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BrianDavion wrote:
hoenstly if GSC are engaged in an EVEN pitched battle with Space Marines they're proably hosed. GSCs should should have some tricky strats to even the odds. (and being cheaper then Marines should be able to fire off more of em. I can't imagine a pure Marine army having more then 10 CPs tops)

Of course. And like I pointed out, with all the new stuff, it's just the initial 'What to do' that comes with a good looking codex that has plenty of tools and what I see as counters to my own tool-kit.

And the Codex does look good. The Erratas will help the other books a bit, but if this is the template going forward, I bet they will also see similar changes in their books to make them stand closer to SM. Maybe even more new stuff.

BrianDavion wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
CSM/BA/DA/SW/GK no enhanced Chapter/Legion tactics.

Welcome to the land of the screwed over.

Well - there is one advantage to this setup. Your vigilis stratagems did not get hikes. So that is 1 thing going for Chaos. You will have to wait till the next big rules update until CSM squads go down to 12 points...It is pretty disappointing. I just don't get how a company with so many resources can be so poor about this.

Wait... why would any of the vigilus stratagems get hikes? Some of them already cost more CP than they are actually worth.

some of them cost 2 CPs instead of 1, but you no longer need to pay the 1 CP detachment tax so it evens out

No it doesn't. Paying 1 to be able to pay 1 to pay another 1 was stupid. Paying 2 every time is both not balanced out, and not not stupid. If you used it every turn, it used to cost 3 for the first use, and 5 more for 5 more turns - 8 Now it costs you 2 for the first one and 10 more for 5 more turns or 12. And Space Marines don't get 12 CP. Battallion, Battleforged and 3 from Guilliman is only 11. That's not balanced out. Balanced out is making it work like the Guard (who wouldn't even miss the 1 they pay for the unit to pay 1 for the ability) where you just get the formation, and pay 1 for the ability. Not pay 1 for the ability to pay 1 for the ability.

Guard could easily have 12 CP in a 2,000 point army just from a double Battalion. Add another 4 or so from another detachment and battleforged - and they easily have 16. And they were paying 1 for an Artillery Company detach, and all the artillery in that detach got the ability. They didn't have to pay 1 for each arty unit. All of them got it.

The Space Marines - assuming they're playing Guilliman or Calgar - will have 5 for Battalion, 3 for battle forced and 2-3 for Calgar/Guilliman. for a total of 10-11. They had to pay 1 for the detachment, 1 for EACH Intercessor unit, AND 1 for the stratagem. The upfront costs for SM were insane - however the costs now are even worse.

 Carnikang wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
That's not weird...it's excellent. My first immediate gripe when those units were launched was that if they went to 6-10 guys per squad, you'd see three squads in every single tournament list ever fielded by a marine player (heck you might still).

Imagine 18-30 shots (now even better - stronger and can benefit from discipline to boost AP...) shooting down any character on the board regardless of line of sight? Even nine of them (3x3) is already a bit disgusting considering how cheap they are.

They're not killing Characters super quick hold your horses.

Care to explain? Because my T-shirt save Magus/Primus/Clamavus/etc are not happy about them, plus the Scoutmaris suddenly being pretty good, plus T1-T6 drop pods.... I mean, it's kinda just one thing to worry about among a good few. And while normally I don't like to pre-emptively complain about something without playing it, but I look at a lot of the changes and just wonder 'How the fudge am i going to effectively fight this book(s) as GSC/Nids?"

Wow you mean your Cult Characters where everyone jumps in front of them to save them? Those Characters? Yeah you don't get any sympathy sorry.

You mean the ability that goes off 50% of the time? An ability that means nothing in a world where Intercessors are Rapid Firing from across the board/tac squads bombard in drop-pods/Aggressors are ripping guardsman bodies apart with boltstorm mittens/A new 'Not a Dread' can fire flamers into my deployment zone T1/etc and wiping my protective squads away? Like I said, it's not just that. It's all of what's coming in the book.
So, nice comeback and congrats on having no sympathy. Keep pushing that boot against the back of Non-Imperial Necks so they get a nice mouthful of that bolter shell filled mud.

I love you're complaining that your cheap stuff MIGHT die. Not even Guard players are gonna make that complaint.

And yeah that ability that goes off 50% of the time makes those cheap HQ units you can buy so much of twice as durable basically. Yeah you don't get sympathy and the fact you are complaining is fething entitled for a Cult player.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
That's not weird...it's excellent. My first immediate gripe when those units were launched was that if they went to 6-10 guys per squad, you'd see three squads in every single tournament list ever fielded by a marine player (heck you might still).

Imagine 18-30 shots (now even better - stronger and can benefit from discipline to boost AP...) shooting down any character on the board regardless of line of sight? Even nine of them (3x3) is already a bit disgusting considering how cheap they are.

They're not killing Characters super quick hold your horses.

Care to explain? Because my T-shirt save Magus/Primus/Clamavus/etc are not happy about them, plus the Scoutmaris suddenly being pretty good, plus T1-T6 drop pods.... I mean, it's kinda just one thing to worry about among a good few. And while normally I don't like to pre-emptively complain about something without playing it, but I look at a lot of the changes and just wonder 'How the fudge am i going to effectively fight this book(s) as GSC/Nids?"

Wow you mean your Cult Characters where everyone jumps in front of them to save them? Those Characters? Yeah you don't get any sympathy sorry.

You mean the ability that goes off 50% of the time? An ability that means nothing in a world where Intercessors are Rapid Firing from across the board/tac squads bombard in drop-pods/Aggressors are ripping guardsman bodies apart with boltstorm mittens/A new 'Not a Dread' can fire flamers into my deployment zone T1/etc and wiping my protective squads away? Like I said, it's not just that. It's all of what's coming in the book.
So, nice comeback and congrats on having no sympathy. Keep pushing that boot against the back of Non-Imperial Necks so they get a nice mouthful of that bolter shell filled mud.

I love you're complaining that your cheap stuff MIGHT die. Not even Guard players are gonna make that complaint.

And yeah that ability that goes off 50% of the time makes those cheap HQ units you can buy so much of twice as durable basically. Yeah you don't get sympathy and the fact you are complaining is fething entitled for a Cult player.

You mistake concern for complaint, I have yet to do so. It's like you don't even read. That's fine though, enjoy your power armor while the creep is in your favor.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Anyone else that (in addition to being Str5) the Eliminators Bolt sniper Executioner Rounds & Mirtis rounds swapped profiles?

Why would they do that? The profile with AP-2 Dd3 and causing MWs should be named Executioner.
That's a weird thing to swap

-

You know what's actually weird is Eliminators being stuck at 3 dudes.

No, I'm actually thankful for that. Not only for game balance as 3 units of 5 could almost guarantee support characters don't get to play past turn 1, but also from a realism aspect. 3 big boys can be more covert than 5+
But of course we are talking about a sub-faction that uses a sneaky cowboy Dreadnought, so they aren't exactly consistent with the realism

-

 Dysartes wrote:
One thing that was nice to see, though, was that they explicitly patched Angels of Death onto FW units.

Yay, more ""marine"" and ""csm"" lists consisting of nothing but 4 Leviathans or 6 Deredeos. I was sick of that crap before and now, with new IH trait and doctrines on top of old nonsense, it will be even more ""fun"" to face Let's see, FNP, no degradation, better overwatch, no doubt excellent repair from new IH character and IH librarian discipline, ++ saves, buffed AP, I have a feeling Knights will soon disappear from tables if IH supplement is any good...

 Irbis wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
One thing that was nice to see, though, was that they explicitly patched Angels of Death onto FW units.

Yay, more ""marine"" and ""csm"" lists consisting of nothing but 4 Leviathans or 6 Deredeos. I was sick of that crap before and now, with new IH trait and doctrines on top of old nonsense, it will be even more ""fun"" to face Let's see, FNP, no degradation, better overwatch, no doubt excellent repair from new IH character and IH librarian discipline, ++ saves, buffed AP, I have a feeling Knights will soon disappear from tables if IH supplement is any good...

According to quite a few posters on here, reducing the number of Knights in favour of pure SM armies would be a good thing.

And it is a good thing as it shows, for once, that the Studio remembered that they have these FW units out there, and that their rules need tweaking at the same time as units in the main book. Hopefully this will become a pattern if future books staple rules onto a faction - and maybe, when the Autumn FAQ roles around, we might see other FW units reviewed if rules or keywords are missing.

It'd've been even better if they'd remembered the Index-only units as well, but it is an improvement.