Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Meh was my take away. I think the first WW movie was better.

It felt like they took a first draft of a script with Max Lord and a first draft of a script with Cheetah and then plucked Cheetah out of the latter, put her in the former and then called it a day. There were some good ideas but it needed to be refined a bit more. It should not have been a two and a half hour movie.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
80’s camp? Man, I can’t wait to see this.

You'll be disappointed as it is not very 'camp'. It flirts with it in some parts but never seems to fully commit to the idea.

Apparently the third film has not only been green lit, but fast tracked, in light of the initial performance of 84, so I guess it's been good enough to hit whatever KPI the corporate part of Warner Bros had set fairly handily.

But then, what are a bunch of people going to do over a socially restricted festive period?

Just got done....was glad I didn't pay for it in a theater. Pretty bad overall, and I enjoyed the first one. Knock this one up as another crappy DC movie (there are so many).

My wife and I saw it on Xmas day.

We watched the first WW in Xmas-eve and that was a mistake. WW84 just doesn't compare to the first WW.

I think the weakest link was the story itself. Every actors acted their asses off, and while the plot was fine it seemed a bit disjointed?

We did have a laugh at the story that Steve "borrowed" some dude's body and slept with WW... poor dude obviously didn't consent to have his body taken over. (I think the issue was that he didn't get to enjoy that encounter Assuming he's straight of course).

It may have actually been the worst DC movie...well, JL and Suicide Squad exist...but WW84 wasn't just dumb it, it was pretentious and obnoxious. And when all it takes is one emo kid wishing that everyone was dead to ruin the movie...well, you've written a bad movie.

Don't forget Green Lantern.

A movie that exists only so that Ryan Reynolds can take the piss out of it every chance he gets.

Angry Joe Wonder Woman 1984 Review:
https://youtu.be/oiaUF1vKUpc

Hmm, it sounds that WW 1984 turned out to be one of the most atrocious DC movies ever made. Thank you Corona, you saved me from a cinema visit filled with nothing but disappointment.

I wouldn't say that. Everything Snyder has touched is for sure worse. This one is just.... unfocused. There are good bones in this movie. The acting is all good. It's just SO long while trying to do SO much and it just ends up as a jumble. I am sure someone could cut 40 minutes off the movie and reedit it into something more punchy and a better more enjoyable ride.

Where as the REALLY bad DC movies (Snyders) are bad acting (not the fault of the actors. it's the writing and direction), mischaracterization, bad plots with people doing things for no or insane reasons. Just... the worst.

Gonna be honest. I thought the first Wonder Woman was overrated tripe that was passable and only looked good because everything that came before it was so so very bad. I think I actively resented the movie a bit, because it was getting so much praise that I found completely unearned. I decided to give this one a chance because I had nothing better to do and a little longer on my HBO Max trial.

I think I kind of tuned out around the beginning, when she used her tiara to destroy the security cameras as... VHS existed in 1984 and there weren't upwards of a hundred witnesses to the event. What exactly is she trying to keep secret and how does this even remotely qualify as keeping it secret? That's just so... I mean at that point I wasn't even willing to be generous and noticed how awful the entire scene was to watch. It was just lazy and dull.

I just shook my head, gave it another thirty minutes to see if it could reel me back in (it didn't) and then I started looking for a better movie. Overall opinion seems to be that the film is a disappointment after the first but as already stated I found the first unimpressive so yeah.

30 minutes in I had no idea what the movie was even about. Wonder Woman was just on screen doing... stuff. I know the comparison is old and probably tired, but most MCU movies (and really, any good movie) have at least established a primary villain and conflict arc in the first thirty minutes of the movie, even if the hero hasn't started acting on it yet. The movie did eventually start doing that with some dull foreshadowing but by then I was just completely uninvested and didn't care anymore.

This movie is like a 90s kid's idea of the 80s too. Stranger danger in a park, no internet so someone can leave hundreds of witnesses and still be a mystery, and a ponzi scheme. I mean, I guess those are all things someone who isn't from the 80s might identify as '80s' things but I can't help but feel like this movie was a shallow effort at a very vogue motif made by people who didn't really know how to assemble it and it's also just a boring movie on top of that.

There's some oldie Godzilla movies on MAX you know. They're all a lot funner than this movie XD

 LordofHats wrote:
Gonna be honest. I thought the first Wonder Woman was overrated tripe that was passable and only looked good because everything that came before it was so so very bad.

Yeah, I'm right there with you man. That first Wonder Woman film is a 7/10 at best. I'll eventually get around to '84, I'm not exactly dying to see it with the current buzz being what it is.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Gonna be honest. I thought the first Wonder Woman was overrated tripe that was passable and only looked good because everything that came before it was so so very bad.

Yeah, I'm right there with you man. That first Wonder Woman film is a 7/10 at best. I'll eventually get around to '84, I'm not exactly dying to see it with the current buzz being what it is.

Being more honest, I felt like maybe I wasn't being fair after posting, went back, tried to watch the movie again and quit about another 20 minutes in because it doesn't get better and I just don't have patience for this mess of a movie that even an hour in is still struggling to find a plot.

EDIT: And I've realized what this movie reminds me of.

Every Michael Bay Transformers film after the first one. Time and distance are impossible concepts because the story doesn't care. Things happen for no reason to keep the plot going but the plot isn't really going anywhere. The action scenes suck and rely on an overuse of some gimmick (slow mo in this case). The movie seems to just assume that "people want to see Optimus Prime' but Optimus Prime doesn't really do anything but run around as someone else does interesting things. If this movie were a movie about one man destroying his life by having too much of a good thing, it would probably be pretty entertaining. As it is, the entertaining thing is happening over there while Wonder Woman just sort of exists doing things of questionable morality.

The best summary of that suspect morality I've seen was that it feels like a left over from an earlier draft where the macguffin coorupts your wish, so she gets him back but not really.

When the version of the macguffin we got just gives you what you want but takes something else instead, not only is it morally suspect it makes no sense and offers no good explanation.

 Azreal13 wrote:
The best summary of that suspect morality I've seen was that it feels like a left over from an earlier draft where the macguffin coorupts your wish, so she gets him back but not really.

When the version of the macguffin we got just gives you what you want but takes something else instead, not only is it morally suspect it makes no sense and offers no good explanation.

Yeah. On a whim I went to see if there was Pitch Meeting video for this movie, and I enjoyed this 8:00 video (full of spoilers) a thousand times more than the movie, have added the movie to my list of superhero movies with disturbingly fethed up moral 'lessons'* and feel that I was too generous in watching as much of the movie as I did XD

*If the movie actually ends as described, all I can say is wow. I thought The Incredible 1 & 2 managed to have incredibly fethed up lessons if you sat and thought about them, but this movie is easily 10x worse, especially because I can't figure how they connect the "nothing good comes of lies" bit at the beginning of the film to "how dare you want more than you have accept the truth that your life sucks and be happy with it" cause that's just... wow... Was this movie trying and failing to make some kind of contemporary political commentary via the naked capitalist idealism of the 80s? Cause it didn't even come close to sticking the landing. Actually, from what I saw of the film (about half) it never even managed to make the jump.

I think trying to distill a message out of this movie is like trying to take your cream and sugar back out of your coffee.

There's undoubtedly something being said, but it's so hopelessly muddled, perhaps because of that whole overlapping drafts issue, I think it's pointless trying to dwell too long on what.

The message is effectively, 'A Beautiful Lie is still a lie, that will ultimately harm you and everyone you care for.' Highlighted by using Zimmers piece of music called... A Beautiful Lie.

Ultimately you need to acknowledge, accept and work through the pain, harm and loss to find Truth and grow as a person.

Ultimately, it's a classic Wonder Woman theme, where the final confrontation was just classic Wonder Woman, with strong allusions to Gail Simones run.



I'm definitely looking forward to upcoming films, there's lots still to be explored, like perhaps Maxwell Lords son becoming THE Maxwell Lord we know from the comics, EG founding Checkmate, gaining a lesser versions of Max's powers and, perhaps, it's him forcing Wondie to kill him that makes her so reclusive and reluctant in reluctant by BvS.

And, I can see so much potential for Barbara too, with her ultimately resenting her loss of power as the Cheetah, causing her to go on a quest and ultimately encounter Urzkartaga and becoming The Cheetah once more.

In saying all that, the film certainly wasn't perfect, nor better than the first (or even Wonder Woman Bloodlines). It definitely DID run overlong, and a lot of Max Lords rise to power could have just been handled by a montage sequence of him shaking hands, rather than the whole Presidential subplot.

They could also have been WAY clearly about the state of the world at the end and how much had been reset buttoned.

 Compel wrote:
The message is effectively, 'A Beautiful Lie is still a lie, that will ultimately harm you and everyone you care for.' Highlighted by using Zimmers piece of music called... A Beautiful Lie.

Ultimately you need to acknowledge, accept and work through the pain, harm and loss to find Truth and grow as a person.

I wonder how many people wished for someone they love not to be injured, dying, lost, abused, etc.
Gosh, what lies they told. Sorry kids, Wonder Woman says you've got to go lock yourselves back in the basement, because not being there is a lie.
Ok, moms and dads, wish little Timmy's cancer back.


This whole film has disgustingly little thought put into it, beyond a 'cheetah's never prosper' meme.

I'm not entirely convinced that an artifact from the 'Duke of Deception' would be capable of a truly altruistic wish like that (There's suggestions of it exerting a similar influence ala 'The One Ring'). They make direct mentions of the wish being a monkeys paw. - It's a case of 'cure from cancer, oh look, Little Timmy's just been run over.'

Plus, there's the whole escalation at the end of, 'the whole world is about to be destroyed in nuclear fire'.

However, admittedly, this is part of the various things that could have been done better in the film as a result of a tighter editing and reviewing process.

 Compel wrote:
I'm not entirely convinced that an artifact from the 'Duke of Deception' would be capable of a truly altruistic wish like that. They make direct mentions of the wish being a monkeys paw. - It's a case of 'cure from cancer, oh look, Little Timmy's just been run over.'

Plus, there's the whole escalation at the end of, 'the whole world is about to be destroyed in nuclear fire'.

Eh. It runs square into the human nature problem. Statistically, someone is going to roll the dice on that last one, if not multiple someones if the wishes are big enough.

As to the former, as 'Duke of Deception,' I doubt all the 'prices' are going to be that blatant. And again, human nature. Some are going to be willing to accept the cost (in both positive and negative ways). We live in a world where abusive and even murderous parents are a thing. Someone's going to simply shrug if Little Timmy is their price. Others aren't going to care what happens to them if Little Timmy gets to walk again.

The idea that she can just talk everyone into recanting their wishes is absurd. I'm cynical enough to wonder if even a majority would, especially given the less connected nature of the 80s, where plenty of people wouldn't know or believe about the nukes.

However, admittedly, this is part of the various things that could have been done better in the film as a result of a tighter editing and reviewing process.

Truthfully, what would have been better is just not having this plot. Its really terrible and fails at the first pass.
And that doesn't even touch all the unfortunate implications with Steve.

So, how does the poor reception of this movie impact the following:

1. Careers of the actors/leads?
2. Career of the director?
3. The DC Universe of movies and how they evolve or continue?

Thought and wild speculation please....

Well, given they fast tracked a sequel with all of that intact.... not much.

 Easy E wrote:
So, how does the poor reception of this movie impact the following:

1. Careers of the actors/leads?
2. Career of the director?

Potentially not much, since they're already gone with a sequel.
It also depends on how they evaluate the earnings with the current situation- 'grade on a curve,' basically. I think the number of views will translate into someone's head as 'there is money here' and it won't have a negative impact.

3. The DC Universe of movies and how they evolve or continue?

Continue to flail randomly in different directions.
The main thing is that Marvel has a formula thats creaking at the edges a bit, but consistently produces average to good movies (that bring in good money).
DC puts out random stuff (recently: generic ensemble, psychological character piece, kids supers, and now however you'd categorize this) and there seems to be no knowing if they're going to be decent or flops. This seems to have garnered enough attention in the current state of things (if not direct ticket sales) that it probably won't change anything.


If we're really lucky, it might cause some re-evaluation of the 'blockbuster formula' and they'll fall back on tighter scripts and focus less on millions of dollars in snooze-fest 'spectacles.' But I'm not going to hold my breath on that.

 Easy E wrote:
So, how does the poor reception of this movie impact the following:

1. Careers of the actors/leads?
2. Career of the director?
3. The DC Universe of movies and how they evolve or continue?

Thought and wild speculation please....

Personally the performances of the core trio are some of the more positive aspects. I will watch a third one, but I will go to the absolute least effort or cost to do so in the light of this one.

I can't see this affecting the DCEU because it's insulated by time from the events of most other movies, and the director has another one and a SW movie to do, so while she might not be doing "worthy" projects, she's certainly doing high profile and lucrative ones.

Justice League was so bad I'm still trying to get a refund for it and I pirated it.

It didn't have enough sparkle and too many of the heroes were useless or had overlapping not complimentary skills.

WW was great, but it didn't do anything we hadn't seen before and definitely didn't do any of those things well, but it had an OK story, the main character had a good arc, the premise wasnt too bad, it looked great. There were a bunch of problems but lets just eat popcorn and enjoy the movie.

WW84 has me looking for that refund again. It didn't deliver on anything and directly contradicted established canon. And a WWI pilot flying a jet? Naaaah.

And a WWI pilot flying a jet? Naaaah.

It reminds me of the scene in the Avengers where Steve is looking at the control bank for the helicarrier engine, and simply says 'It... runs on electricity?'

This movie does the opposite of that.

Its an 'out of context' problem. Working with older technology is possible. Working with future technology that doesn't tell you what to do is like staring at a blank wall.

Plus the Smithsonian Air & Space museum downtown doesn't keep fueled fighter jets on hand. Or have anywhere one could take off.

The Udvar-Hazy Air & Space annex center next to Dulles airport doesn't open until 2003 (and still doesn't keep fueled and maintained aircraft around)

And an 80s jetfighter would run out fuel somewhere in the Atlantic.

Like most of the 'Steve' problems in this film, the script creates the problem. Everyone else sees the possessed host. That guy could reasonably have a passport, and it doesn't strain any suspension of disbelief if he does. Just get on a flight to Egypt.

Or.. just don't chase Max to Egypt for no reason. Especially not just to pass him on the road rather than track him down. Have your little action-bash'em in Washington or on Satellite Island or on the way from one to the other.

I think I'm right in saying that the sequence on the road in Egypt is the first time Diana does anything like proper Wonder Womaning in the movie (if you discount the James Bond style near pre-credits sequence in the mall) and it's almost an hour into the film.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think I'm right in saying that the sequence on the road in Egypt is the first time Diana does anything like proper Wonder Womaning in the movie (if you discount the James Bond style near pre-credits sequence in the mall) and it's almost an hour into the film.

Little more, actually- more like an hour twenty.

And the childhood prequel sequence is almost 18 minutes.
Apparently Warner Brothers wanted Jenkins to chop either the childhood bit or the mall bit, but she refused. Sadly, its one of the times where WB interference was right on the money. The movie would have been better.

Now we're getting a post hoc justification that the whole Steve sub plot was a commentary on the dubious moral nature of the body swap genre, and renouncing the wish in the end means the consequences are largely erased and therefore within the movie's reality it never happened and is therefore ok.

FFS.

https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-1984-patty-jenkins-steve-trevor-defense/

I mean... yeah, body swaps are generally morally dubious. This body swap is morally dubious. I'm glad they reached the point thanks to some random twitter post, but I'm not sure how that makes it OK?

It doesn't even vaguely address _any_ of the consent issues, either with sex or putting 'the random guy' in a great deal of danger. 'The swap is morally dubious' isn't a problematic statement (though the film really doesn't actually take much time to say that), their actions toward their victim is the problem. Having the director say 'I get that its problematic, that was the goal all along' doesn't make it less problematic. The heroic thing for WW to do is to revoke her wish the moment she realizes what's happened, not indulge in it for a bit and then pretend that revoking it later erases her selfish decisions.

And yes, 'Big' is super creepy.

Voss wrote:
Plus the Smithsonian Air & Space museum downtown doesn't keep fueled fighter jets on hand. Or have anywhere one could take off.

The Udvar-Hazy Air & Space annex center next to Dulles airport doesn't open until 2003 (and still doesn't keep fueled and maintained aircraft around)

That doesn't even top the stupid of this scene (which is where I quit the second time).

Doesn't WW work for the Smithsonian and wasn't that her using her credentials to get into the facility? This idea is so hair brained. She's freaking fired and charged (and this is like, easily the third completely unnecessary crime she commits in this movie). It's baby detective work to look at who came and went from the building and note who never actually left after entering.

And that's still not the dumbest part. The absolute dumbest part is that neither WW nor Steve the Body Stealer ever bothered to go back and check if the guy Steve is inhabiting has a passport. You mentioned that, but it's so stupid it deserves condemnation twice.



I say nothing of my continuing complaint that Hollywood takes beautiful women, dresses them frumpy, and then honestly wants me to believe this person is 'ugly' solely because the plot insists, but in a movie that wants to brag about its feminist credentials, this entire plot point is especially jarring.

Having the director say 'I get that its problematic, that was the goal all along' doesn't make it less problematic.

It's also a self-serving BS defense, because on the face of it I see no point in this film where the issue of Steve is in another dude's body is even remotely addressed as anything but a quirky circumstance. Neither character lingers for even a second on the question of whether or not this guy is okay, if he's aware of what's happening, or ever ponders the morality of letting Steve stay in his body. In fact,



Part of this is how completely muddled and impossible the plot's point is. Is it that living a lie is bad, or that some things, even nice things, aren't worth the price you pay for them? Either one of those themes could work in the movie but the movie would have to actually pick one and stick with it rather than meander about searching for a point (and a plot to make it with).

There's also something to be said for how baffling the whole 'in another body thing is.' The dream stone can conjure, walls, nukes, and paparazzi from thin air. Why exactly does it need some random dude to manifest Steve? It can conjure farm animals but not a body?