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drbored wrote: Raven Guard's shtick is that they pick apart the enemy army. Their rules fit that perfectly, which is great.
They also have one of the weakest base chapter tactics, since it can be either ignored or worked around just by getting closer to them. Salamanders and Iron Hands chapter traits are always active all the time, but Raven Guard is contingent on placement of models. Once they're within 12" or outside of cover, they might as well not have a chapter tactic and they'll die just like any other marine.
Yeah, if you play an army that's heavily reliant upon characters, Raven Guard are going to be a pain to deal with, but remember that their marines die like any other marines, so just do what you would normally do against marines and you'll probably be fine.
Getting within 12 inches turn 1 when everything even cehicals can be in cover for CP is going to be a challenge.
The ammount of MW output is borderline spammy, but as you say it's a slightly less fun to play against list as so many codex's have been designed for aura hammer and this destroys that playstyle. But outside of a few matchups they will play a fluffy style but in all honesty I doubt it's going to be as much of a bully list as Iron Hands.
It's got some really good potential but I suspect that the skill floor to make it competitive will be a little high for most people.
Vehicals without charictor keyword are quite brutal against this list and ignoring cover entirely removes thier chapter tactic ie Imperial fists, flayed skull lists hard counter them kinda hard.
drbored wrote: Raven Guard's shtick is that they pick apart the enemy army. Their rules fit that perfectly, which is great.
They also have one of the weakest base chapter tactics, since it can be either ignored or worked around just by getting closer to them. Salamanders and Iron Hands chapter traits are always active all the time, but Raven Guard is contingent on placement of models. Once they're within 12" or outside of cover, they might as well not have a chapter tactic and they'll die just like any other marine.
Yeah, if you play an army that's heavily reliant upon characters, Raven Guard are going to be a pain to deal with, but remember that their marines die like any other marines, so just do what you would normally do against marines and you'll probably be fine.
Getting within 12 inches turn 1 when everything even cehicals can be in cover for CP is going to be a challenge.
The ammount of MW output is borderline spammy, but as you say it's a slightly less fun to play against list as so many codex's have been designed for aura hammer and this destroys that playstyle. But outside of a few matchups they will play a fluffy style but in all honesty I doubt it's going to be as much of a bully list as Iron Hands.
It's got some really good potential but I suspect that the skill floor to make it competitive will be a little high for most people.
Vehicals without charictor keyword are quite brutal against this list and ignoring cover entirely removes thier chapter tactic ie Imperial fists, flayed skull lists hard counter them kinda hard.
Correction, many codexs can't do anything but Aura hammer and or herobash.
Which makes RG quite insulting to these, especially because some are shoehorned into that playstyle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/16 08:42:14
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
For DA and BA players sake, I hope that RG won't be popular in the areas where they play. RG turn them in to space marines without doctrins.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: For DA and BA players sake, I hope that RG won't be popular in the areas where they play. RG turn them in to space marines without doctrins.
Bit of an exaggeration, BAs and DAs have some unique units and stratigiums. they're ahrdly defined by a handful of special chars.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Iron Hands = Easy Mode, Very Simple to play.
-List is a dreadnought spam list with Iron Broken Father!
-Might see the rise of a flyer spam list.
Raven Guard = Hard Mode, many deployment and movement abilities to catch the opponent off guard. The Anti-Character part should be viewed as a side skill, not the focus. They also are Space Marine Genestealers...with their deployment "movement phase." strat.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/16 12:09:19
Karol wrote: For DA and BA players sake, I hope that RG won't be popular in the areas where they play. RG turn them in to space marines without doctrins.
Bit of an exaggeration, BAs and DAs have some unique units and stratigiums. they're ahrdly defined by a handful of special chars.
What do BAs have, that they actually use, besides mefiston and smash captins? Same with DA, they are based around stuff like azrael and the ravenwing dude. If those are too easy or easy to kill by RG lists, then a DA/BA army is a stricktly worse space marine army, because they don't have doctrins or the new stratagems.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: For DA and BA players sake, I hope that RG won't be popular in the areas where they play. RG turn them in to space marines without doctrins.
Bit of an exaggeration, BAs and DAs have some unique units and stratigiums. they're ahrdly defined by a handful of special chars.
What do BAs have, that they actually use, besides mefiston and smash captins? Same with DA, they are based around stuff like azrael and the ravenwing dude. If those are too easy or easy to kill by RG lists, then a DA/BA army is a stricktly worse space marine army, because they don't have doctrins or the new stratagems.
This isn't yet another thread for "blood angels are terrible!".
Correction, many codexs can't do anything but Aura hammer and or herobash.
Which makes RG quite insulting to these, especially because some are shoehorned into that playstyle.
Eh..."insulting" isn't the word I'd use. Especially as quite a few of those armies(GSC, Guard, Tyranids) also have units/rules which are purposebuilt to allow for your characters to get a 'bodyguard'.
It's about time we saw some real counterplay to that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/16 12:42:16
What do BAs have, that they actually use, besides mefiston and smash captins? Same with DA, they are based around stuff like azrael and the ravenwing dude. If those are too easy or easy to kill by RG lists, then a DA/BA army is a stricktly worse space marine army, because they don't have doctrins or the new stratagems.
Non-codex marines getting screwed over by being in codex limbo isnt the fault of the Raven Guard.
Correction, many codexs can't do anything but Aura hammer and or herobash.
Which makes RG quite insulting to these, especially because some are shoehorned into that playstyle.
Eh..."insulting" isn't the word I'd use. Especially as quite a few of those armies(GSC, Guard, Tyranids) also have units/rules which are purposebuilt to allow for your characters to get a 'bodyguard'.
It's about time we saw some real counterplay to that.
okey, but you can't do any counter play, when GW didn't give you an option to do it. A BA player can't just say, they are going to take cheap units with bodyguard rule or don't focus on HQ use a lot. OR to be super precise they can try to, but they will be left with an army that is a weaker version of a normal space marine army.
My dudes when GW made them, were suppose to focus on turn one deep strike. In a way BA had that too, only better, lucky enough their stuff was good enough to still give them a valid unit choice after the deep strike change. Other armies have no such options. What is a necron player suppose to do, if his army is based around aura characters and a RG can just easily kill them, I mean besides buying a different army of course?
What do BAs have, that they actually use, besides mefiston and smash captins? Same with DA, they are based around stuff like azrael and the ravenwing dude. If those are too easy or easy to kill by RG lists, then a DA/BA army is a stricktly worse space marine army, because they don't have doctrins or the new stratagems.
Non-codex marines getting screwed over by being in codex limbo isnt the fault of the Raven Guard.
Of course, but this wasn't the argument I made. the designers that wrote the RG rules should know how big an impact such an army is and how unfun to play against making people be unable to us their stuff is. It is one thing to play and get outplayed, or even lose on dice. It is another thing to be told by the rules, the way you want to play the game is not valid, buy a new army or stop playing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/16 12:49:39
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Of course, but this wasn't the argument I made. the designers that wrote the RG rules should know how big an impact such an army is and how unfun to play against making people be unable to us their stuff is. It is one thing to play and get outplayed, or even lose on dice. It is another thing to be told by the rules, the way you want to play the game is not valid, buy a new army or stop playing.
Yeah, thats not what the rules are saying. The rules are saying that if you want to rely on characters in your army, its probably a good idea to stop leaning on the crutch of character protection if you desperately want to keep those characters alive.
Every codex has means to protect their characters. Now there's an incentive to use them.
As an add on, I really haven't looked at the Vanguard Warlord traits, but oh boy, there a re a few in there that would gel well with a good RG list. I would pay the CP to have a second warlord trait obviously as they have a few cool ones in their codex too.
The shenanigans in deployment will be fun if you take Lord of Deceit, or maybe even just adding Marksman's Honours onto your Phobos Captain (damage 4 sniper).
I think this army is really calling to me (although the idea of painting more black after doing Ravenwing and Deathwatch is a little daunting), mainly because I love the idea of commandos and didn't really think the Vanguard dudes I got in Shadowspear really worked well with my Dark Angels.
basicly a raven guard with a iron paint scheme. nice and simple, a shame there's no lead beltcher spray anymore :(
hmm, not too bad. I may have to look at what armies I currently have and see what colour is blatantly missing..
Dark Angels...Black Ravenwing, Green, bone Deathwing
Deathwatch...Black
Iron Warriors...metal
Iyanden..yellow (never again)
Praetorians...red/blue
Harlequins...green/blue
Knights...Black, red, yellow (I swore never again...damnit)
Good God, I just realized I have Ulthwe and Black Legion sitting in reserve too. More Black.
I have a lot of black armies, lol. At least they are somewhat forgiving.
I really wanted to do a Samurai themed army, but the Salamanders sneak rules aren't doing it for me. I could go red/crimson for most of the army and stay black for the vanguard/Phobs dudes (ninjas)
Jeez, I just realized I also have the Corvus Cabal sitting on my desk unpainted.
I guess it was inevitable, I love my Ravenwing (probably favourite army), grabbed the Corvus Cabal, and now leaning toward Ravenguard for my Vanguard marines.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/17 05:13:36
As a Necron player eyeing the shelves for a 2nd Army I'm really into the Ravenguard codex. It feels very fluffy with a lot of neat tricks like boobytrapping objectives, forcing enemies to discard tactical objectives and all the deployment and assassination shenanigans.
The ability to stack negative to hit modifers quite easily, as well as stack +1 to wound modifiers against characters makes them seem especially strong.
I'm wondering though what a 2000 list looks like. From my limited research it looks like Incursors and Infiltrators aren't actually released yet.
