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Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Why would a Tau player refuse to play Knights?

His basic troop choice, a Fire Warrior, can be buffed up to gun those down with ease. Just use marker lights for +1 BS, and Focus Fire stratagem, and he's hitting Knights on a 3+, wounding on a 4+, with his basic troopers.

Tau is one of the armies that just dumpters Knights. Seems like he is being difficult for the sake of being difficult.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





 Horst wrote:
Why would a Tau player refuse to play Knights?

His basic troop choice, a Fire Warrior, can be buffed up to gun those down with ease. Just use marker lights for +1 BS, and Focus Fire stratagem, and he's hitting Knights on a 3+, wounding on a 4+, with his basic troopers.

Tau is one of the armies that just dumpters Knights. Seems like he is being difficult for the sake of being difficult.
That issue aside, it seems like the knight player is not a very good sport and rage quits if two of his knights die. I think its more of a player-to-player thing than army-to-army thing.
   
Made in us
Beast of Nurgle




Or that the Tau player is mostly suits and lacks any interest in retooling just for Knights.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Or that the Tau player is mostly suits and lacks any interest in retooling just for Knights.


Suits kill Knights even harder than fire warriors...

As for the Knights player quitting after losing 2 Knights, it depends when it happens. I've been in tournaments with my Knights list vs Tau, I get first turn, kill a bunch of shield drones, then on his turn he kills 2 of my Knights. It's not any fun to play at that point, because you know you're going to lose now that 1/2 your army is gone, and you're just trying to see if you can at least lose with a couple of points. In a non-tournament game, I'd just concede and go do something else. Hell, even in tournament games I'll concede if the game is obviously over and there's no reason to keep going. I was playing vs a Tau player with my Knights / Guard list, after 2 turns of just killing shield drones I said to hell with it and just quit, because I'd already lost 2 games that tournament, I wasn't having fun, and I'd rather just go home than keep playing the Tau... if you think Knights are unfun to play against, Tau are worse. They are by far the most annoying army in this game.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I've declined games in the past if I didn't think it was going to be fun or fair game. I've never played against all knights because I just wouldn't have fun against that. I've played very few games in 7th and 8th against super friends or very small model count armies just because I don't see it as fun to have the majority of my army worthless (7th edition vs knights) or forced to play objectives and not really have a back and forth instead it;s just a major of not dying to claim objectives and hope for the best. Magnus, Morty, 30pt renegade psyker in a 1k point game? Yeah no I'm gonna hard pass on that one.

I don't think there's anything wrong with turning down a game as long as it's of course done respectfully. Communication is key with this hobby and that means communicating what kind of games you want to have and working with your gaming community to meet each other halfway. Be open and communicate open and honestly.

Also conceding a game is perfectly ok if done in the right way for the right reason. Don't get 1st turn and immediately concede? Very poor sport. Even if you say well hey 1st turn means I auto-lose then you should have never agreed to the game if the lists were that unbalanced. Conceding once it's painfully obvious you can't win and it's just a stomp? Yeah that's totally fine and understandable. You never want either player to feel like a target dummy so don't do it to others and don't put yourself through needless suffering.

I once made the mistake in 8th of setting up a game, but not talking about list strength. Showed up with Primaris (older game about 1 year ago) against a pretty tuned Tau list. Needless to say I was halfway tabled turn 1 when they went first. I conceded halfway through my own shooting when what was left was entirely unable to kill hardly any drones and it was a forgone conclusion I was toast .We shook hands and acknowledged it was a failure on both our parts to pre-arrange an understanding of army strength. After that we set up another game of similar strength lists and had a blast.

A bad example was two guys having a game. They are in deployment. harlie player sees the guard/marine soup player deployed his baneblade just out of t1 charge range at the advice of another player who was watching. harlie player got upset and just immediately conceded because of not having a guaranteed t1 charge.

It's all about communication. Talk to your community and work together to set up fun games for everyone involved.

 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




Honestly, I think the all-knight army I'm imagining is just different from the one everyone else seems to be imagining. If you've got a mix of armigers, medium knights and big boy knights and a mix of melee and range, I think it's less of a skew list than most all-vehicle or all-infantry lists that most people don't mind playing against.

Sure, if it's like 3 crusaders and a castellan and they just sit still and shoot all game, that's super freakin' boring and I can totally understand not wanting to play against it. but no unit is "totally invalidated/useless" in a game with helverins. Get into combat with it with anything and it stops shooting, even the lightest infantry unit can accomplish that.

   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






BrianDavion wrote:
Sounds to me like there are no innocent players here, refusing to play someone's army seems kinda lame, on the other hand it sounds like your knight player is pretty classless as well


I dunno, I tend to agree with the Tau player. The second I see a knight (loyal or chaos or otherwise) I say GG and move on. I'm not interested in wasting my time with a game that has essentially become P2W.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Togusa wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Sounds to me like there are no innocent players here, refusing to play someone's army seems kinda lame, on the other hand it sounds like your knight player is pretty classless as well


I dunno, I tend to agree with the Tau player. The second I see a knight (loyal or chaos or otherwise) I say GG and move on. I'm not interested in wasting my time with a game that has essentially become P2W.

Seriously Pay to win you realise Mono Knights have a lower win percentage than Drukari, Aldari, Admech, Harlequins, but yeah clealry a pay to win list.
Soup is pay to win mono anything is always a weaker way to play 8th edition.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Ice_can wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Sounds to me like there are no innocent players here, refusing to play someone's army seems kinda lame, on the other hand it sounds like your knight player is pretty classless as well


I dunno, I tend to agree with the Tau player. The second I see a knight (loyal or chaos or otherwise) I say GG and move on. I'm not interested in wasting my time with a game that has essentially become P2W.

Seriously Pay to win you realise Mono Knights have a lower win percentage than Drukari, Aldari, Admech, Harlequins, but yeah clealry a pay to win list.
Soup is pay to win mono anything is always a weaker way to play 8th edition.


Yea, I'm always astounded by the people who just hate Knights lists, when they're a mid-tier army at best. Even soup lists, if it has 3-4 Knights in it, is generally a B+ to A- tier list, and will get trashed by most competitive GSC, Eldar, Ork, Tau, and non-Knight Imperium Soup lists.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





 Horst wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Sounds to me like there are no innocent players here, refusing to play someone's army seems kinda lame, on the other hand it sounds like your knight player is pretty classless as well


I dunno, I tend to agree with the Tau player. The second I see a knight (loyal or chaos or otherwise) I say GG and move on. I'm not interested in wasting my time with a game that has essentially become P2W.

Seriously Pay to win you realise Mono Knights have a lower win percentage than Drukari, Aldari, Admech, Harlequins, but yeah clealry a pay to win list.
Soup is pay to win mono anything is always a weaker way to play 8th edition.


Yea, I'm always astounded by the people who just hate Knights lists, when they're a mid-tier army at best. Even soup lists, if it has 3-4 Knights in it, is generally a B+ to A- tier list, and will get trashed by most competitive GSC, Eldar, Ork, Tau, and non-Knight Imperium Soup lists.
They're just not that fun to play against.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




When/if the Tau player starts netlisting and watching videos on how to play these Tau netlists, and then replicating the moves on the TT, he will be the guy no one wants to play. They will all welcome a game vs knights at this point

Tau don’t take much skill to play in casual circles (often with insufficient terrain and poor mission choices as others here have said)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 21:11:37


 
   
Made in nz
Deadly Dire Avenger




If you know he is bringing knights could you just not bring an anti-knight army?

I've found Knights are really only super effective in a tournament scene where you have to vs 5 or more armies so need a balanced army.

If you were just gonna go up against a knight army and you knew it you should be able to slaughter them.

A thing also of interest is how much terrain do you have? Is it an open field?

What missions are you playing? If it was kill points you'll be in trouble. If it was something like ITC suddenly 4 knights is a liability.



   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sounds like both players need to grow up.

If a player chooses to play a certain faction then the Tau player needs to accept and respect that. The Imperial player needs to learn that enjoying a game with others is not about winning but taking part.

Seriously, there are some people in the hobby who are unable to take part due to physical disability or are tormented by mental illness and live very lonely lives. They would be grateful just to enjoy the company of fellow gamers.

That all said, could the Imperial player just use one Knight and the rest Armigers and common guard units?

Casual gamer, casual fun! 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






It's not surprising that everyone has turned against the Knight player. Knights have been the greatest mistake 40k has ever done.

The only solutions are that he stops playing Knights or your group shift over to 150PL Apocalypse where Knights aren't as oppressive as in normal 40k.

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Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 skchsan wrote:
 Horst wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Sounds to me like there are no innocent players here, refusing to play someone's army seems kinda lame, on the other hand it sounds like your knight player is pretty classless as well


I dunno, I tend to agree with the Tau player. The second I see a knight (loyal or chaos or otherwise) I say GG and move on. I'm not interested in wasting my time with a game that has essentially become P2W.

Seriously Pay to win you realise Mono Knights have a lower win percentage than Drukari, Aldari, Admech, Harlequins, but yeah clealry a pay to win list.
Soup is pay to win mono anything is always a weaker way to play 8th edition.


Yea, I'm always astounded by the people who just hate Knights lists, when they're a mid-tier army at best. Even soup lists, if it has 3-4 Knights in it, is generally a B+ to A- tier list, and will get trashed by most competitive GSC, Eldar, Ork, Tau, and non-Knight Imperium Soup lists.
They're just not that fun to play against.


This. Even if you win the game with ease, it sucks, and I'd rather spend my time otherwise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/07 08:32:45


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Granted there is one mono knight army I love to play against.
Amiriger swarm of doom.

No seriously that is fun, even for a balanced list.
And with multiple types of amirigers also not shabby for the knight player.

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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Horst wrote:
Why would a Tau player refuse to play Knights?

His basic troop choice, a Fire Warrior, can be buffed up to gun those down with ease. Just use marker lights for +1 BS, and Focus Fire stratagem, and he's hitting Knights on a 3+, wounding on a 4+, with his basic troopers.

Tau is one of the armies that just dumpters Knights. Seems like he is being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

That is what I was thinking Tau rip though Knights. Use a Pulse Blaster and the FireWarrior is doing 2 shots hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+ with -2AP with basic troops.
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster






Pottsey wrote:
 Horst wrote:
Why would a Tau player refuse to play Knights?

His basic troop choice, a Fire Warrior, can be buffed up to gun those down with ease. Just use marker lights for +1 BS, and Focus Fire stratagem, and he's hitting Knights on a 3+, wounding on a 4+, with his basic troopers.

Tau is one of the armies that just dumpters Knights. Seems like he is being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

That is what I was thinking Tau rip though Knights. Use a Pulse Blaster and the FireWarrior is doing 2 shots hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+ with -2AP with basic troops.

Lol wut? Breachers are a bad meme unit. They only get that profile at less than 5 inches. Even terminators can close the gap to make a guaranteed charge.

Quite a few reasons for the Tau player to be salty if his list isn't optimized or ready for knights:
Focus Fire is Tau Sept locked so if they wanted to play any other Sept they lose access to the primary tool used against Knights. The primary weapon used against good invluns is the CIB which is only available in the Commander Kit as a single one. Commanders take 4 and Coldstars cannot take them so unless they magnetized for both enforcer and coldstar it is going to be difficult to tool against them. Riptides and Broadsides are the competitive answer to pretty much everything, but are expensive at $85 per Riptide and Broadsides are $55 each (you need/want 3 missile ones.) Good markerlight sources are expensive too since the Firesight Marksman is only available in the Sniper Drone kit or it has to be kitbashed. Crisis suits? 9 CIBs per unit of 3 and remember you get 1 per Commander box. All railguns are trash.

Communicating with your friends is still the better choice to find a more enjoyable way to play the game. Maybe teams? Khorne + Tau vs Knights + Guard.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Spoiler:
 DominayTrix wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
 Horst wrote:
Why would a Tau player refuse to play Knights?

His basic troop choice, a Fire Warrior, can be buffed up to gun those down with ease. Just use marker lights for +1 BS, and Focus Fire stratagem, and he's hitting Knights on a 3+, wounding on a 4+, with his basic troopers.

Tau is one of the armies that just dumpters Knights. Seems like he is being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

That is what I was thinking Tau rip though Knights. Use a Pulse Blaster and the FireWarrior is doing 2 shots hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+ with -2AP with basic troops.

Lol wut? Breachers are a bad meme unit. They only get that profile at less than 5 inches. Even terminators can close the gap to make a guaranteed charge.

Quite a few reasons for the Tau player to be salty if his list isn't optimized or ready for knights:
Focus Fire is Tau Sept locked so if they wanted to play any other Sept they lose access to the primary tool used against Knights. The primary weapon used against good invluns is the CIB which is only available in the Commander Kit as a single one. Commanders take 4 and Coldstars cannot take them so unless they magnetized for both enforcer and coldstar it is going to be difficult to tool against them. Riptides and Broadsides are the competitive answer to pretty much everything, but are expensive at $85 per Riptide and Broadsides are $55 each (you need/want 3 missile ones.) Good markerlight sources are expensive too since the Firesight Marksman is only available in the Sniper Drone kit or it has to be kitbashed. Crisis suits? 9 CIBs per unit of 3 and remember you get 1 per Commander box. All railguns are trash.

Communicating with your friends is still the better choice to find a more enjoyable way to play the game. Maybe teams? Khorne + Tau vs Knights + Guard.
No offense, but there's more to tau tactics than your 1d4chan 1-dimensional theorycrafting.

For one, if you're playing matched play, note all of the strats needed to keep knights alive can only be used once per turn, so it can only be used on one of them.

Start your QFB coldstar on board with 2 shield drones to protect it from oath breaker guidance, out of LOS, advance it into melta range to one of them, and either the knight player uses ion shield or he relies on his base invul - and it takes balls the size of watermelon to hold off on your ion shield against QFB coldstar in melta range. Once he procs both his main strat, the rest of his knights are pretty much toast as most tau weapons wound on 5+, and many on 4+. Invuls will only go so far. Even the "trashy" sa'cea railgun will knock down knights with quickness.

There are always more layers of tactics than your mathhammer.

Edit: knights dont even need to take invuls against CIB.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/09/07 16:01:42


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




True that is how people were killing GM NDKs when they could drop in their Inv to ++2, you had to buff one before shoting. So they would just kill the other one that was ++4. And after that they would just ignore the lone master, and either go after a draigo, or go kill the rest of the army.
   
 
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