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Crimson, are you trolling at this point? 90% of your posts can be read as “tongue in cheek”, which is how I’ve been reading them. If I’m wrong, and you’re serious...it’s a game setting, dude. It’s not real world politics. Now all hail Robo-Guil! Supreme overlord of your tabletop soul!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Celestine disagrees.

Yes, because GWs terrible writing has ruined the setting.

I'd suggest reading up on it. The wider Imperium might not be aware, but the Emperor strongly demonstrated his willingness to use "heretical" sciences - I think a Living Saint might very well be aware of this fact, what with being a conduit of his power.

If Living Saints would actually know what Emperor has done and what he truly is the whole fething Ecclesiarchy would have collapsed ages ago. You seriously think it is good idea to write it so that the Living Saints, the icons of Imperial Creed and foremost of the fanatical Sisters of Battle are OK with xenos necromancy and chaos? You really think this is good writing? Unfething believable.

There's a very big difference between the two.

There is not. An imperial hero resurrected by a hated foe via blasphemous magic. And if GW wrote it you would be here defending how it makes perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crimson, are you trolling at this point? 90% of your posts can be read as “tongue in cheek”, which is how I’ve been reading them. If I’m wrong, and you’re serious...it’s a game setting, dude. It’s not real world politics. Now all hail Robo-Guil! Supreme overlord of your tabletop soul!

I am as serious as the topic warrants.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:It could easily be a lie that he came out of stasis rather than some lab especially if you don't live in Ultramar and you had people saying his wounds weren't healing like Marneus Calgar, who would know better than anyone. Not believing he's the real Guilliman is very plausible and to be honest more believable.

Potentially, but when many of the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium, Living Saints, and Custodians are all personally vouching for him being The Real Deal, who are you going to believe - someone who was never there, or the people who were?

Crimson wrote:Did you forget the Xenos Necromancer? The vile aliens have desecrated the tomb of a beloved mythic hero, and with their foul sorcery made his corpse into their zombie puppet! This is the ultimate blasphemy! Death to the xenos, death to the heretics who consort with the xenos!

If they knew about Yraine's involvement, then they'd also know that Celestine explicitly gave her blessing. Who wants to call a Living Saint, a proven miracle worker, a heretic?

When a Living Saint, arguably one of the strongest and purest forms of the Emperor's Divine Will Made Manifest, gives her blessing, I think any Imperial citizen would trust that over anything else.

Don't forget - we know about Yraine's involvement. Hive gangers on Random Planet 513 don't. IIRC, we don't even know if other High Lords know, but even if so, for them to exclaim heresy for use of xenotech would be massively hypocritical for many - I'm sure several have "exotic" personal collections of their own.

You know what another word for people who were there is? Collaborators. I'm not saying that people who say that Guilliman is a puppet are rational but they can easily deny it. People in the real world think the Earth is flat despite the evidence to the contrary, is it so hard to believe that a bunch of people in a dystopian universe could just deny all evidence and claim that whats basically one of gods children is a fake?

They could, but they are all raised in faith that focuses on mysticism, miracles and the idea that emps has direct influence on the world. They are, very much so, not taught critical thinking. Accepting that the Son of Emperor, the Savior Of Imperium, has risen from his slumber at the time of greatest need is much easier than going against your creed and doubting.

I agree with where you are coming from here but it sounds like the same complaint I have with the idea that the Imperium hates Psykers soooooo much, yet they openly worship one of the most powerful ever. And they know he was too. Its not like they didn't realize it, they just ignore it.

 Haasbioroid wrote:


I agree with where you are coming from here but it sounds like the same complaint I have with the idea that the Imperium hates Psykers soooooo much, yet they openly worship one of the most powerful ever. And they know he was too. Its not like they didn't realize it, they just ignore it.

And Jesus was a Jew, didn't stop the church from occasionally enchouraging anti-semitism in the past.


as for Gulliman, look, when a powerful ruler is opposed (and Gulliman is clearly powerful) it's a bit differant from what epople expect, the oppisition keeps to the shadows, slowly working to build their case, assmble allies etc. and I garentee you thats whats going on with Gulliman's rivals. they exist but rearing up and screaming "pure the heretic" isn't going to do anything but get them killed. Is Gulliman opposed? Yes, but I suspect the oppisition takes the form of a shadow war. with assasins and spies attempting to gain various things for factions etc. and frankly this makes for a more intreasting story (granted it's the type of thing you'd need a BL novel for as the 40k codices and campaign settings never do a good job at depicting these things and rarely even try) then "cardinal tim declares gulliman a heretic and launches a civil war!"

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Celestine disagrees.

Yes, because GWs terrible writing has ruined the setting.

I'd suggest reading up on it. The wider Imperium might not be aware, but the Emperor strongly demonstrated his willingness to use "heretical" sciences - I think a Living Saint might very well be aware of this fact, what with being a conduit of his power.

If Living Saints would actually know what Emperor has done and what he truly is the whole fething Ecclesiarchy would have collapsed ages ago. You seriously think it is good idea to write it so that the Living Saints, the icons of Imperial Creed and foremost of the fanatical Sisters of Battle are OK with xenos necromancy and chaos? You really think this is good writing? Unfucking believable.

There's a very big difference between the two.

There is not. An imperial hero resurrected by a hated foe via blasphemous magic. And if GW wrote it you would be here defending how it makes perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crimson, are you trolling at this point? 90% of your posts can be read as “tongue in cheek”, which is how I’ve been reading them. If I’m wrong, and you’re serious...it’s a game setting, dude. It’s not real world politics. Now all hail Robo-Guil! Supreme overlord of your tabletop soul!

I am as serious as the topic warrants.

Ah, ok, yes then. Continue having your fun. Carry on people, he isn’t serious. But go nuts with torches and pitchforks!!

I am serious about the points I'm making. The seriousness of the exact form the argument takes might be another matter.

Instead of arguing over what had happened in lore, you should all be saying that nothing of this could had happened in a first place.

Just wait till I will get to w40k universe. I will be slapping greater demons and pulling entire legions of even superior super space marines!