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I had read a quote that Tau had given up on Warp exploration, because it deemed as foolhardy and foolish. It goes in line with their thinking, for example their ships do lack macro guns while Imperial ships are full of them. This results that even a small Imperial frigate can wreak havoc even against greatest of Tau ships up close, but Tau refuses to put more close quarters firepower, because it considers such warfare suicidal and equally dangerous and very wasteful. In a same fashion, it is not hard to imagine that Tau might have an issue with utterly non-scientific means of transportation through a dimension which is best described as literal hell and with constant uncertainty. Your ship might arrive on time or centuries later. Not to mention that ship might not even emerge from the Warp at all or its crew might go utterly mad during the trip. I think that Tau is simply not interested in warp exploration combined with their total inability to do so themselves.

 Ernestas wrote:
I had read a quote that Tau had given up on Warp exploration, because it deemed as foolhardy and foolish. It goes in line with their thinking, for example their ships do lack macro guns while Imperial ships are full of them. This results that even a small Imperial frigate can wreak havoc even against greatest of Tau ships up close, but Tau refuses to put more close quarters firepower, because it considers such warfare suicidal and equally dangerous and very wasteful. In a same fashion, it is not hard to imagine that Tau might have an issue with utterly non-scientific means of transportation through a dimension which is best described as literal hell and with constant uncertainty. Your ship might arrive on time or centuries later. Not to mention that ship might not even emerge from the Warp at all or its crew might go utterly mad during the trip. I think that Tau is simply not interested in warp exploration combined with their total inability to do so themselves.

Tau warships carry macro-scale equivalents of Railguns and Ion Cannons. They dont fit archaic bullets because that isnt their technology base, not because of some irrational dislike of knife fights.

They do dislike knife fights. This is why they carry only symbolic close quarters armaments and their main punch is done via torpedo strikes. It is not surprising, because most of their ships lack FTL engines, they have to put their escort class ship within their ships. That is hugely inefficient in term of combat ship design. Imagine having to design a battleship who also would have a capacity of a carrier to launch planes! Their ships are like carriers, too expensive and few in number to risk losing and inherently too fragile/expensive to fight with them.

 Ernestas wrote:
Imagine having to design a battleship who also would have a capacity of a carrier to launch planes! Their ships are like carriers, too expensive and few in number to risk losing and inherently too fragile/expensive to fight with them.

Why yes, that would never be a functional concept, nobody would ever...



Oh. Right.

 Ernestas wrote:
They do dislike knife fights. This is why they carry only symbolic close quarters armaments and their main punch is done via torpedo strikes.

This is demonstrably false. Tau ships are not designed with broadside fighting in mind. They're heavily armed with railgun and ion weapons in addition to guided missiles. They effectively redesigned their entire navy after their first engagements with the Imperial Navy during the Damocles Gulf conflicts, in large part to provide far better capacity in pitched battles. The naval encounters in the Taros campaign (and later during the 3rd and 4th sphere expansions) showed just how effective that doctrinal approach was.

Uhm, broadside fighting = knife fighting. At first you are arguing that Tau do like broadside fighting. Then you are arguing that they are not designed for close quarters battles. Tau ships do have comparatively small and weak close quarters armaments and maneuvering thrusters. Compared to absolutely massive macro weaponary of Imperium, macro turrets of Tau are just punny in their destructive potential.


Also, I did not said that it will be unworkable. I said that it makes such ships impractical for direct combat roles. Hence, Tau's allergy to risky and confrontational strategies.

 Ernestas wrote:
Uhm, broadside fighting = knife fighting.

Wrong. CQB is how naval combat happens in 40k. The Tau simply design their ships to be able to do it flexibly (as does quite literally every other naval power in the galaxy I would point out), as opposed to the "YOU MUST RECREATE THE AGE OF SAIL" tactical approach that the Imperium goes for.

 Ernestas wrote:
Tau ships do have comparatively small and weak close quarters armaments and maneuvering thrusters. Compared to absolutely massive macro weaponary of Imperium, macro turrets of Tau are just punny in their destructive potential.

Also wrong. Railgun and Ion batteries mounted by the Kor'Vattra are more than capable of slagging even the largest of Imperial warships.

 Ernestas wrote:

Also, I did not said that it will be unworkable. I said that it makes such ships impractical for direct combat roles. Hence, Tau's allergy to risky and confrontational strategies.

And exceptionally wrong. The Air Caste routinely goes toe to toe with Imperial, Tyrannid and Ork warships.They simply have no issue with a tactical withdrawl if it suits their needs.

 Ernestas wrote:
I had read a quote that Tau had given up on Warp exploration, because it deemed as foolhardy and foolish.

It was the foolhardiness of the Ethereals that caused the 4th sphere disaster in the first place. The developer of their new warp drive warned them that breaching reality so many times in one spot could be dangerous, but they went and did it anyways. And the same team of scientists is studying the Startide Nexus, so they haven't given up on warp travel just yet.

And the Tau definitely have FTL that's not warp based, because in the current fluff they talk about the Slipstream drive allowing them to cross the Tau Empire in "days rather than the many months it would normally take". Even in the densest star clusters crossing dozens of systems would take decades at lightspeed, never mind sub-light speeds.

Honestly, cruiser on cruiser imperial and tau ship's are a pretty close match. Tau guns have a slight edge in range, and are better able to be concentrate forwards, whilst broadside-heavy imperials carry more firepower in total.

The practical upshot is that in single-duel engagements, the Tau have the edge unless the fight is sufficiently close-up that boarding becomes a factor, but in bigger battles where a ship can be expected to be engaged on both flanks simultaneously, and battlecruisers and battleships whose guns outrange even tau naval railguns and dedicated carriers to balance the smallwr organic launch capacity of most tau cruisers start to appear, the balance shifts to the Imperials.

Honestly, the Imperial navy's big edges are mostly intangible stuff in game - astropaths plus independently warp-capable destroyers provide the edge in ISR

 Ernestas wrote:
I had read a quote that Tau had given up on Warp exploration, because it deemed as foolhardy and foolish. It goes in line with their thinking, for example their ships do lack macro guns while Imperial ships are full of them. This results that even a small Imperial frigate can wreak havoc even against greatest of Tau ships up close, but Tau refuses to put more close quarters firepower, because it considers such warfare suicidal and equally dangerous and very wasteful. In a same fashion, it is not hard to imagine that Tau might have an issue with utterly non-scientific means of transportation through a dimension which is best described as literal hell and with constant uncertainty. Your ship might arrive on time or centuries later. Not to mention that ship might not even emerge from the Warp at all or its crew might go utterly mad during the trip. I think that Tau is simply not interested in warp exploration combined with their total inability to do so themselves.

They said "7.8 out of 10, too much eldritch gak" to the concept.

It is clear to me that you want to just disagree in order to protect yourself. You actually went against your point twice and just ignored that in order to disagree with me more. First you said that Tau gears for close combat. Then you said it doesn't. In your third post you got confused all together of what close combat means.

Sterling191 wrote:

Wrong. CQB is how naval combat happens in 40k. The Tau simply design their ships to be able to do it flexibly (as does quite literally every other naval power in the galaxy I would point out), as opposed to the "YOU MUST RECREATE THE AGE OF SAIL" tactical approach that the Imperium goes for.

Like really? Nothing could be farther from a truth. Even close quarters weaponary counts its ranges in hundreds of thousands of kilometers and near miss in W40k terms are projectiles missing by few hundred to thousands of kilometers. There is nothing ''close'' in W40k space battles. You got that impression from video games and tabletop rather than lore which prefers spectacle over reality. In truth, ramming which you can see in every battle in video games practically never happens in a lore and if Imperial ships do try to ram something, it is often as a desperate last measure. Often this tactic is met with disappointment and folly. For example, just take a look at how this ramming had worked in Vraks. Imperial fleet and ships were decimated before they could get close.

Sterling191 wrote:

Also wrong. Railgun and Ion batteries mounted by the Kor'Vattra are more than capable of slagging even the largest of Imperial warships.

Source? In games Tau close in systems are a lot weaker and fewer than that of Imperial ships. For example, Or'es El'leath Class Battleship is a true dedicated battleship. What does it have? 24 missile launchers! This is extremely long range firepower and right of the bat Tau battleship dedicates vast majority of its frontal space to extremely long firepower. 2 Ion Cannons. These function like Imperial lances which are long range firepower. It carries 8 heavy double barrelled railguns. These are only weapons which can be considered short ranged. Yet, again, these do not come to rival performance of Imperial macrobateries. Railguns have greater range, but relatively lower damage output and longer cooldown than a standard macro battery. They are not exactly optimized for short range firepower, because they have too much velocity and power behind each shot which increases their reload rate and range, which are undesirable traits in a short range fight. Now, the last weapon on this ship are 12 lighter railguns. Since they do not specify that these things are starship railguns, it means that they are point defense railguns, such as seen on Mantas. This kind of firepower on space warfare level is utterly laughable and would pose any kind of threat only against lightest of frigates. Rest of its armament is made up of 3 Gravitic Hooks and 6 launch bays. It possesses immense carrier potential as this ship can provide its own escort and fighters which are extremely versatile and long range. So, in conclusion.

Long range: 26 weapons;
Medium range: 8 weapons;
Short range: 12;
Utility: 3 escorts and 6 squadrons;


Now, lets see REAL close range battleship. After seeing this half-breed you all might be wondering how true battleship looks like. I will take Retribution as an example, because it is longest serving, most popular and most stereotypical of Imperial close range approach.

32 torpedo launchers. 3 Lance turrets. 24 x Plasma Macro Battery Weapons.

Long Range: 35 weapons;
Short Range: 24 weapons;

So, not only Imperial battleship outdo Tau battleship in quantity of long range firepower, but also it has more than double of close quarters firepower and the quality of these guns are leagues ahead of that Tau use. While on Tau these weapons are more for point defense against strike aircraft as these railguns are of ground base scale, they are unlikely to be a huge threat even to a frigate and can only cause significant danger to attack craft. These are weapon systems which you would see in Mantas and other Tau attack craft and you have sheer balls to claim that these guns are equal in power to Imperial Plasma micro cannons? Jeez, your every post was wrong, but this takes a cake. You take tank/heavy bomber type of armament and compare it to macro cannon which with a single shot can level whole city!

Sterling191 wrote:

And exceptionally wrong. The Air Caste routinely goes toe to toe with Imperial, Tyrannid and Ork warships.They simply have no issue with a tactical withdrawl if it suits their needs.

This just shows that you did not bothered to read what I wrote, because your responses does not make sense. You are more interested to stroke your ego and ramble about people being wrong rather than to read what they are saying or to make a coherent argument of your very own.


(I took data from Lexicanum, w40 Fandom and battlefleet Gothic)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

locarno24 wrote:
Honestly, cruiser on cruiser imperial and tau ship's are a pretty close match. Tau guns have a slight edge in range, and are better able to be concentrate forwards, whilst broadside-heavy imperials carry more firepower in total.

The practical upshot is that in single-duel engagements, the Tau have the edge unless the fight is sufficiently close-up that boarding becomes a factor, but in bigger battles where a ship can be expected to be engaged on both flanks simultaneously, and battlecruisers and battleships whose guns outrange even tau naval railguns and dedicated carriers to balance the smallwr organic launch capacity of most tau cruisers start to appear, the balance shifts to the Imperials.

Honestly, the Imperial navy's big edges are mostly intangible stuff in game - astropaths plus independently warp-capable destroyers provide the edge in ISR

Tau fleet in general is long ranged, accurate, frontal facing with long reloads. Imperial weaponary is more numerous, tough, destructive. Their ships also reflect that. I did not mentioned in my previous post that Tau usually suck in boarding actions. They have no boarders themselves and close quarters, high intensity, high casualty boarding operations directly counter Tau way of war. As I said, if for example Falchion gets close, it carries 4 torpedo tubes and 3 Light Macro Turrets. That is 1/4'th of entire Tau's battleship worth of close range firepower just in macro weapons! This is ignoring that it carries 4 torpedo launchers, each capable of causing critical to catastrophic damage to Tau battleship. Sword frigate is more flexible and does not carry massive torpedo tubes. It has lesser firepower, but instead it carries 4 light macro cannons. It alone rivals 1/3'th of Tau's Battleship firepower! Put something a little bit heavier next to Tau Battleship like light cruiser Dauntless MK.II. It has 8 torpedo launchers. 2 Double-Barrel Light Macro Turret, 6 x Light Macro Battery Weapons. In essence it is 10 light macro weapons. It is a close match for an entire battleship... Not to mention that it is absolutely loaded with torpedos which in lore can seriously wreck a battleship. I will repeat this, Imperial frigate can wreak havoc upon Tau battleship who doesn't have protection of lore armor. Imperial light cruiser is a close match to Tau battleship up close and it can run ''circles'' around it dodging arc of fire of heavier weapons and outmaneuvering it in a turn. Sure, there are things like bigger guns and escort, attack craft, but if you compare Imperial battleship vs its own frigate or light cruiser, those two don't even come close in comparisons. These ships should get absolutely destroyed if they got close, but instead we are seeing that they can match them in firepower...

Crunch is not remotely fluff mate (and vice versa). But nice try. Please continue to spout off BFG stat blocks like they remotely mean a damn thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ernestas wrote:
It is clear to me that you want to just disagree in order to protect yourself. You actually went against your point twice and just ignored that in order to disagree with me more. First you said that Tau gears for close combat. Then you said it doesn't. In your third post you got confused all together of what close combat means.

You clearly did not read what I wrote, and are selectively interpreting what you want. Carry on yelling shrilly into the void. We'll wait.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
Uhm, broadside fighting = knife fighting.

Wrong. CQB is how naval combat happens in 40k. The Tau simply design their ships to be able to do it flexibly (as does quite literally every other naval power in the galaxy I would point out), as opposed to the "YOU MUST RECREATE THE AGE OF SAIL" tactical approach that the Imperium goes for.

 Ernestas wrote:
Tau ships do have comparatively small and weak close quarters armaments and maneuvering thrusters. Compared to absolutely massive macro weaponary of Imperium, macro turrets of Tau are just punny in their destructive potential.

Also wrong. Railgun and Ion batteries mounted by the Kor'Vattra are more than capable of slagging even the largest of Imperial warships.

 Ernestas wrote:

Also, I did not said that it will be unworkable. I said that it makes such ships impractical for direct combat roles. Hence, Tau's allergy to risky and confrontational strategies.

And exceptionally wrong. The Air Caste routinely goes toe to toe with Imperial, Tyrannid and Ork warships.They simply have no issue with a tactical withdrawl if it suits their needs.

I dont know man. The losses the Tau fleet suffered are actually worse than the Imperials. In one engagement, they lost a Custodian class battleship, a cruiser, and some escorts to like 2 Imperial cruisers and their escorts. The Tau navy did do a good job with destroying Imperial escorts and transport ships with their shiny new cruisers though, but they were still slightly outclassed by their Imperial counterparts. (You can read about this on either lexicanum or wiki. Maybe even both)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Im on your side Ernestas, but those 12 railguns are not ground based. They are star ship-scaled guns. When it comes to point defensr turrets, GW usually doesnt even talk about them

Well, they are specifically stated to be lighter variant than usual. Due to lack of reliable sources on such matters it is difficult to judge, because one source tells me one thing, another, different thing all together.

I went with basic logic and general fluff. You do know that Imperial fleet had destroyed Tau battleship at the lost of some cruisers and escorts. Do you think that those escorts and cruisers would had been so successful if those were proper variants? Don't you think that having 12 railguns which are equivalent to Imperial macro cannons would not be too much? It is 1,5 of an Imperial broadside. This would mean that Tau battleship would be carrying almost full heavy cruiser's armament! I mean, this is just insane when you think of it. A battleship armed to a brim with missiles, long range weaponary and serves as a carrier and is capable of transporting its own screens now also has nearly as much firepower as Imperial heavy cruiser at short range? It simply doesn't make sense and if you think of it, I think that those guns being specifically mentioned being as light railguns are correct. Light railguns can be compared to light macro cannons, though we have no confirmation about it. There is no information either about what constitutes a light railgun. Is it one used on attack crafts? In my analysis I had treated it as being equal to Imperial light macro cannon. I was very generous as it is and Tau battleship still came short.