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 Overread wrote:
ask themselves if a smoke is REALLY worth their pay cheque

Going the money route could be worth doing anyway. Someone who takes a lot of smoke breaks at work is smoking a lot - when I still puffed nicotine it was at least 50 packs a month. That's a serious amount of money you could use for something else, if someone happened to point it out to you...

Spetulhu wrote:

 Overread wrote:
ask themselves if a smoke is REALLY worth their pay cheque

Going the money route could be worth doing anyway. Someone who takes a lot of smoke breaks at work is smoking a lot - when I still puffed nicotine it was at least 50 packs a month. That's a serious amount of money you could use for something else, if someone happened to point it out to you...

...they won't change a bit. They never do. They know darn well how much they're spending on their addiction and they don't care at all. Well, they DO care; they wish they could feed their addiction cheaper, not that they could give up their addiction.

 Vulcan wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Overread wrote:
ask themselves if a smoke is REALLY worth their pay cheque

Going the money route could be worth doing anyway. Someone who takes a lot of smoke breaks at work is smoking a lot - when I still puffed nicotine it was at least 50 packs a month. That's a serious amount of money you could use for something else, if someone happened to point it out to you...

They won't change a bit. They never do. They know darn well how much they're spending on their addiction and they don't care at all. Well, they DO care; they wish they could feed their addiction cheaper, not that they could give up their addiction.

It will vary person to person. Many habits and addictions start out quite casual and light on the wallet. They might smoke only once a week if that. Then the habit/addiction grows and grows and at some point they go past a point of really paying attention to what and when they are spending to feed it. As a result they can end up spending way more than they actually realise in a period of time on their habit. This is especially true for a legal cheap one such as smoking because the product is easily and casually sold and whilst its not super-cheap its not cripplingly expensive.

Sometimes a display of volume - "this is how many you smoke a month" and "this is how much you spend a month" can be quite a shock to them. In addition it can be a contributing factor in helping people turn things around. I've read a good few stories where people have started a new hobby or interest or such and used that as a saving target as they start to give up smoking.


A warhammer example would be instead of smoking a pack a day they'd save up and get a box of models a week or somesuch. Suddenly they are getting a tangible reward for their effort in quitting.


Of course this is all part of quitting and its rare that one element pushes a person to stop; often its a culmination of elements that add together .

 Overread wrote:
Sometimes a display of volume - "this is how many you smoke a month" and "this is how much you spend a month" can be quite a shock to them.

Exactly so, and that's one reason I decided enough is enough. We have higher taxes on smokes and alcohol here in Finland than in the USA, of course, but for people in low-paying jobs it's still a drain to keep themself with cigarrettes. My old habit at present-day prices for my preferred brand would be fifty packs at 7.70€ each every month - that's 385€ every month going up in smoke!

For comparison I pay less than that on my mortgage every month, and insurance for my car is less per year.

Fire them all. Replace them with robots named Marvin.

Your employees are engaging in a "habit" through one means or another they chose which they seem to expect you to pay for.
In the interests of "humoring" them, only you can choose what you are willing to put up with for employee retention and yet be fair to those who do not have the habit.

Ensure the door to outside has a camera aimed at it (outside or inside, your call)
Tell employees it is both for their safety and if needed, to investigate abuse of the courtesy.
Messing with the camera will be a suspension.

Set the smoke break intervals as you see fit and extend the same to the non-smokers.
Really, no smoke break should occur sooner than an hour between breaks.

For added fun, shield the washroom from cell/wireless signals, it will ensure short washroom breaks.
A camera in the washroom (not looking into the stalls!!!) could also help with prevention of vaping there, ensure a clear view of the top of the stall.
Or at the very least, a camera that views the door to the washroom.
Again a means to make employees aware that "abuse" can be checked and the evidence used for discipline or dismissal.

I used to smoke a long while back.
It was not easy but I chose to quit and I am quite shocked how much time some people treat as their right to take breaks.
What is funny is during College I worked as a waiter at a roadhouse and it was a tough job, I quit smoking before that and was happy about it: the owner treated it as his right to be abusive to those who went on smoke breaks and was constantly threatening to dock their pay.

A compromise that is painful is have employees punch in and out for any breaks... it really depends on how hostile or entitled people get.

No idea if the law allows for this where you are, but as a smoker myself, take it out of their lunch break.

And if they kick up a fuss, increase everyone’s break time by say, 15 minutes.

Smokers can factor in their breaks (pre- approved, with rules such as ‘if we’re busy, tough’), and non-smokers can have an extra 15 minute refresher break, or a longer lunch.

 Vulcan wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Overread wrote:
ask themselves if a smoke is REALLY worth their pay cheque

Going the money route could be worth doing anyway. Someone who takes a lot of smoke breaks at work is smoking a lot - when I still puffed nicotine it was at least 50 packs a month. That's a serious amount of money you could use for something else, if someone happened to point it out to you...

...they won't change a bit. They never do. They know darn well how much they're spending on their addiction and they don't care at all. Well, they DO care; they wish they could feed their addiction cheaper, not that they could give up their addiction.

As a slight aside here, I was once getting groceries when the woman in front of me started to pay. She maxed out her EBT card and had to pay for the rest in cash, and she didn't have enough. Instead of giving up her carton of cigs she had her kid put back all the milk. This makes me mad on several levels. First, how dare someone put their smoking habit ahead of their children's nutrition. Also, if someone can afford a smoking habit they obviously need less assistance.

Yeah, I changed my mind.

Go ahead and take legal advice from dangerously unqualified people.

Good luck.

Dude, what the hell? Did you read anywhere in the thread where he said "Hey, I'm enacting yoru plan and completely disregarding local law." in any post? No? Then what is the point of your post?

It does exactly what it says on the tin.

 cuda1179 wrote:
As a slight aside here, I was once getting groceries when the woman in front of me started to pay. She maxed out her EBT card and had to pay for the rest in cash, and she didn't have enough. Instead of giving up her carton of cigs she had her kid put back all the milk. This makes me mad on several levels. First, how dare someone put their smoking habit ahead of their children's nutrition. Also, if someone can afford a smoking habit they obviously need less assistance.

Are poor people really poor if they have refrigerators?

What's the point of this thread even? You asked for advise, you got it, many people advised you shouldn't really be asking for legal advice on a wargaming forum, and now we're at the "made-up analogies to back up my political leanings" phase, which means that this whole thread - a thinly disguised rant masquerading as soliciting advice - really should have been put on your Facebook where it belonged from the beginning instead of here.

Somewhat unrelated, I have been surprised by the rise of the "Smoke Shop" in many small towns. They seem to be a pretty viable business model as the small towns I frequent seem to be able to support 1 smoke shop per 10K people. I am pretty sure none of these places are doing well economically based on the census data I have used to create business plans. Yet somehow, these smoke shops seem to be able to stay in business.

 Easy E wrote:
Somewhat unrelated, I have been surprised by the rise of the "Smoke Shop" in many small towns. I am pretty sure none of these places are doing well economically based on the census data I have used to create business plans.

Quite a lot of small businesses are started not because of a good plan but because it looks like easy money for someone giving it his first try. Or it's a play for taking out as much cash as you can while it lasts. Or small-scale money laundering. Something like 90% of new bars over here fold within a few weeks after the government subsidy for starting a new business runs out. Some others are serial businesses, folding and founded again by the next family member when the aid runs out. Real professionals use shell companies, always staying a few companies away from the debt and tax collectors while moving the money to themself.

And some people just enjoy being the boss, even if it's a one-man business that barely makes a profit.

Not that this really has much to do with smoking/vaping at work, of course. Apologies.

 Ouze wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
As a slight aside here, I was once getting groceries when the woman in front of me started to pay. She maxed out her EBT card and had to pay for the rest in cash, and she didn't have enough. Instead of giving up her carton of cigs she had her kid put back all the milk. This makes me mad on several levels. First, how dare someone put their smoking habit ahead of their children's nutrition. Also, if someone can afford a smoking habit they obviously need less assistance.

Are poor people really poor if they have refrigerators?

What's the point of this thread even? You asked for advise, you got it, many people advised you shouldn't really be asking for legal advice on a wargaming forum, and now we're at the "made-up analogies to back up my political leanings" phase, which means that this whole thread - a thinly disguised rant masquerading as soliciting advice - really should have been put on your Facebook where it belonged from the beginning instead of here.

I never asked for legal advice. I can't believe that I need to state that AGAIN. This thread wasn't started for legal advice, nor was it limited to that. A discussion on the topic can evolve to envelope the nuances of a situation you know.

You did.

It's impossible to respond to the OP without giving legal advice.

You opened your post by explaining the legal requirements of smoking distances from a business in your state. Then you asked for 3 different options for covering break time, which is unquestionably and inarguably a question about employment law.

"What kind of dog is best for living in an apartment? Also, I'm not looking for answers about dogs."

 Ouze wrote:
You opened your post by explaining the legal requirements of smoking distances from a business in your state. Then you asked for 3 different options for covering break time, which is unquestionably and inarguably a question about employment law.

"What kind of dog is best for living in an apartment? Also, I'm not looking for answers about dogs."

That's, just like, your opinion man.


Just because you think something is "unquestionable and inarguable" doesn't make it so, especially when there is a glaringly OBVIOUS counter explanation. Did the concept of "In regards to certain legal requirements and social norms would any of the following rules be social faux pas?" completely go over your head?

And even if that had been the initial question asked the discussion evolved from there and branched out. Removed - Rule #1 please

The law sets a minimum standard, it could well be OP wants to go beyond that minimum and was interested in hearing the experiences and opinions of other posters?

Trying to shut down the topic completely on the basis that some of it has relation to law is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I was actually trying to stop the OP from enacting a hare-brained scheme they read about on Dakka and getting hauled into the dock by his (former) employees.

I read the OP as looking for suggestions, which he could then research compared to local laws?

Hence how I couched my concept of taking smoke breaks out of standard break times, but extending the break times for all employees, so nobody loses out and the onus is firmly placed upon the dirty smokers like wot I r.

I would also caution against doing your own legal research, if you have no training.

It is entirely possible to acquit yourself well in such circumstances, but it is far from probable.

There's definitely two parts to this thread. I think the OP has been warned enough that they should seek legal advice before making any major changes. But the second part of this discussion is about gauging what people's opinions are, which I think is a pretty responsible and intelligent step to take in the OP's case.

Some folks argue it's a better alternative to smoking, while others point to the concerning cases tied to vaping. It's a valid concern that cheap, unregulated products can be risky.

BrianDavion wrote:
.. they're smoking in a returant? ewwwwwww that's disgusting.

My first thought as well.

If I ran a business like that, being a non-smoker would be an absolute prerequisite for getting a job there.

My first thought is why are we necromancing a thread that is four years old...