranid Warriors can mix and match close combat and ranged weapons, both on the models and in the units.

On the one hand I think the concept is really cool, on the other hand the point about GW and their narrative is totally correct. I'm already bored with Necrons being defenseless in the face of psykers and lacking specialist detachments, so to add another thing we don't get because "muh narrative" would just widen the gap further.

Khorne in AoS don’t do magic but still got persistent manifestations of stuff. Non-psychic races would just get other things - “Fifth Sphere Nanotechnology”, “C’Tan Manifestations” - plenty of ways to keep things so everyone has to buy in.

As someone who is just getting into AoS, seeing that choice of game design does give me some hope. I'd love the idea of Necron Endless Spells being C'Tan shards that are too weedy for a full datasheet, or a Blackstone Pylon you can port out of a Tesseract Labyrinth. My issue (that I share with Stormonu) is that 40K design seems unduly shackled to the lore when it comes to asymmetrical options.

Salt aside, the main issue is adding more inevitably (because it's GW) rickety rules to an already rickety ruleset.

I'd much rather GW make more terrain than endless spells for 40k. They fit the aesthetic better, they can be more accessible to everyone, and they're usable for things other the specific rules attached to them