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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?
Who will burn him?

I too would like to know who you think is going to burn Robute "living saint of the Imperium" (and yes he's been declared a living saint) Gulliman for heresy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?

Was resurrected by a xeno necromancer. Did not immedetialy slay said necromancer
Consorted with a known technoheretic.
Blasphemously claimed that the Emperor had spoken to him.
Unlawfully sacked some High Lords.
Usurped the position of a High Lord, then exceeded the legal authority granted to said position.
Violated the holy Codex Astartes and countless other rules and traditions.

Who will burn him?

I don't know, but whoever it is will be the greatest hero of the Imperium has seen since Ollanius Pius saved the Emperor from Horus!

Was resurrected by a xeno necromancer. Did not immedetialy slay said necromancer

benifiting from xenos aide is.... pretty common among the IoMs upper echelons.

Consorted with a known technoheretic.

Cawl hasn't been deemed as such by the admech.

Blasphemously claimed that the Emperor had spoken to him.

thats not blasphemy, he was escorted into the throne room by the Adeptus Custodes for an audiance, are you claiming that the emperor would not speak to someone granted an audiance? speaking of Blasphemy..

Unlawfully sacked some High Lords.

entirely lawful for him to do so, he simply took up his position on the high lords, a position he'd held since the heresy.

Usurped the position of a High Lord, then exceeded the legal authority granted to said position.

no usurping about it. Gulliman was acting within the authority he was granted by the emperor in continuation with authority he'd held since the emperor's ascension.

Violated the holy Codex Astartes and countless other rules and traditions.

where did he violate it? remember he's it's author, he's allowed thus to make revisions.

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?

Was resurrected by a xeno necromancer. Did not immedetialy slay said necromancer

Was similarly aided by a high ranking member of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and the entire thing was given explicit approval by a living vessel of the Emperor (Celestine) and high ranking members of one of the most famous First Founding Chapters.

Consorted with a known technoheretic.

Cawl has not been declared a technoheretic. He is very much working under Imperial remit and authority. While he may not be supported as a leader, he is not under serious accusations of heresy.

Blasphemously claimed that the Emperor had spoken to him.

A claim supported by the Custodes, the only body to legally verify and endorse such a claim. Similarly, we know that the Emperor very much *did* speak with him, from an OOC perspective.

Unlawfully sacked some High Lords.

Had the mandate from both the Emperor, the Custodes, a living vessel of the Emperor, and his own authority as Lord Commander of the Imperium, reclaimed from before he was put in stasis, giving him legal authority to do just that.
His only limit is practical authority, much like an Inquisitor. However, due to him being a Primarch, a Living Saint, and supported by dozens of highly influential and powerful institutions unless he tried to completely disband the Ecclesiarchy or the entire HLOT, he shouldn't exactly be limited.

Usurped the position of a High Lord, then exceeded the legal authority granted to said position.

Was granted position of Lord Commander long before he went under stasis, and is merely reclaiming his lost position.

Violated the holy Codex Astartes and countless other rules and traditions.

The book he wrote himself, and providing replacement doctrines? Not to mention my point as above, his practical status allowing him greater authority than any other leader save for the Emperor.

Who will burn him?

I don't know, but whoever it is will be the greatest hero of the Imperium has seen since Ollanius Pius saved the Emperor from Horus!

Or alternatively, will be a short-sighted fool for killing off the best hope of survival humanity has had since the Emperor fell.
The Imperium only *resists* because of Guilliman's efforts. Without the Indomitus Crusade, without Guilliman having to take the reins and whip the Imperium into a better shape, it would have long splintered and broken apart. Humanity might still exist, scattered and isolated in their own little pocket empires, but the only form of galactically united humanity that would exist would be Gue'vesa, or those pledged to Chaos.

Killing Guilliman would be obscenely impractical and suicidal, even for the Imperium's standards - but similarly, Guilliman removing the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition would be near impossible. They must co-exist.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
RG is a heretic and will burn.

Heretical in what way?
Who will burn him?

All traitors/heretics burn. It's just how it is.

There are people who get the grimdark black humour of the setting and there are people who do not.

The shining hero chosen by the Emperor returning to save the Imperium at the time of great need getting burned as a heretic by the superstitious authorities jealous of their power is an absolutely splendid narrative.

"But ackchyually that would not happen, because Guilliman is so awesome, and everyone loves him..."

Yeah, whatever mate.

Unfortunately these days the writers belong to the latter category, They no longer understand their own setting, and have succumbed to the fannish Space Marine hero-worship which sees marines as shining noble heroes and the Imperium needs to be led by Guilliman, the biggest and shiniest and noblest superduper Space Marine ever. Setting bloody ruined, man.

 Crimson wrote:
There are people who get the grimdark black humour of the setting and there are people who do not.

"hah lol ur dumb" - if anyone's seen the whole Rick and Morty copypasta about how only people with a "high IQ" understand the show, this wouldn't be a million miles from it.

Look mate, I get the setting: no need to flex the whole "don't get the setting" nonsense. But the whole "lol everything sucks you can't have successes" got old. If you think the setting is suddenly not grimdark, you really haven't been paying attention to any of the current lore.
Guilliman hasn't stopped the Imperium's xenophobia. He hasn't changed the general quality of life substantially. His only real accomplishment is maintaining the status quo, against his own will, in spite of catastrophic damage to his father's empire in the form of the Great Rift.

Guilliman is no different to the heroes like Sebastian Thor, Macharius, Horus, and Thane, people who have managed to keep the Imperium afloat, through supreme effort - and many of them were great people, people who were actually well-intentioned, noble and brave. But, and this is the key thing about 40k, it doesn't matter. The Imperium's still a mess, it's still morally despicable, and it's still embattled on all sides. Guilliman hasn't changed any of that.

You're complaining about a new shiny coat of paint, and ignoring the rotten core beneath.

The shining hero chosen by the Emperor returning to save the Imperium at the time of great need getting burned as a heretic by the superstitious authorities jealous of their power is an absolutely splendid narrative.

Sounds incredibly boring and overplayed to me.

We've already got "haha lol we killed our best hope of survival because we're SO GRIMDARKK". It's overplayed. It's like Game of Thrones, killing characters off (or faking it) for cheap shock value instead of for a decent narratives.
Guilliman coming back and being critical of the setting IN UNIVERSE gives us a great opportunity to contrast what the Imperium could/should be to what it is. And having the most powerful man in the Imperium be unable to do anything meaningful about it is delicious.

I believe that there's a rather nice Superman comic where he actually attempts to do lasting good for Earth by attempting to solve world hunger, water crises, etc etc - and he fails, because he can't change world governments and the corrupt and flawed systems therein. This is the situation Guilliman finds himself in - and it's far FAR more satisfying than some trite "he gets burnt alive bc muh heresy".

"But ackchyually that would not happen, because Guilliman is so awesome, and everyone loves him..."

Yeah, whatever mate.

That's the lore, mate.
Sorry to break it to you, but everyone saying "Guilliman would be burnt as a heretic" has a very selective understanding of the Imperium.

Guilliman is a Primarch, probably one of the most recognisable of the 9 Loyalists (probably second after Sanguinius), and also a VERY competent statesman and politician, with probably the most lasting impact on the Imperium, as well as having held prior authority over it beforehand. Of ANY Primarch to come back and be able to marshal the Imperium into something barely capable of withstanding the Great Rift, it's the boy in blue.

Unfortunately these days the writers belong to the latter category, They no longer understand their own setting and have succumbed to the fannish Space Marine hero-worship which sees marines as shining noble heroes and the Imperium needs to be led by Guilliman, the biggest and shiniest and noblest superduper Space Marine ever. Setting bloody ruined, man.

Your idea of 40k, perhaps. Mine? Still alive and well.

I'm sorry you don't enjoy it. I really am. But making blanket statments like "they've ruined the setting" ain't a fact, and it's not hard to find the same grimdark core in the current lore, if anyone cared to look beyond the memes trotted out.

indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

BrianDavion wrote:
indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

I guess Dostoyevsky was into grim derp then.

BrianDavion wrote:
indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

Exactly.
There's a difference between "the Imperium sucks because there's nothing good", and "the Imperium sucks because the good doesn't change it".

True grimdarkness is good failing to do anything to change the inherent problems of the world.

While I think Guilliman is 100% a huge heretic (he doesn't even believe in the almighty God-Emperor) I think having him killed would be silly. There probably are some in universe people who'd want to kill him seeing as some of the Imperium hates Navigators but a better grimdark setting is that Guilliman can't make things better because things have gone past that.

Personally if I wanted to have Guilliman do something dramatic it would be ditching the Imperium and trying to preserve humanity in a different form.

pm713 wrote:
While I think Guilliman is 100% a huge heretic (he doesn't even believe in the almighty God-Emperor) I think having him killed would be silly. There probably are some in universe people who'd want to kill him seeing as some of the Imperium hates Navigators but a better grimdark setting is that Guilliman can't make things better because things have gone past that.

Personally if I wanted to have Guilliman do something dramatic it would be ditching the Imperium and trying to preserve humanity in a different form.

There indeed are indeed options between burning him as a heretic and crowning him as a de facto leader of the Imperium.

I think there would have been interesting possibilities for narrative tension if he had been given a lesser position, Lord Commander Ultima (the top military leader of Segmentum Ultima), Warmaster etc. The High Lords would try to keep him somewhat satisfied and most importantly busy with all sort of wars, because they would fear that he would do the exact thing he did in the canon lore. Guilliman would resent them and would try improve things, but couldn't move directly against the High Lords as that would risk a civil war.

thing is that Gulliman is a solution to a OOC problem for GW, namely "ok the setting is over 30 years old, there are some things we'd like to change to work better with the world as it goes but we can't actually rationalize it without changing something in universe."

Gulliman allows them to do that, and I'm not talking primaris marines eaither. Gulliman allows you to deploy 3 ultramarine devestator squads on a table, all with gold trim without explictly breaking canon.

BrianDavion wrote:
thing is that Gulliman is a solution to a OOC problem for GW, namely "ok the setting is over 30 years old, there are some things we'd like to change to work better with the world as it goes but we can't actually rationalize it without changing something in universe."

Gulliman allows them to do that, and I'm not talking primaris marines eaither. Gulliman allows you to deploy 3 ultramarine devestator squads on a table, all with gold trim without explictly breaking canon.

Yeah, I really would have preferred them to just retcon that sort of stuff in, and even the primaris marines too. It would have been far less disruptive.

Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

 Aestas wrote:
Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

I mean, he's been in stasis how long and then got out. How are you going to call that an impostor, especially when people were claiming his wounds were healing in stasis too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:
Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

I mean, he's been in stasis how long and then got out. How are you going to call that an impostor, especially when people were claiming his wounds were healing in stasis too.

It could easily be a lie that he came out of stasis rather than some lab especially if you don't live in Ultramar and you had people saying his wounds weren't healing like Marneus Calgar, who would know better than anyone. Not believing he's the real Guilliman is very plausible and to be honest more believable.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

I guess Dostoyevsky was into grim derp then.

Boy if you think everything should be grimdark for the sake of being grimdark, you're gonna hate the Ciaphas Cain series!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:
Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

I mean, he's been in stasis how long and then got out. How are you going to call that an impostor, especially when people were claiming his wounds were healing in stasis too.

Did you forget the Xenos Necromancer? The vile aliens have desecrated the tomb of a beloved mythic hero, and with their foul sorcery made his corpse into their zombie puppet! This is the ultimate blasphemy! Death to the xenos, death to the heretics who consort with the xenos!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
indeed there's a differance between grimdark and grim derp. Gulliman being burtn "cause lol grim dark" would be grim derp

I guess Dostoyevsky was into grim derp then.

Boy if you think everything should be grimdark for the sake of being grimdark, you're gonna hate the Ciaphas Cain series!

Possibly. But if you imply that I think 40K shouldn't contain humour, then you don't understand grimdark (and possibly don't understand humour either.) Grimdark is black humour, it is satire.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Aestas wrote:
Have we heard anything about rebellions/riots or parts of the Imperial Cult denouncing old Robbie as an imposter? I mean, realistically, big parts of the cult would. Just imagine an apostle, let's say Simon, returning to the Christian world after only 2000 years saying "yeah, I used to hang with the Big Guy, now make me pope!"

I don't think everyone would buy that, even if mayor figures/and or organizations of the Church/Churches backed him.

I mean, he's been in stasis how long and then got out. How are you going to call that an impostor, especially when people were claiming his wounds were healing in stasis too.

Try to think about how easy and regularly even readily verifiable information gets bent out of shape on our little planet, and then apply that to the size of the galaxy (the whole, g** d*** galaxy).
On top of that add in the implausibility of the claim that a son of the Emperor returned after ten thousand years of absence plus the implication the truth of this statement has on theology and internal power-structures within the Imperium. I find it borderline bad writing that half the Ministerium and half the Ecclesiarchy didn't rebel at once. (Exaggerated to make a point).

pm713 wrote:It could easily be a lie that he came out of stasis rather than some lab especially if you don't live in Ultramar and you had people saying his wounds weren't healing like Marneus Calgar, who would know better than anyone. Not believing he's the real Guilliman is very plausible and to be honest more believable.

Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

Crimson wrote:Did you forget the Xenos Necromancer? The vile aliens have desecrated the tomb of a beloved mythic hero, and with their foul sorcery made his corpse into their zombie puppet! This is the ultimate blasphemy! Death to the xenos, death to the heretics who consort with the xenos!

If they knew about Yraine's involvement, then they'd also know that Celestine explicitly gave her blessing. Who wants to call a Living Saint, a proven miracle worker, a heretic?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Don't forget - we know about Yraine's involvement. Hive gangers on Random Planet 513 don't. IIRC, we don't even know if other High Lords know, but even if so, for them to exclaim heresy for use of xenotech would be massively hypocritical for many - I'm sure several have "exotic" personal collections of their own.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:It could easily be a lie that he came out of stasis rather than some lab especially if you don't live in Ultramar and you had people saying his wounds weren't healing like Marneus Calgar, who would know better than anyone. Not believing he's the real Guilliman is very plausible and to be honest more believable.

Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

Crimson wrote:Did you forget the Xenos Necromancer? The vile aliens have desecrated the tomb of a beloved mythic hero, and with their foul sorcery made his corpse into their zombie puppet! This is the ultimate blasphemy! Death to the xenos, death to the heretics who consort with the xenos!

If they knew about Yraine's involvement, then they'd also know that Celestine explicitly gave her blessing. Who wants to call a Living Saint, a proven miracle worker, a heretic?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Don't forget - we know about Yraine's involvement. Hive gangers on Random Planet 513 don't. IIRC, we don't even know if other High Lords know, but even if so, for them to exclaim heresy for use of xenotech would be massively hypocritical for many - I'm sure several have "exotic" personal collections of their own.

indeed the eldar purposefully did not make the trek to Terra. the only people who know about Yrvine's involvement in his ressurection are The Ultramarines, the grey knights, Greyfax, and Celestine. and they all, for their reasons, aren't talking.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Yes, more of 'But everyone loves Guilliman!" Yes, that is the fluff. And it is terrible writing. Living saints are now condoning xenos necromancy FFS! I really don't understand how people can defend this sort of utter bs.

 Crimson wrote:
There are people who get the grimdark black humour of the setting and there are people who do not.

Unfortunately the setting has been completely flanderized, and to some, grimdark now means it's raining poop from the sky 24/7 and on bad days it's the chunky kind. 40k as a setting is just mindless memesters yelling "BURN THE HERETIEEKS" at...anything really, anything that is remotely more complex than "and then the commissar shot everyone because grimderp"

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Yes, more of 'But everyone loves Guilliman!" Yes, that is the fluff. And it is terrible writing. Living saints are now condoning xenos necromancy FFS! I really don't understand how people can defend this sort of utter bs.

Terrible writing aside... This is a setting where having a somewhat strong claim to being a physical descendant of the Emperor (Sensei) wouldn't be enough to save you from a pyre... Somebody, a lot of somebodies, should be bringing out the pitchfork and heading for Terra right about now.

Crimson wrote:Living saints are now condoning xenos necromancy FFS!

When xenos necromancy returns a great hero of the Imperium at a time of desperate need, I think it's completely in character for a Living Saint to do just that.

After all, the Emperor is nearly explicitly stated as using raw Chaos power to create the Primarchs. Having a vestige of the Emperor's power condone such an action makes perfect sense.

Aestas wrote:This is a setting where having a somewhat strong claim to being a physical descendant of the Emperor (Sensei) wouldn't be enough to save you from a pyre

It's also a setting where the Emperor is venerated as a god, may very well *be* a god because of said worship, and almost anything directly linked to him is blindly venerated. This is a setting where the shells of bolter rounds are treated as sacred relics, where the very ground Space Marines walk upon is worshipped by the Imperial citizenry, where the Primarchs themselves are idolised in myth and legend across the Imperium, where the word of the Emperor's most trusted and sacred guardians is law.

The Imperium is a massively suspicious and sometimes actively detrimental to itself, but it is also incredibly hidebound in it's religious doctrine and veneration of the Emperor. Simply focusing on "the Imperium would never trust anyone" and ignoring "the Imperium is immensely devoted to the Emperor and his sons" is missing a great deal of why the Imperium is such a complex entity, and why Guilliman actually is in a pretty ironic situation: he is probably only so loved and accepted, so above suspicion by the masses BECAUSE of the church he seeks to abolish.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
When xenos necromancy returns a great hero of the Imperium at a time of desperate need, I think it's completely in character for a Living Saint to do just that.

No it it is not! That is just insane. They hate xenos and chaos! To even suggest that the faithful would ever trust alien necromancy is blatantly absurd.

After all, the Emperor is nearly explicitly stated as using raw Chaos power to create the Primarchs. Having a vestige of the Emperor's power condone such an action makes perfect sense.

Oh sure. So living saints are now cool with chaos too. I'm sure the plague zombie Creed will be the next High Lord.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
When xenos necromancy returns a great hero of the Imperium at a time of desperate need, I think it's completely in character for a Living Saint to do just that.

No it it is not! That is just insane. They hate xenos and chaos! To even suggest that the faithful would ever trust alien necromancy is blatantly absurd.

Celestine disagrees.

After all, the Emperor is nearly explicitly stated as using raw Chaos power to create the Primarchs. Having a vestige of the Emperor's power condone such an action makes perfect sense.

Oh sure. So living saints are now cool with chaos too.

I'd suggest reading up on it. The wider Imperium might not be aware, but the Emperor strongly demonstrated his willingness to use "heretical" sciences - I think a Living Saint might very well be aware of this fact, what with being a conduit of his power.

I'm sure the plague zombie Creed will be the next High Lord.

There's a very big difference between the two.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Aestas wrote:This is a setting where having a somewhat strong claim to being a physical descendant of the Emperor (Sensei) wouldn't be enough to save you from a pyre

It's also a setting where the Emperor is venerated as a god, may very well *be* a god because of said worship, and almost anything directly linked to him is blindly venerated. This is a setting where the shells of bolter rounds are treated as sacred relics, where the very ground Space Marines walk upon is worshipped by the Imperial citizenry, where the Primarchs themselves are idolised in myth and legend across the Imperium, where the word of the Emperor's most trusted and sacred guardians is law.

The Imperium is a massively suspicious and sometimes actively detrimental to itself, but it is also incredibly hidebound in it's religious doctrine and veneration of the Emperor. Simply focusing on "the Imperium would never trust anyone" and ignoring "the Imperium is immensely devoted to the Emperor and his sons" is missing a great deal of why the Imperium is such a complex entity, and why Guilliman actually is in a pretty ironic situation: he is probably only so loved and accepted, so above suspicion by the masses BECAUSE of the church he seeks to abolish.

I get where you are coming from, and you are spot on on the last part when it comes to his followers, but I find that you miss how most religious institutions and/or ingrained systems of faith realistically functions :-) The return of a pivotal character such a Robbie just (in my eyes) couldn't go over without conflict. And we know religious schisms isn't above the Imperial Cult.

 Aestas wrote:
I get where you are coming from, and you are spot on on the last part, but I find that you miss how most religious institutions and/or ingrained systems of faith realistically functions :-)

In our world, where there isn't one single religion, and plenty of atheists, agnostics, and freedom of information/opinion is largely permitted, such differences work. In the Imperium, where there is far less in the way of difference in faith (despite minor cultural differences and interpretations in various worlds), I don't think that a Primarch returning with the blessing of a Living Saint and the uppermost Imperial authority supporting his claim being accepted by almost the entire civilian populace is unreasonable.

It's not that religious schism is impossible, but that with the current circumstances, I don't think it would happen on a large scale here.