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 Ordana wrote:
Army list document is on the previous page.

Top 10 (think all were undefeated) was
#1 Anthony Chew - Aeldari
#2 Mani Cheema - Aeldari
#3 Patrik Sanfilippo - Space Marines
#4 Innes Wilson - Space Marines
#5 Joshua Death - Space Marines
#6 Richard Simms - Aeldari
#7 Michele Merlano - Imperial Knights
#8 Chris Gent - Space Marines
#9 Henry Chown - Imperium
#10 Markus Hinson - Imperium

Left the n off my name. Shouldn't be hard to copy and paste. For shame!

FWIW my “Imperium” army was basically Knights. I had 3 Taranis knights, a Krastsader and a Graia rusty 17. Got some pretty low scores in my first few games because I haven’t played much in the ITC format (and my first two games were against nurgle), but did better on day 2. I was bottom of the people who went 5:0 - I think Markus got 4 wins and a draw.

On the cheating issue, as the video points out, this is not just a problem for the LGT. It’s a problem for the whole community. Outright cheating is not punished in 40k, so people do it and get away with it, then come back and do it again. The guy responsible has a boatload of trophies and a whole horde of people now coming out to say how he cheated them at this or that event. Another thread on FB asking for accounts of cheating went on for a lot of comments.

The LGT was actually a great event this year. The organisers put on a massive effort and it ran very well, mostly. There weren’t many judges but it looks like they made an effort to help. But the lack of sanction for cheating isn’t exclusive to the LGT – it’s pervasive across all tournaments. Judges need to be giving people zeroes across an event if they’re caught deliberately cheating.

We players have a role to play in fixing this. First, we have to report issues. None of us want to be the snitch who goes and tells on people but we have to. It’s really hard to look another player in the eye and accuse them of cheating – and we shouldn’t have to – but that’s what is needed.

Once people learn that they cannot cheat their way to the podium of a major, they’ll be forced to change. Until then, they’ll carry on.

I didn’t experience any cheating but I did have an round opponent who was feeling really unwell. Our game didn’t go at all well for him and at the start of his turn 3 he said he didn’t want to play any more, without having yet deployed most of his GSC army. I could understand how he felt – the dice were playing on my team in that game and he could barely stand up, but treating it as a straight concession would have been harsh. It would be good to have a bit more guidance on what to do in the event that a player is unable to continue playing.

One thing they did do was make all of us on 4:0 use these crappy little dice for game 5. Bit irritating as I’d spent quite a lot on some proper casino dice that I’m sure would roll fairer, if tested. But that would at least prevent someone from bringing loaded dice – at least in one game out of 5. Plus it stopped me throwing my massive dice and knocking models into more advantageous positions, which was crucial in my other four games (joking!).

I actually find that the atmosphere at tournaments is usually pretty good. Most of us are there to play as well as we can with our toy soldiers, but also to have a fun weekend. I think things are improving, slowly.

Mandragola wrote:

One thing they did do was make all of us on 4:0 use these crappy little dice for game 5. Bit irritating as I’d spent quite a lot on some proper casino dice that I’m sure would roll fairer, if tested. But that would at least prevent someone from bringing loaded dice – at least in one game out of 5. Plus it stopped me throwing my massive dice and knocking models into more advantageous positions, which was crucial in my other four games (joking!).

FWIW, I stopped using casino dice simply because without being able to throw them across the table, I didn't really feel like I was getting enough randomization to feel like they were really fair to my opponent.

 LunarSol wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

One thing they did do was make all of us on 4:0 use these crappy little dice for game 5. Bit irritating as I’d spent quite a lot on some proper casino dice that I’m sure would roll fairer, if tested. But that would at least prevent someone from bringing loaded dice – at least in one game out of 5. Plus it stopped me throwing my massive dice and knocking models into more advantageous positions, which was crucial in my other four games (joking!).

FWIW, I stopped using casino dice simply because without being able to throw them across the table, I didn't really feel like I was getting enough randomization to feel like they were really fair to my opponent.

Casino dice should be banned from wargaming, without rounded corners or edges they slide on gaming mats. I have seen a person call and roll (slide) sixes fairly consistently with them on a game mat just to demonstrate it. They are meant to be bounced off a rubber bumper pad on a casino table, not dropped by the fist full onto neoprene.

If everyone thinks there should be some repercussion for when cheating takes place, why is it considered bad form to name the cheater at LGT? Several people have called this guy out, just at this LGT. He's got a serious reputation for this type of crap at others.

But the overall feeling is, if you name him to publicly shame him, you are wrong.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If everyone thinks there should be some repercussion for when cheating takes place, why is it considered bad form to name the cheater at LGT? Several people have called this guy out, just at this LGT. He's got a serious reputation for this type of crap at others.

But the overall feeling is, if you name him to publicly shame him, you are wrong.

Depends on context. When there was a video of incidents at last year's LGT, or when the ATC thing happened and multiple people came forward before the various videos/podcasts were made, naming the players was on much firmer ground. In this case, at the time of the original video, it was basically one person's word against another's and in those circumstances the appropriate thing to do is not to name the individual in order to prevent witch hunts based on potential misinformation or misunderstanding. Of course, by not naming them you run the risk of increasing that misunderstanding and having unfounded rumours doing the rounds. However, in this case it seems the player's name is now out in the public domain because the video triggered a wave of people relating similar problems. I suspect they'll have a hard time at future tournaments if they continue with this type of behaviour.

There's also sometimes a fine line between cheating and misunderstanding the rules. For example, the original video included a discussion of a debate about the targeting rules where, IMO, the rules actually clearly say what the alleged cheater believed them to say and not what the person making the video thought they said. In this case there's probably no malice on the part of the video creator but it's used as an example of cheating on the part of the other player, which is unfair, IMO. Having said that, the cheater then went on to argue with the ref about it, which is poor behaviour (and should probably result in an instant warning from the ref).

Slipspace wrote:
In this case, at the time of the original video, it was basically one person's word against another's and in those circumstances the appropriate thing to do is not to name the individual in order to prevent witch hunts based on potential misinformation or misunderstanding.

And it's not like there's not been such witch hunts vs non cheaters in dakka(there has been). So yeah going public with name should come with proof and judgement. Aka that should be done by TO's and not random video makers.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

One thing they did do was make all of us on 4:0 use these crappy little dice for game 5. Bit irritating as I’d spent quite a lot on some proper casino dice that I’m sure would roll fairer, if tested. But that would at least prevent someone from bringing loaded dice – at least in one game out of 5. Plus it stopped me throwing my massive dice and knocking models into more advantageous positions, which was crucial in my other four games (joking!).

FWIW, I stopped using casino dice simply because without being able to throw them across the table, I didn't really feel like I was getting enough randomization to feel like they were really fair to my opponent.

Casino dice should be banned from wargaming, without rounded corners or edges they slide on gaming mats. I have seen a person call and roll (slide) sixes fairly consistently with them on a game mat just to demonstrate it. They are meant to be bounced off a rubber bumper pad on a casino table, not dropped by the fist full onto neoprene.

Interesting point. I haven't been finding that my dice slide to be honest, but I did get them before soft gaming mats were a thing. I'm not sure they're any less random than normal dice. I bought them initially because they were supposed to produce very good random results.

The weird thing about the tiny dice at the LGT is that I'd expect small dice like that to be less fair, as the holes on one side or other would affect the weight more. I'm not really an expert on this though, and at least by giving the same dice to both sides it made things fair.

I have more issues with guys throwing an extra 1-6 dice into a pile of 40+ shots, and yanking the extra in the confusion. Cheater dice are not really a big issue. It's the meta cheating that seems to constantly be a problem.

Movement cheating, wound cheating, Stratagem make believe, slow play, these are all the major things that we are constantly seeing.

Makes you really wonder at what isn't getting seen. For instance, how would you know if:

Card counting/setting the deck
Spying/using a friend/proxy
Being friendly with/biased judge/TO/Ref
Arguing for slow play
Modelling for advantage

There are laundry lists of potential cheats, but to be fair, what would the effect of registering players be? Everyone goes on the same list, their wins/losses are tracked, their scores, etc. Any black marks, goes on the record. It wouldn't be hard, and no personal information would be put on it. Just name, sponser, and player data.

Are people really making up stratagems?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are people really making up stratagems?

The player in question here apparently did that in an earlier game. Part of the problem is the sheer amount of rules bloat GW has added to the game, combined with the weird and unbalanced nature of the stratagems. It's a bit like formations in 7th edition - some were so powerful they felt like cheating, which meant pretty much anything was believable as far as the rules went.

Having said that, I think if a player is caught doing that and it's not a misunderstanding of a different stratagem, that should be an instant DQ. If competitive 40k wants to weed out this type of player it needs stronger rules on these kinds of behaviours and actual enforcement.

I will freely admit, there are many armies I have NO idea what is in their codex, and I don't have the time to read and digest that much crap.

If my Necron opponent told me that his HQ doober does a move where he rolls off a D6, moves that many inches towards the nearest enemy, and does D3 mortal wounds to any units within 3", I don't have time to check that or ask him for his codex. It's really sad, that it has to come down to a gentleman's agreement. I expect him to not call me out for evidence of every stratagem I play, and waste my time arguing.

There is NO way for me to know I am being cheated, without slowing down the game and wasting his clock time, which is kinda wrong.

There is a major issue with rules bloat.

If you are that clueless about your opponent’s army, have you considered looking at his Codex on his turn to at least get a clue about what you are facing.

Honestly it has happened, afterwards the rule was so egregious I asked to see, and he showed me, and I pointed out where it was misplayed. Like others have said,. I can't prove intent, and it's too late at that point.

This has to come down to experience. But be honest, there is no way an amateur could be or should be expected to memorize other codexes to avoid being cheated. And mid match, I don't have time to ask him to let me have his codex. I'm watching other things, like dice, movement, wound counters.

Everytime I take my eyes off the table is a far greater chance of being cheated than if I rules check every suspect ability.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honestly it has happened, afterwards the rule was so egregious I asked to see, and he showed me, and I pointed out where it was misplayed. Like others have said,. I can't prove intent, and it's too late at that point.

This has to come down to experience. But be honest, there is no way an amateur could be or should be expected to memorize other codexes to avoid being cheated. And mid match, I don't have time to ask him to let me have his codex. I'm watching other things, like dice, movement, wound counters.

Everytime I take my eyes off the table is a far greater chance of being cheated than if I rules check every suspect ability.

Yeah, against the experienced cheater, you don't have time to do that.

I played a game once where my opponent was palming extra dice, moving extra inches, ignoring rules that limited him, etc... I spent more time focussing on keeping him "clean" then being able to play my own game.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honestly it has happened, afterwards the rule was so egregious I asked to see, and he showed me, and I pointed out where it was misplayed. Like others have said,. I can't prove intent, and it's too late at that point.

This has to come down to experience. But be honest, there is no way an amateur could be or should be expected to memorize other codexes to avoid being cheated. And mid match, I don't have time to ask him to let me have his codex. I'm watching other things, like dice, movement, wound counters.

Everytime I take my eyes off the table is a far greater chance of being cheated than if I rules check every suspect ability.

I think you're overstating the potential to be cheated quite significantly. You shouldn't be going into any game expecting your opponent to cheat as the vast majority of players don't cheat. Sure, a player could always try to make up rules or stratagems, but there's a huge risk attached to that since it's pretty obviously cheating. Much more likely is someone rolling too many dice, measuring an extra inch or two for movement or aura ranges or things of that nature. If a player is really determined to do that there's nothing you can really do unfortunately. In my experience, most cheaters are actually pretty bad at hiding it (or the ones who are good are really good and never get caught, I suppose) but the one consistent thing I've seen with people who cheat is they can't help themselves and will try to get away with more and more gak to the point it becomes quite obvious they're cheating.

The rules bloat is somehting GW needs to address, not just from a cheating pont of view either. Many other tabletop games have systems where all information is open information which can help stop cheating at the source. One potential solution to things like invented stratagems is forcing players to use the datacards for their army and actually place the card on the table when they use a stratagem, that way the opponent can easily read the card to get the full rules.

Slipspace wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honestly it has happened, afterwards the rule was so egregious I asked to see, and he showed me, and I pointed out where it was misplayed. Like others have said,. I can't prove intent, and it's too late at that point.

This has to come down to experience. But be honest, there is no way an amateur could be or should be expected to memorize other codexes to avoid being cheated. And mid match, I don't have time to ask him to let me have his codex. I'm watching other things, like dice, movement, wound counters.

Everytime I take my eyes off the table is a far greater chance of being cheated than if I rules check every suspect ability.

I think you're overstating the potential to be cheated quite significantly. You shouldn't be going into any game expecting your opponent to cheat as the vast majority of players don't cheat. Sure, a player could always try to make up rules or stratagems, but there's a huge risk attached to that since it's pretty obviously cheating. Much more likely is someone rolling too many dice, measuring an extra inch or two for movement or aura ranges or things of that nature. If a player is really determined to do that there's nothing you can really do unfortunately. In my experience, most cheaters are actually pretty bad at hiding it (or the ones who are good are really good and never get caught, I suppose) but the one consistent thing I've seen with people who cheat is they can't help themselves and will try to get away with more and more gak to the point it becomes quite obvious they're cheating.

The rules bloat is somehting GW needs to address, not just from a cheating pont of view either. Many other tabletop games have systems where all information is open information which can help stop cheating at the source. One potential solution to things like invented stratagems is forcing players to use the datacards for their army and actually place the card on the table when they use a stratagem, that way the opponent can easily read the card to get the full rules.

Got a source on these assertions? I am not going to lie here, about 25% of the games I have played at events contain some instance of at best, rules misunderstandings. At worst, blatant cheating. I can't say where the line starts/stops on percentages of cheaters, but to make a blanket assertion that you shouldn't expect cheating at events is asking to get taken advantage of.

I am not likely to get mugged or robbed on the way to work in the NYC subway, but I still don't pretend it's impossible, and assume everyone is my friend. It has happened, and it will continue to happen in the future to others. The only way to combat it is to be vigilant and stand up for yourself.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honestly it has happened, afterwards the rule was so egregious I asked to see, and he showed me, and I pointed out where it was misplayed. Like others have said,. I can't prove intent, and it's too late at that point.

This has to come down to experience. But be honest, there is no way an amateur could be or should be expected to memorize other codexes to avoid being cheated. And mid match, I don't have time to ask him to let me have his codex. I'm watching other things, like dice, movement, wound counters.

Everytime I take my eyes off the table is a far greater chance of being cheated than if I rules check every suspect ability.

I think you're overstating the potential to be cheated quite significantly. You shouldn't be going into any game expecting your opponent to cheat as the vast majority of players don't cheat. Sure, a player could always try to make up rules or stratagems, but there's a huge risk attached to that since it's pretty obviously cheating. Much more likely is someone rolling too many dice, measuring an extra inch or two for movement or aura ranges or things of that nature. If a player is really determined to do that there's nothing you can really do unfortunately. In my experience, most cheaters are actually pretty bad at hiding it (or the ones who are good are really good and never get caught, I suppose) but the one consistent thing I've seen with people who cheat is they can't help themselves and will try to get away with more and more gak to the point it becomes quite obvious they're cheating.

The rules bloat is somehting GW needs to address, not just from a cheating pont of view either. Many other tabletop games have systems where all information is open information which can help stop cheating at the source. One potential solution to things like invented stratagems is forcing players to use the datacards for their army and actually place the card on the table when they use a stratagem, that way the opponent can easily read the card to get the full rules.

Got a source on these assertions? I am not going to lie here, about 25% of the games I have played at events contain some instance of at best, rules misunderstandings. At worst, blatant cheating. I can't say where the line starts/stops on percentages of cheaters, but to make a blanket assertion that you shouldn't expect cheating at events is asking to get taken advantage of.

I am not likely to get mugged or robbed on the way to work in the NYC subway, but I still don't pretend it's impossible, and assume everyone is my friend. It has happened, and it will continue to happen in the future to others. The only way to combat it is to be vigilant and stand up for yourself.

A source? Years of tournament experience in both GW and other tabletop games. I've played hundreds of tournament games and watched at least parts of hundreds more and the frequency of actual cheating is very, very low. There are rules disputes and misunderstandings of course, but you need to use a bit of common sense and judgement to determine whether that's someone trying to take advantage of you or a genuine misunderstanding. In the vast majority of cases any such misunderstandings are cleared up with a quick check of the rules - no harm, no foul.

Acting as if everyone is trying to cheat you (or mug you or rob you) seems like an extremely paranoid and tiring way to live your life and is completely divorced from reality.

Honestly I’ve seen a fair bit of cheating, and far more of what I’d term “honest mistakes”. I’ve made them myself too – there are an awful lot of rules to remember and people do honestly get them wrong. Not long ago I went through most of a tournament thinking that heavy onslaught gatling cannons had a 36” range instead of 30”. That probably didn’t change very much but it’s a bit embarrassing. You just have to hold your hands up and apologise.

It’s hard to tell when someone crosses a line between a mistake and what you might call a “deliberate mistake”. Their reaction when you point it out tells you a lot. If they are embarrassed or annoyed at themselves and apologise, then all is well. If they’re annoyed with you for pointing out their error then it’s more likely they’re annoyed at getting caught.

People do cheat with stratagems. I made sure to read the GSC codex before my first game against them so when my opponent claimed he could have a unit set up within 3” and shoot in the movement phase for 3CP, I was able to point out that he needed to use two strats to do this, for 5CP.

This might actually have won me the game. My opponent was using the strat to deploy his pistol guy to shoot up a screening unit of Skitarii. Because of having to deploy 9” away he couldn’t see all of them, so when one survived it was out of LoS when the shooting phase came around. That guy then lived through an attack by a Mortar squad (thanks to a CP reroll for a save) and was therefore still there at the start of turn 3, keeping the scary Abominants nice and far away from my knights.

He probably should have just dropped in his unit of 17 flamer guys instead of the pistol guy, and incinerated all my screens. Not sure if that would have dealt with my tech priests in cover though, so maybe he wanted to keep the unit back.

But the reaction was telling. He seemed annoyed at me that he hadn’t been able to do his illegal play and kill my last skitari and he got increasingly unhappy when the mortars whiffed. Maybe if he hadn’t done that he’d have thought to just use the acolytes instead to get the job done, or else paid the extra 2CP and guaranteed the kill.

Does anyone ever stop to think that they might be making an honest mistake too, but don't know? Because its an honest mistake and you don't know until someone points it out. I would guess many people here pointing fingers probably also make rule errors, the rules are complex and the interactions frequently not straightforward. Frankly if you play a lot of ITC the tournament circuit isn't that big and I could imagine a world where '25%' of the people who must be cheating are actually in this thread commenting and complaining... A funny thought!