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Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Create a character with lots of options will always be near impossible to balance correctly.

We have smash captains now, we used to have bike captains in the past, etc
Certain war-gear combinations will be more beneficial and thus abused depending in large part to the general core rules of the game.

I want to see more unique characters for each faction/sub faction and less create-a-hero with lots of options - they just get abused anyways.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/04 15:01:48


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





IMO, matched play should forego all named characters and replace them with customizable 0-1 characters of similar caliber.

One thing that really bugs me is how certain WL traits and relics are tied to the named characters, forcing you to take another generic (if available) HQ just in order to take the trait you want.
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Why on earth should anyone forego named heroes?

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

 Ishagu wrote:
Why on earth should anyone forego named heroes?
Several reasons.

It might stretch suspension of disbelief. Why is Bobby G. showing up in every random conflict, or Abaddon?
It might be a desire to play your army, rather than GW's army.
Could be other reasons that I haven't thought of as well.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

The warp did it. There's your reason.

You are free to play your as you see fit.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

 Ishagu wrote:
The warp did it. There's your reason.

You are free to play your as you see fit.
Do you not see how that would not be satisfying for some players?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Are you telling me that every single game you play need to be justified in the lore?

You realise most faction literally cannot even fight the Tau?

Seeing Abaddon too much? It's a VR exercise against the Warmaster.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Ishagu wrote:
Create a character with lots of options will always be near impossible to balance correctly.


That doesn't excuse not even making an effort to balance artefacts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/04 15:21:34


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Ishagu wrote:
The warp did it. There's your reason.

You are free to play your as you see fit.


Seeing as I explicitly do not want to use any special characters, this advice is aggressively unhelpful.

Besides, I fail to see how making, say, Longstrike into a generic tank commander would be a balance issue. All the customization comes from relics and warlord traits, which is exactly what we have now.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





 Ishagu wrote:
Are you telling me that every single game you play need to be justified in the lore?

You realise most faction literally cannot even fight the Tau?

Seeing Abaddon too much? It's a VR exercise against the Warmaster.
Your comments would be much better received if you weren't so obnoxious in all of your posts.

The way I see it, matched play is similar to multiplayer mode in RTS - where you receive generic 'named' heroes (ex. Warcraft III) where as narrative/open is like campaign mode/UMS.

Currently, we see a lot of "well actually, my army is [sons of ultramar], but in order to include guilliman and have him affect my units, my army needs to have [ULTRAMARINE] keyword. So my army is [Sons of Ultramar] that counts as a [ULTRAMARINE] army. So it's actually a [ULTRAMARINE] army but I call it different name."
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 JNAProductions wrote:
To elaborate, what I mean is should someone like Calgar be mechanically unique?


Yes.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

 Dysartes wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
To elaborate, what I mean is should someone like Calgar be mechanically unique?


Yes.
A lot of people have said that they don't mind unique characters that have a nice sword or something similar. Do you think unique rules in their entirety, especially rules that affect other models, should be wholly unique?

Because, while I'd like you to be able to build every character with generic options (barring obvious exceptions like Bobby G) a character who has a unique hammer ain't a big deal, or a Duelist rule (that gives them extra hits on 6s or whatever) ain't a huge deal either.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 skchsan wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
Are you telling me that every single game you play need to be justified in the lore?

You realise most faction literally cannot even fight the Tau?

Seeing Abaddon too much? It's a VR exercise against the Warmaster.
Your comments would be much better received if you weren't so obnoxious in all of your posts.

The way I see it, matched play is similar to multiplayer mode in RTS - where you receive generic 'named' heroes (ex. Warcraft III) where as narrative/open is like campaign mode/UMS.

Currently, we see a lot of "well actually, my army is [sons of ultramar], but in order to include guilliman and have him affect my units, my army needs to have [ULTRAMARINE] keyword. So my army is [Sons of Ultramar] that counts as a [ULTRAMARINE] army. So it's actually a [ULTRAMARINE] army but I call it different name."

Marines sometimes paint their armor different. Bam there you go.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





One thing to think about is certain armies have specific HQ to HQ interactions like Necrons.

This "Generical Rubicon" process will need to be done carefully as to not cause potential abuse with mix and matching CT + Chapter specific character rule interactions.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant




Tampa, FL

I think there should be enough options to "build" a character, with special characters either being a set-in-stone combination or being actually special. Honestly, I miss the days when special characters required your opponent's permission to use. It kept them actually special.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Dysartes wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
To elaborate, what I mean is should someone like Calgar be mechanically unique?


Yes.


Out of interest, which aspects of Calgar would you say need to be kept unique?

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Wayniac wrote:
I think there should be enough options to "build" a character, with special characters either being a set-in-stone combination or being actually special. Honestly, I miss the days when special characters required your opponent's permission to use. It kept them actually special.

It was stupid, not special. If someone REALLY wanted to pay 185(!) points to use Coteaz, you had no reason not to let them.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince





West Lafayette, IN

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Longstrike represents a bit of an issue yeah, space marines have the same issue with Chronus, I'd honestly love to see him be replaced with a generic tank commander. (and I say this as a UM fan)

I'm still trying to work out why Chronus is one of the smurfs not an Iron Hand honestly.


Because in the codex he was introduced in, Mat Ward assured us that there are three types of Space Marines: Ultramarines, those that wish they were Ultramarines, and those that are genetic deviants that should be disregarded in that tome. The ones in the second type include founding legions that aren't deviants. THAT is why. Because Ward's sun rises and sets around the Ultramarines, and nobody saw fit to correct that issue.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Just Tony wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Longstrike represents a bit of an issue yeah, space marines have the same issue with Chronus, I'd honestly love to see him be replaced with a generic tank commander. (and I say this as a UM fan)

I'm still trying to work out why Chronus is one of the smurfs not an Iron Hand honestly.


Because in the codex he was introduced in, Mat Ward assured us that there are three types of Space Marines: Ultramarines, those that wish they were Ultramarines, and those that are genetic deviants that should be disregarded in that tome. The ones in the second type include founding legions that aren't deviants. THAT is why. Because Ward's sun rises and sets around the Ultramarines, and nobody saw fit to correct that issue.

How about you tell us the non 1d4chan version where you actually read the fluff of the codex!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Just Tony wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Longstrike represents a bit of an issue yeah, space marines have the same issue with Chronus, I'd honestly love to see him be replaced with a generic tank commander. (and I say this as a UM fan)

I'm still trying to work out why Chronus is one of the smurfs not an Iron Hand honestly.


Because in the codex he was introduced in, Mat Ward assured us that there are three types of Space Marines: Ultramarines, those that wish they were Ultramarines, and those that are genetic deviants that should be disregarded in that tome. The ones in the second type include founding legions that aren't deviants. THAT is why. Because Ward's sun rises and sets around the Ultramarines, and nobody saw fit to correct that issue.


Did GW not make the models first back in 5E?

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Iowa

If we were to get custom characters in matched play, how would you like to see it implemented?

I personally like the idea of using the CA18 guide for overall character making. However, in matched play, I’d like to see custom characters restricted to only being “Hero” status, meaning they can only pick four improvements, whereas “Mighty Heroes” can take six, and “Legendary Heroes” can take eight. It’s similar to how in Killteam that for matched play, you can only take level 1 specialists.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/05 06:22:51


If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 JNAProductions wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
Why on earth should anyone forego named heroes?
Several reasons.

It might stretch suspension of disbelief. Why is Bobby G. showing up in every random conflict, or Abaddon?
It might be a desire to play your army, rather than GW's army.
Could be other reasons that I haven't thought of as well.


Look, either you are aiming for a fluff-justified game, then you should be fine with just not using the most optimal leader for your army. If you feel like your conflict doesn't warrant Abaddon's attention, just use a Terminator Lord - GW even provided you with a stratagem to make him a chosen of the warmaster. Of course, there should be at least one unit that fits your army (though few armies outside of DE have troubles with this). Your immersion won't suffer from using a talonmaster instead of Sammael, a Chapter Master and sergeant instead of Gulliman or a regular Predator with a fancy paintjob and a marine looking out of it instead of Chronus. The only thing that suffers from this is your win-loss record.

Of course, if you want the best possible army, you need to pick the best HQ for them. If that happens to be a named character, then so be it.

You can't both have an optimized list and follow arbitrary restrictions that have been gone from the game for over a decade. Named characters are part of the game just like any other unit.

The only valid complaint is that named characters shouldn't be must-take options. But that is true for every single non-named unit for the game as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/05 09:18:43


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





It's worth noting that when a character is genuinely unique and isn't just a more powerful version of X. people tend to immediatly dismiss it as bad, never take it etc. Exhibit A, Castellan Crowe. he's a unique character with an intreasting story, one that actually makes him NERFED. don't often hear about him being used.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince





West Lafayette, IN

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Longstrike represents a bit of an issue yeah, space marines have the same issue with Chronus, I'd honestly love to see him be replaced with a generic tank commander. (and I say this as a UM fan)

I'm still trying to work out why Chronus is one of the smurfs not an Iron Hand honestly.


Because in the codex he was introduced in, Mat Ward assured us that there are three types of Space Marines: Ultramarines, those that wish they were Ultramarines, and those that are genetic deviants that should be disregarded in that tome. The ones in the second type include founding legions that aren't deviants. THAT is why. Because Ward's sun rises and sets around the Ultramarines, and nobody saw fit to correct that issue.

How about you tell us the non 1d4chan version where you actually read the fluff of the codex!


You mean the 5th Ed. Codex I had to own to play my Fists with Kantor? Still have it, in fact. Nice dismissal with no attempt to dispute what I said, though.

BrianDavion wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Longstrike represents a bit of an issue yeah, space marines have the same issue with Chronus, I'd honestly love to see him be replaced with a generic tank commander. (and I say this as a UM fan)

I'm still trying to work out why Chronus is one of the smurfs not an Iron Hand honestly.


Because in the codex he was introduced in, Mat Ward assured us that there are three types of Space Marines: Ultramarines, those that wish they were Ultramarines, and those that are genetic deviants that should be disregarded in that tome. The ones in the second type include founding legions that aren't deviants. THAT is why. Because Ward's sun rises and sets around the Ultramarines, and nobody saw fit to correct that issue.


Did GW not make the models first back in 5E?


Model and rules in 5th Ed., which is when the Codex I quoted was released.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in dk
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






BrianDavion wrote:
It's worth noting that when a character is genuinely unique and isn't just a more powerful version of X. people tend to immediatly dismiss it as bad, never take it etc. Exhibit A, Castellan Crowe. he's a unique character with an intreasting story, one that actually makes him NERFED. don't often hear about him being used.

You are going to need more exhibits than one. Yvraine, Deceiver and Harker are all very unique, the Deceiver is prominently featured in many gimmick lists and a lot of fun to use and not really overpriced, Yvraine has topped many tournaments and Harker has as well If I am not mistaken.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Apple Peel wrote:
If we were to get custom characters in matched play, how would you like to see it implemented?

I personally like the idea of using the CA18 guide for overall character making. However, in matched play, I’d like to see custom characters restricted to only being “Hero” status, meaning they can only pick four improvements


The issue with the the customisation options in CA2018 is that there is no attempt to balance the options either against one another or for the individual characters.

For example, a once-per-game chance to do d3 mortal wounds to a non-character unit on a roll of 5+ is costed exactly the same as a 'reroll 1s when shooting' aura. Hell, a trait that improves the damage of a single weapon is costed exactly the same as a trait that improves the damage of *every* ranged weapon.

What's more, there's no consideration about how effective these traits are for different armies. e.g. 'Add 1 to the damage characteristic of all ranged weapons' is going to be a hell of a lot better on a Tau commander with 4 plasma rifles than on an Imperial Guard Commander with a Bolter.


Ideally, I would want to - at the very least - cost these improvements differently for each army (maybe remove some of the more redundant/niche options to make this less overwhelming), taking into account how strong the traits are likely to be for characters in that army. And then rather than saying 'pick 4 options', I'd instead have 'pick 50pts of options' or ''pick 100pts of options'.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Just Tony wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Longstrike represents a bit of an issue yeah, space marines have the same issue with Chronus, I'd honestly love to see him be replaced with a generic tank commander. (and I say this as a UM fan)

I'm still trying to work out why Chronus is one of the smurfs not an Iron Hand honestly.


Because in the codex he was introduced in, Mat Ward assured us that there are three types of Space Marines: Ultramarines, those that wish they were Ultramarines, and those that are genetic deviants that should be disregarded in that tome. The ones in the second type include founding legions that aren't deviants. THAT is why. Because Ward's sun rises and sets around the Ultramarines, and nobody saw fit to correct that issue.

How about you tell us the non 1d4chan version where you actually read the fluff of the codex!


You mean the 5th Ed. Codex I had to own to play my Fists with Kantor? Still have it, in fact. Nice dismissal with no attempt to dispute what I said, though.

BrianDavion wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Longstrike represents a bit of an issue yeah, space marines have the same issue with Chronus, I'd honestly love to see him be replaced with a generic tank commander. (and I say this as a UM fan)

I'm still trying to work out why Chronus is one of the smurfs not an Iron Hand honestly.


Because in the codex he was introduced in, Mat Ward assured us that there are three types of Space Marines: Ultramarines, those that wish they were Ultramarines, and those that are genetic deviants that should be disregarded in that tome. The ones in the second type include founding legions that aren't deviants. THAT is why. Because Ward's sun rises and sets around the Ultramarines, and nobody saw fit to correct that issue.


Did GW not make the models first back in 5E?


Model and rules in 5th Ed., which is when the Codex I quoted was released.

You just posted 1d4chan wankery like most people regarding the 5th edition codex.
Asking for the non wankery version IS disputing what you said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
It's worth noting that when a character is genuinely unique and isn't just a more powerful version of X. people tend to immediatly dismiss it as bad, never take it etc. Exhibit A, Castellan Crowe. he's a unique character with an intreasting story, one that actually makes him NERFED. don't often hear about him being used.

That's because his story is actually REALLY stupid (I'm gonna take the stupid dangerous sword into the middle of battle but I'm not gonna REALLY use it) AND his rules are bad. He needs a complete overhaul.

Hell they made him cheaper than the actual Brotherhood Champ and he's still not really worth considering. That says a LOT about what role he fills (none).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vipoid wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
If we were to get custom characters in matched play, how would you like to see it implemented?

I personally like the idea of using the CA18 guide for overall character making. However, in matched play, I’d like to see custom characters restricted to only being “Hero” status, meaning they can only pick four improvements


The issue with the the customisation options in CA2018 is that there is no attempt to balance the options either against one another or for the individual characters.

For example, a once-per-game chance to do d3 mortal wounds to a non-character unit on a roll of 5+ is costed exactly the same as a 'reroll 1s when shooting' aura. Hell, a trait that improves the damage of a single weapon is costed exactly the same as a trait that improves the damage of *every* ranged weapon.

What's more, there's no consideration about how effective these traits are for different armies. e.g. 'Add 1 to the damage characteristic of all ranged weapons' is going to be a hell of a lot better on a Tau commander with 4 plasma rifles than on an Imperial Guard Commander with a Bolter.


Ideally, I would want to - at the very least - cost these improvements differently for each army (maybe remove some of the more redundant/niche options to make this less overwhelming), taking into account how strong the traits are likely to be for characters in that army. And then rather than saying 'pick 4 options', I'd instead have 'pick 50pts of options' or ''pick 100pts of options'.

Yeah there's potential for the custom traits assuming you price frem correctly. When I heard about it I was excited until I saw the options not balanced against each other and I'm PRETTY sure GW said it is fun to roll randomly for them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/05 14:28:04


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I like the idea of a hero-maker, where perhaps the shiny gubbinz (or boring-named equivalent) would include a variety of special abilities as well as weapons & armour. You could pay 1CP to make a character a Hero, or 3CP to make one a Legend. Heroes get 3 items from the shiny gubbinz section, and Legends get 5. Otherwise it's the standard 1 item per army.

Some items would be specific to specific characters, EG the Super shokk attack gun would be Big-Mek specific.

I would have Mega-armour move to the shiny gubbinz (deffkilla and jump-boss can't take it). Warbike would definitely go back in there. and then a variety of abilities, like "the biggest waaaagh" and all the warlord-traits. Want a dude who is standard but has 3 warlord traits? go for it. Want a Megaboss with Ghazzies abilities? go for it.

This would let the named characters remain (essentially pre-made special characters with the odd stat or ability more than the standard) but it would also open the door for the old school build-a-boss we used to have, but for a single, suitably awesome model.

Orks in 8th, W/D/L
2/0/1 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

You can literally do these things in fun narrative games but they have no place in matched play.

Nothing stopping any of you from playing narrative to your heart's content!

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

 Ishagu wrote:
You can literally do these things in fun narrative games but they have no place in matched play.

Nothing stopping any of you from playing narrative to your heart's content!
GW charges hundreds of dollars for rules.

I don’t think asking for a balanced but customizable experience is too much.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
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