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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 John Prins wrote:
Practical combat mecha need to be small enough to go where most cars could, because most of our infrastructure is built for cars. This puts the practical limit somewhere near 4 meters in height, to negotiate things like parking garages and factory loading docks.

At 10 meters, units will struggle to get effective cover from residential buildings, especially on the move. That really restricts your effective combat area for your mecha. You could probably get away with 5-6m mecha in those areas.


Basically correct. Heavy Gear / AT VOTOMS / Gasaraki / Brain Powerd got the size "correct", where they can make full use of buildings for cover, and operate nimbly in urban areas. I see "Gears" as 1-man MRAP-equivalents, where VOTOMS are more Armored HUMVEEs. 4-5m is about right.

10m is where things become fanciful.

Pacific Rim is a kaiju movie, so it's magical robots all the way.

   
Made in us
Gun Mage




Pacific Rim Jaegers ride the line on the real robots/super robots divide. Uprising tends to lean further into super robot territory though.

That being said, I’d agree that it’s most likely power armor, with a chance of mini-mecha (Heavy Gear/Gasakari) for infantry support.

Larger mecha would require a radical shift in a lot of factors to become practical in front line combat. I think you’d be more likely to see Bolos.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

Keep in mind that any show/setting that demonstrates mecha or robots consist of a superior technological level as of now. Mechs are limited by two main things, technology (software and hardware) and cost. While there is some technology that could mimic or make them possible, the cost of them is so outrageous that there would be no benefit while human life is cheaper.

In any of those fantasy/scifi settings also have an edge, meaning there was a technological advancement that is unparallel in current tech for example super powerful armor, extremely lightweight that for some reason isn't suitable for tanks but works better for mech armor or power source. Their world is also built around these mechs, that means city constructions designed for their transport and movement. The roads most likely created with a stronger substance than simple asphalt and concrete, transports designed for them. Currently, our infrastructure is designed around tanks so, in order to make larger things more viable, new cities need to be created or current cities designs have to be adapted.

That doesn't mean there aren't currently viable solutions to large mechs. Module construction, more mobile and versatile construction mechs can be more beneficial than having a crane, buildozer, etc now gives you an all in one unit. Its size, however, is still limited to the large construction vehicle sizes due to infrastructure. Since cost is the limiting factor, until material becomes cheaper, easier to produce that is stronger, vehicles and manpower are just cheaper. Mining situations, more useful in space, but still useful for mining operations. In these cases they would be smaller power armor suits designed for drilling, providing a double redundancy protection for a pilot (sealed environment suit + sealed cockpit).

Where we will and have seen robots in conjunction with humans is operations. Robots currently do operations/surgery both automatically and assisted remotely as they provide more stable hand and more precise even when a human operating. As communications technology and networks expand and grow, then further remote operations become better with no lag or delays. For example, 5G has the capabilities to allow someone to remote surgery across the world with no delay, lag, buffering, near instantaneous. Are we there yet? No, but it is a direction things are heading.

You will see drones, which they already are, becoming better remote units. We use them a lot for scouting and air operations as their cost is cheaper than losing human/aircraft. They can pack just as much firepower, but have to be fielded for specific operations where jets can serve as more general purpose. You'll start to see them become more effective in ground combat as they don't flinch, don't deviate, don't get tired.

In order for there to be a shift, there has to be a need, not simply because its cool. Now if suddenly very large aliens start to appear and we need to design larger machines of war to fight them, sure. However again technology and cost need to have changed by then. If we start doing asteroid mining, then we'll see a shift into power armor or remote construction vehicles. If we're exploring a new planet where wildlife is larger, then there would be a need for a larger machine but by then we would also design the city/base/outpost with the ability for those new mech/drone/robots. It isn't that robots can't be created or aren't cool but there just isn't a need for them to fit, given current technological level and costs.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

nobody wrote:
Pacific Rim Jaegers ride the line on the real robots/super robots divide. Uprising tends to lean further into super robot territory though.

That being said, I’d agree that it’s most likely power armor, with a chance of mini-mecha (Heavy Gear/Gasakari) for infantry support.

Larger mecha would require a radical shift in a lot of factors to become practical in front line combat. I think you’d be more likely to see Bolos.


Pacific Rim is 100% super robots. They're fighting Kaiju 1:1 without any realistic military tactics at all. Weapons magically transform out of nowhere. They speak mumbo-jumbo like Star Wars. It's no more "real" than "Midichlorians" and "the Force" are. And it's not even 1/10 as good as Evangelion was when it came out 20(?) years ago! If we're talking about post-Evangelion mecha, then the Gantz Hard Suit and Mecha are far more "real" than Pacific Rim. At least they're all mass-production (from Alien technology transfer).

Patlabor (8m tall) could on the line, if it weren't always played for laughs so often. At 10m (and larger!), they're moving out of the practical range for ground combat, and only really practical for space combat. Heck, Robotech (Macross) can be seen as more real robot than Pacific Rim, where the Veritech military robots are basically fancy aerospace fighters and support units.


   
Made in us
Gun Mage




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
nobody wrote:
Pacific Rim Jaegers ride the line on the real robots/super robots divide. Uprising tends to lean further into super robot territory though.

That being said, I’d agree that it’s most likely power armor, with a chance of mini-mecha (Heavy Gear/Gasakari) for infantry support.

Larger mecha would require a radical shift in a lot of factors to become practical in front line combat. I think you’d be more likely to see Bolos.


Pacific Rim is 100% super robots. They're fighting Kaiju 1:1 without any realistic military tactics at all. Weapons magically transform out of nowhere. They speak mumbo-jumbo like Star Wars. It's no more "real" than "Midichlorians" and "the Force" are. And it's not even 1/10 as good as Evangelion was when it came out 20(?) years ago! If we're talking about post-Evangelion mecha, then the Gantz Hard Suit and Mecha are far more "real" than Pacific Rim. At least they're all mass-production (from Alien technology transfer).

Patlabor (8m tall) could on the line, if it weren't always played for laughs so often. At 10m (and larger!), they're moving out of the practical range for ground combat, and only really practical for space combat. Heck, Robotech (Macross) can be seen as more real robot than Pacific Rim, where the Veritech military robots are basically fancy aerospace fighters and support units.



None of the Jaeger weapon systems appear out of nowhere, they’re hidden away logically within the mecha in question.

I’m using the tvtropes definitions for super robot vs real robot.

They are built by militaries, are only used against Kaiju and have not fully replaced other military units. There is thought and discussion given towards the logistics of using them in universe (hence why they were being decommissioned at the beginning of the film).

However, they also do have characteristics of super robots in the drift, unique designs, called attacks, etc.
   
Made in gb
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UK

Some of the bipedial Dinosaurs got pretty big - Does that mean that Bio-Mechs are possible?

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

nobody wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
nobody wrote:
Pacific Rim Jaegers ride the line on the real robots/super robots divide. Uprising tends to lean further into super robot territory though.

That being said, I’d agree that it’s most likely power armor, with a chance of mini-mecha (Heavy Gear/Gasakari) for infantry support.

Larger mecha would require a radical shift in a lot of factors to become practical in front line combat. I think you’d be more likely to see Bolos.


Pacific Rim is 100% super robots. They're fighting Kaiju 1:1 without any realistic military tactics at all. Weapons magically transform out of nowhere. They speak mumbo-jumbo like Star Wars. It's no more "real" than "Midichlorians" and "the Force" are. And it's not even 1/10 as good as Evangelion was when it came out 20(?) years ago! If we're talking about post-Evangelion mecha, then the Gantz Hard Suit and Mecha are far more "real" than Pacific Rim. At least they're all mass-production (from Alien technology transfer).

Patlabor (8m tall) could on the line, if it weren't always played for laughs so often. At 10m (and larger!), they're moving out of the practical range for ground combat, and only really practical for space combat. Heck, Robotech (Macross) can be seen as more real robot than Pacific Rim, where the Veritech military robots are basically fancy aerospace fighters and support units.


None of the Jaeger weapon systems appear out of nowhere, they’re hidden away logically within the mecha in question.

I’m using the tvtropes definitions for super robot vs real robot.

They are built by militaries, are only used against Kaiju and have not fully replaced other military units. There is thought and discussion given towards the logistics of using them in universe (hence why they were being decommissioned at the beginning of the film).

However, they also do have characteristics of super robots in the drift, unique designs, called attacks, etc.


Dude, it's OK like stuff that does a garbage job of dressing up obviously fake stuff, but don't pretend that it's "real".

I'm fully aware of tvtropes, and Pacific Rim is about as real robot as Gundam G. Except that Gundam G is more realistic. And no, tvtropes is not an authoriatative source. In the case of Pacific Rim, the "real" robot stuff is entirely backstory handwavium like "midicholorians" - what you see is Super Robot battles through and through. And the notion that it requires the MIC to make one? A kid made one in a junkyard. It's 99% Super Robot, 1% Real Robot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/30 22:15:16


   
Made in au
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





I'm actually curious why tanks keep being made as a comparison when both helicopters and jet planes seem to be the direction modern military seems to be going. I've heard of one or two new tanks since world war 2 but several new models of jet and other combat air craft that seem to have the capability to take out both hard and soft targets from obscene ranges.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

I suspect tanks are the reference point because robots tend to be on the ground, rather than flying in the sky.

   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

cody.d. wrote:
I'm actually curious why tanks keep being made as a comparison when both helicopters and jet planes seem to be the direction modern military seems to be going. I've heard of one or two new tanks since world war 2 but several new models of jet and other combat air craft that seem to have the capability to take out both hard and soft targets from obscene ranges.


Aircraft are critically lacking in something important called 'dwell time.' Aircraft are well suited to when you have some capability to identify and highlight targets, but they have no capability to stay in an area and occupy it. If all that modern combat required was seeing a target and then sending out a strike craft to blow it up, everything would've changed to drones long ago. And until it becomes cheap and easy to boost payloads into orbit, allowing you to put warships in space to enjoy the ultimate in dwell time on a targetand rain fire down on everything they see, ground units will always provide the best possible dwell time. Because most military objectives are not well handled by just having a drone swoop in and blow someone up, or having a helicopter strafe by.

Not to mention that various talking heads declare tanks 'dead' every ten years or so. Like a hundred years ago, when tanks were declared dead after WW1, because their ideal role was crossing trenches and be mobile bunkers for troops crossing no man's land. No trenches, no use for tanks. Or, shortly after WW2, when tank gun technology reached the point that tank armor was rendered useless - until new armor technology like composite materials once more countered the gun tech. And things have proceeded apace since then, with new offensive and defensive techs improving on and overcoming what came before. It might not seem like much is happening with tanks, because much like guns, they are a very mature technology that is very difficult to substantially improve upon at this point (look t the various proposals for superguns, battle rifles, and the like, and how eventually what wins out is 'reliable, effective, and not too expensive.').

And robots, even 'tiny' ones (and especially tiny ones, really, because those require not only all new, completely unheard of technology and materials, but they also need it miniaturized) would fail on all three counts.

Someone upthread mentioned Jules Verne and submarines (although they meant to say 'rockets). The mistake they made though was that rockets were plausible technology. Figure out how to get the fuel to ignite, strengthen the combustion chamber, control the air flow over the frame.The problem with practical robots is not just material technology, but solving limitations imposed by physics. Ground pressure has been brought up repeatedly. One of the advantages of tanked vehicles is that tracks spread the weight over a very wide area. And modern tanks can still have problems with the ground supporting their weight, especially bridges and such. It's especially an issue in getting tanks around during exercises and such in Europe, where you have lots of old roads, old construction that is not able to support 60 tonnes+ and so care is needed in planning routes.So if you've got your robot with feet, just how small a surface area is it's weight being concentrated on when it walks? If you just put a robot torso on a tank base to distribute the weight, what's the advantage over not just making a better tank?

Which is the final issue with a practical military mech - if any of the unobtanium advancements that answer the physical restrains on building a practical robot occur, like super lightweight, super strong materials, great, now you can build a robot, but even more likely, you can apply them to extant vehicles and make them even better more effectively than you can build a robot.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Bookwrack wrote:
Someone upthread mentioned Jules Verne and submarines (although they meant to say 'rockets). The mistake they made though was that rockets were plausible technology.


Jules Verne didn't invent rockets, either. Rockets were in military use in the early 19th century. They feature in the American national anthem, written fourteen years before Verne was born.

I can't think of any successful military technologies that originated as pure fictional contrivance, popularized because they looked cool, and were later found to actually be useful.
   
Made in us
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

Nobody said he did (that's a truely bizarre assumption to make too - in case you didn't know, Jules Verne was a writer, not an inventer). But it was much further future tech than the already extant submarines were.

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
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Made in us
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Slipspace wrote:
I think the crux of the problem in this thread can be summed up from the OP:

geargutz wrote: I'm picky and im stubborn. I'm stubborn that i think the real robot genre can be based in science despite many who say “tanks will always be better” or “the square cube law disagrees with you”


This basically summed up the intent of the OP, to me.
Won't listen unless it's to tell him he's right.
   
Made in us
Gun Mage




 JohnHwangDD wrote:
nobody wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
nobody wrote:
Pacific Rim Jaegers ride the line on the real robots/super robots divide. Uprising tends to lean further into super robot territory though.

That being said, I’d agree that it’s most likely power armor, with a chance of mini-mecha (Heavy Gear/Gasakari) for infantry support.

Larger mecha would require a radical shift in a lot of factors to become practical in front line combat. I think you’d be more likely to see Bolos.


Pacific Rim is 100% super robots. They're fighting Kaiju 1:1 without any realistic military tactics at all. Weapons magically transform out of nowhere. They speak mumbo-jumbo like Star Wars. It's no more "real" than "Midichlorians" and "the Force" are. And it's not even 1/10 as good as Evangelion was when it came out 20(?) years ago! If we're talking about post-Evangelion mecha, then the Gantz Hard Suit and Mecha are far more "real" than Pacific Rim. At least they're all mass-production (from Alien technology transfer).

Patlabor (8m tall) could on the line, if it weren't always played for laughs so often. At 10m (and larger!), they're moving out of the practical range for ground combat, and only really practical for space combat. Heck, Robotech (Macross) can be seen as more real robot than Pacific Rim, where the Veritech military robots are basically fancy aerospace fighters and support units.


None of the Jaeger weapon systems appear out of nowhere, they’re hidden away logically within the mecha in question.

I’m using the tvtropes definitions for super robot vs real robot.

They are built by militaries, are only used against Kaiju and have not fully replaced other military units. There is thought and discussion given towards the logistics of using them in universe (hence why they were being decommissioned at the beginning of the film).

However, they also do have characteristics of super robots in the drift, unique designs, called attacks, etc.


Dude, it's OK like stuff that does a garbage job of dressing up obviously fake stuff, but don't pretend that it's "real".

I'm fully aware of tvtropes, and Pacific Rim is about as real robot as Gundam G. Except that Gundam G is more realistic. And no, tvtropes is not an authoriatative source. In the case of Pacific Rim, the "real" robot stuff is entirely backstory handwavium like "midicholorians" - what you see is Super Robot battles through and through. And the notion that it requires the MIC to make one? A kid made one in a junkyard. It's 99% Super Robot, 1% Real Robot.


You can feel however you want, however, you are not the end all authority on what is/isn't what kind of genre either. Googling around tends to find the same requirements for Real Robot genre vs Super Robot genre, and Pacific Rim (at least the first one) has characteristics that borrow from both (which given GDT's love for anime and kaiju films isn't a huge surprise). Uprising, as I had mentioned originally, takes it more into the Super Robot category.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

nobody wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
nobody wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
nobody wrote:
Pacific Rim Jaegers ride the line on the real robots/super robots divide. Uprising tends to lean further into super robot territory though.

That being said, I’d agree that it’s most likely power armor, with a chance of mini-mecha (Heavy Gear/Gasakari) for infantry support.

Larger mecha would require a radical shift in a lot of factors to become practical in front line combat. I think you’d be more likely to see Bolos.


Pacific Rim is 100% super robots. They're fighting Kaiju 1:1 without any realistic military tactics at all. Weapons magically transform out of nowhere. They speak mumbo-jumbo like Star Wars. It's no more "real" than "Midichlorians" and "the Force" are. And it's not even 1/10 as good as Evangelion was when it came out 20(?) years ago! If we're talking about post-Evangelion mecha, then the Gantz Hard Suit and Mecha are far more "real" than Pacific Rim. At least they're all mass-production (from Alien technology transfer).

Patlabor (8m tall) could on the line, if it weren't always played for laughs so often. At 10m (and larger!), they're moving out of the practical range for ground combat, and only really practical for space combat. Heck, Robotech (Macross) can be seen as more real robot than Pacific Rim, where the Veritech military robots are basically fancy aerospace fighters and support units.


None of the Jaeger weapon systems appear out of nowhere, they’re hidden away logically within the mecha in question.

I’m using the tvtropes definitions for super robot vs real robot.

They are built by militaries, are only used against Kaiju and have not fully replaced other military units. There is thought and discussion given towards the logistics of using them in universe (hence why they were being decommissioned at the beginning of the film).

However, they also do have characteristics of super robots in the drift, unique designs, called attacks, etc.


Dude, it's OK like stuff that does a garbage job of dressing up obviously fake stuff, but don't pretend that it's "real".

I'm fully aware of tvtropes, and Pacific Rim is about as real robot as Gundam G. Except that Gundam G is more realistic. And no, tvtropes is not an authoriatative source. In the case of Pacific Rim, the "real" robot stuff is entirely backstory handwavium like "midicholorians" - what you see is Super Robot battles through and through. And the notion that it requires the MIC to make one? A kid made one in a junkyard. It's 99% Super Robot, 1% Real Robot.


You can feel however you want, however, you are not the end all authority on what is/isn't what kind of genre either. Googling around tends to find the same requirements for Real Robot genre vs Super Robot genre, and Pacific Rim (at least the first one) has characteristics that borrow from both (which given GDT's love for anime and kaiju films isn't a huge surprise). Uprising, as I had mentioned originally, takes it more into the Super Robot category.


I never claimed to be the authority on the subject; however, a neutral view of what Pacific Rim actually shows on screen places the impossibly large, unique Kaiju-fighting robots squarely in the Super Robot category, backstory aside. Trying to claim that they're Real Robot is patently ridiculous when none of this looks like Gundam or VOTOMS or Heavy Gear or Gasaraki or other shows/settings where the biggest enemy is actually an army of other humans as opposed to some sort of alien monster of the week (or movie Act, in the case of Pacific Rim). Merely having the Earth's military involved misses the point of why the military exists - to fight another military force like Zeon / neo-Zeon, Polar forces, and so forth. If you say that being part of the military is the criteria, then you must count Gurren Lagann as a Real Robot when it absolutely is NOT by any stretch of the imagination.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/31 04:06:07


   
Made in us
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 ProtoClone wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
I think the crux of the problem in this thread can be summed up from the OP:

geargutz wrote: I'm picky and im stubborn. I'm stubborn that i think the real robot genre can be based in science despite many who say “tanks will always be better” or “the square cube law disagrees with you”


This basically summed up the intent of the OP, to me.
Won't listen unless it's to tell him he's right.

It's so convenient when you guys just quote the 1st part of that paragraph. Taking what I said out of context. If ur not willing to read and try to understand what I wrote then I won't bother having a conversation with you. Ypu have already made up your mind and it's pointless to talk with you. Have a good day.

"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"

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Douglas Bader






It's not out of context at all. You've made it clear, over and over again in this thread, that only discussion approving of your ideas is "in good faith" and anyone who disputes your claims needs to use more imagination until they agree with you. You've ignored arguments against your giant robot ideas by handwaving away the problems with "technology will solve it" and showed no apparent understanding of how the problems come from fundamental issues of geometry that can not be solved. And when people call you out on your behavior you resort to "you're not worth talking to" instead of addressing the substance of their objections.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets






 Peregrine wrote:
It's not out of context at all. You've made it clear, over and over again in this thread, that only discussion approving of your ideas is "in good faith" and anyone who disputes your claims needs to use more imagination until they agree with you. You've ignored arguments against your giant robot ideas by handwaving away the problems with "technology will solve it" and showed no apparent understanding of how the problems come from fundamental issues of geometry that can not be solved. And when people call you out on your behavior you resort to "you're not worth talking to" instead of addressing the substance of their objections.

 Elbows wrote:
Ah, excellent. Another thread where Peregrine comes in to gak all over peoples enthusiasm...as usual. Stellar.

 Vulcan wrote:
geargutz wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Sorry, but no. The square cube law is just one part of the problem, they would also have massive ground pressure issues and paper-thin armor compared to a tank of similar mass. Add in crippling stability issues, a high and easily targeted profile, etc, and there is no justification for anything larger than power armor (which works despite its flaws because of the need to interact with a human-scale and human-shaped world).

i figured it wouldn't take long for a detractor like his to come in.
maybe you didn't read my "critiques of mechs" section, or maybe i didn't explain it well enough.


No, you explained it perfectly well, Peregrine just exists to dump on threads he disagrees with. The more people who put him on their ignore list, the more smoothly such threads go.

I have a feeling it was pointless talking to you in the 1st place.

"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"

geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket" 
   
Made in cz
Mysterious Techpriest






Fortress world of Ostrakan

 Peregrine wrote:
It's not out of context at all. You've made it clear, over and over again in this thread, that only discussion approving of your ideas is "in good faith" and anyone who disputes your claims needs to use more imagination until they agree with you. You've ignored arguments against your giant robot ideas by handwaving away the problems with "technology will solve it" and showed no apparent understanding of how the problems come from fundamental issues of geometry that can not be solved. And when people call you out on your behavior you resort to "you're not worth talking to" instead of addressing the substance of their objections.


Sorry to say, but Peregrine (and not just him) is more or less right in this one.

Big humanoid mechs and robots you love so much are most probably not going to happen in foreseeable future, if ever. Why has been explained many times over.
If we ever see a walking machine deployed in combat, it will most probably be a multi-legged crawler not bigger than a truck, or something similar to AMP (still unlikely though) or a powered exoskeleton, that are already in development.

Something like this:


Neutran Panzergrenadiers, Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, Order of the Silver Hand
My fan-lore: Europan Planetary federation. Hot topic: Help with Minotaurs chapter Killteam






 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets






i think this thread has gone off topic.
geargutz wrote:

But what i plan to do is honor the “good” examples of real robots (sprinkled with some critique). If there's an example of a real robot that i didn't cover then feel free to tell me and i'll cover it,whether i think it's a good example or not and why i think so based on my picky and stubborn point of view

I myself helped derail it. The detractors came in and i took the bait and tried to debate with them and lost track of my original goal. To honor and critique the great examples of real robots out there.

I was going to eventually get to that...but with the thread quickly turning into yet another “mechs aren't possible” bash fest, it has greatly demoralized me. I gave into trying to argue with perigrin/slipspace/bookwrack and others and it only backfired.

I apologize that this became another anti mech spank thread. Ill no longer comment on this thread as ill be starting another thread soon that covers more of the intent i wanted this thread to be about.
Again, i apologize if you came into this thread and it was not what you were expecting.
Of course you guys can still continue debating whatever you want to here. But i won't be participating anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/31 06:58:56


"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"

geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket" 
   
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Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

geargutz wrote:
I was going to eventually get to that...but with the thread quickly turning into yet another “mechs aren't possible” bash fest, it has greatly demoralized me.

I apologize that this became another anti mech spank thread.
I have to disagree, this isn't a "Anti Mech" or even a bash mech thread... Now there can be a disagreement by what person considers a "real" robot but that is irrelevant. The main thing I see being discussed is what is possible and what is probable, given today's technology.

It is absolutely possible to create "giant robots" but as it has pointed out, there isn't a huge benefit that smaller, cheaper machinery doesn't work. It is absolutely possible to create them but it is not probable because of the two limiting factors, cost and technology level. To create something new and for it to sustain that creation it has to fit a need that is lacking for it to fill. Power-armor or power assisted suits have more benefits in terms of operation, creation, maintenance costs vs something that our infrastructure (street, city, etc) isn't designed for. Until those at least two of the things change, either cost, technology level and/or need it just isn't something that makes sense to create currently.

Now if you don't want to have a discussion about how robots fit into todays world but instead just want to talk about fandom about various robots genres, sure let's talk about those specifically. And not try to get them to fit into current world while also not saying "X aren't real robots" because what each person considers "real" can be subjective. If the goal is discuss and praise robots as a fandom then talk about what you like and why without detracting into what is possible or not possible (after all, those settings are all scifi/fiction).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/31 19:24:01


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Hawky wrote:
Big humanoid mechs and robots you love so much are most probably not going to happen in foreseeable future, if ever. Why has been explained many times over.

If we ever see a walking machine deployed in combat, it will most probably be a multi-legged crawler not bigger than a truck, or something similar to AMP (still unlikely though) or a powered exoskeleton, that are already in development.


I basically agree that any warbot would be truck-sized or smaller.

The existing 4-legged cargo mule could easily be converted into an armed drone with a Mortar and/or anti-tank missiles. This would scale up to various platoon-attached remotely-piloted self-propelled artillery pieces: howitzers, missile systems, anti-tank cannon, and so forth. Small, lightly armored against small arms fire. Computerized "smart" targeting. It's a very basic thing. Proper design has these "containerized" for transport in 3'x3'x18' pods that stack 4 to a standard intermodal shipping container that easily loads onto a LMTV or slings under a Blackhawk.

The powered exoskeleton goes production, and it gets continuously upscaled from 2m to a 3m powered infantry suit. Eventually, things upscale to 4m, 5m tall battlesuits / mini-mechs with progressively more capacity and armor, limited by the need to still fit in a standard 20' cargo container for global shipping. In theory, you could have something as large as 6m, but it starts to get difficult to hide because it's so tall.

OTOH, if you are against giant monsters, then yes, you need to go big to match:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/01 04:57:34


   
Made in us
Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

Kalashnikov battle robot concept



Kalashnikov shared the walker during the Army-2018 international military forum and expo going on this week near Moscow. The weapons company says the goal would be to use the walker to solve engineering and combat tasks and promises to unveil more about its capabilities sometime in the future.
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Looks like a solution in search of mission easy enough to pull off.
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

I think in the near term, there is a niche for mechs that fill the role between infantry and support vehicle - where “boots on the ground” are needed, but would benefit from increased firepower and protection. Something in the 2-3 meter tall range. As someone else mentioned, it would fit the sort of niche that arose for using helicopters - quicker than a tank, but with more “staying time” than an airplane.

I also think that after we see the first few generations of these in use, we’ll progressively see them become larger and perhaps gain deference over the deployment of tanks; especially if they remain one-man vehicles with equivalent firepower and longevity. Especially if they can prove to be more useful in an urban environment.

Of course, I doubt we’ll see the Pacific Rim sized mechs and Battletech/Robotech scale mechs would be unlikely unless their humanoid form brings some significant advantage over just trucking in a huge gun-toting vehicle. But even tanks have their limit to how big and heavy they are feasible at (such as the Maus).

It never ends well 
   
 
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