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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Imo any model special character should be postumous.

The issue revolves around the characters having money sunk into their miniatures and thus people being invested in the character's ongoing story.

If they are historical or postumous you could use them however you wanted without needing them to stay alive.

For a while Eldrad was postumous. Macharius was also postumous
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord






Outside of their proper novels (and even there, you have to be picky) I haven't seen good story/IP/fluff/lore come out of anything from Games Workshop in years. The entire Vigilus series was...well, fething dreadful when it came to storyline. The pieces of PA that I have read have been superficial drivel.

The feeling of "we're pumping out boring crap to make money" is extremely strong in every thing I'm seeing lately. You can feel the "must sell the following kits" just oozing out of every paragraph and sentence. Ham-fisted confrontations taking place solely because X and Y armies came up on the model release schedule and thus they have to be crammed into a conflict regardless of where/why, etc. etc. etc.

Codex writing and material has become steadily worse and worse since 2nd edition (probably still the high water mark for quality of writing/story/plot, etc.).

 
   
Made in jp
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

Maaaaan. Remember those cool teaser trailers with the Inquisitor and the spooky Eldar guy?

I was SO hyped for that. I thought there was gonna be some kind of wild narrative-follows-a-group-of-named-characters-through-various-warzones kinda deal, maybe add a few new characters for neglected factions pursuing them, and generally get a bit deeper into 40k than previously, as with vigilus, which was as far as I was concerned, kind of a re-hash of dark imperium with it's chaos vs imperium matchup + some other xenos. I really loved those teasers, and it feels like such a waste that they simply dropped them, with no comment about what they meant, especially with the whole "what is Psychic Awakening?" article that seems to be a meek response to how much it's been getting panned by fans.
Instead, we've been getting a Space Marine victory lap, more primaris marines and "oh crap, we make alien models, too?!!?!".

   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

I just finished reading my copy of Ritual of the Damned, and the background was pretty damned banal I have to say, and there wasn't any artwork that caught my eye. I was also disappointed to find only a single battle scenario. I feel like I just paid EUR 35 for litanies, and combat doctrines, and some Primaris data sheets that I'm not going to use. As a narrative driven player, I'm feeling a bit of buyer's remorse now. :(

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/14 09:54:16


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




They already said in their own articles the PA books are codex upgrades for the factions. They simply lied about PA being a campaign or really story driven event. It was simply about selling power to shift books, that is all. The cake is a lie.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Ginjitzu wrote:
I just finished reading my copy of Ritual of the Damned, and the background was pretty damned banal I have to say, and there wasn't any artwork that caught my eye. I was also disappointed to find only a single battle scenario. I feel like I just paid EUR 35 for litanies, and combat doctrines, and some Primaris data sheets that I'm not going to use. As a narrative driven player, I'm feeling a bit of buyer's remorse now. :(


Their narrative atm makes me wish for a nuclear winter.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Hellebore wrote:
Imo any model special character should be postumous.

This. A hundred times this.

Give us a new Ragnar Blackmane model and at the end of Saga of the Beast, have Ghazghkull KILL HIM ! That would actually make these damn books worth reading. Honestly, I haven't read anything interesting from GW for at least 10 years, maybe more. Eldrad dying was somewhat surprising and cool, but of course it was retconned....

I want some bad guys winning ffs, because this is all getting REALLY stale.

Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 Nym wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
Imo any model special character should be postumous.

This. A hundred times this.

Give us a new Ragnar Blackmane model and at the end of Saga of the Beast, have Ghazghkull KILL HIM ! That would actually make these damn books worth reading. Honestly, I haven't read anything interesting from GW for at least 10 years, maybe more. Eldrad dying was somewhat surprising and cool, but of course it was retconned....

I want some bad guys winning ffs, because this is all getting REALLY stale.


Sadly, it seems like the only guys they're willing to kill are models OOP, as the recent DA Primaris Captain replaced Balthasar who was the original DA captain of that company who technically had a model in Dark Vengeance. Outside of that though, sadly we're in a state of 40k limbo for most SC's, which they have a ready made excuse with the f'ed up timeflow thanks to the Great Rift.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Reread the eldar PA book today to see if my original theory was right.

It was.

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, I bought the books for the rules not the fluff.
The fluff seems to be a bit unimaginative.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

It just feels like no thought is being put into the lore-side of the entire series. There are no proper stakes, and no changes, just some WWWF style fights that lead nowhere. Except for a few rules I get from each book I have buyer's remorse from start to finish.

At least I can name all my models now...

Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







Hellebore wrote:
Imo any model special character should be postumous.

The issue revolves around the characters having money sunk into their miniatures and thus people being invested in the character's ongoing story.

If they are historical or postumous you could use them however you wanted without needing them to stay alive.

For a while Eldrad was postumous. Macharius was also postumous

Posthumous, man, not postumous.

*shudder*

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Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Eldarsif wrote:
It just feels like no thought is being put into the lore-side of the entire series. There are no proper stakes, and no changes, just some WWWF style fights that lead nowhere. Except for a few rules I get from each book I have buyer's remorse from start to finish.

At least I can name all my models now...


yeah I mean if the lore was intreasting and good I'd happily buy the PA books for armies I don't have, but the lore is just weak

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 Nym wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
Imo any model special character should be postumous.

This. A hundred times this.

Give us a new Ragnar Blackmane model and at the end of Saga of the Beast, have Ghazghkull KILL HIM ! That would actually make these damn books worth reading. Honestly, I haven't read anything interesting from GW for at least 10 years, maybe more. Eldrad dying was somewhat surprising and cool, but of course it was retconned....

I want some bad guys winning ffs, because this is all getting REALLY stale.


For all the fantastic writing GW have done over the years, the unbeatable plot armour of SC's frequently undermines it all. How many more times does Calgar need to be "on the brink of death" ?


"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 1700 | 3600 | 2100 | 550

 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Its a shame GW haven't taken the opportunity to kill off more of the special characters that have old or outdated models. Or at least done something interesting with them, like have them revolt or something. I remember at the start of 8th I wondered if Calgar would become embittered by daddy returning and taking all responsibility and glory away from him. Of course he didn't. He lined up for his Primaris upscaling and was happy to feature in a minor conflict Bobby couldn't be arsed to deal with.

Thinking aloud - the SW fan base would likely revolt if Ragnar was actually killed and removed from the fluff in the next PA. And therein lies the problem. Most people would like to see story progression, until it means their favourite character bites the bullet.

I mean, regardless of PA fluff, in the current lore and most recent timeline, shouldn't pretty much every IG character have died of old age if nothing else? I mean 'Sly Marbo' could be a moniker that a badass Catachan chooses to take up (if they have to keep him around) and Yarrick is basically an Ork so he will only die when they let him die. How are some of these other geriatrics still going?

Ultimately I think GW have misplaced 'progressing the timeline' with 'progressing the story/setting' and they seem confused on whether 40k is a setting or a story first. The only notable difference in the current 40k setting is the fact that Bobby G has returned and that's a stretch.

The setting and the overarching plot is still exactly the same as before the Great Rift. Humanity still exists in a careless, callous Imperium that's still 'one second to midnight'. Daemons still appear. Orks still WAAAAGGGHH! The Tau are still a young and naive race. The Eldar are still either perverts or virtually extinct. The Necrons are still waking up. The Tyranids are still just tendrils of something larger. Even the main players on stage are the same. Hasn't the timeline moved like hundreds of years (or is it thousands?) and GW didn't even have the cahones to kill off those characters that should have died anyways. They'd rather invent these stupid rationales for why these players are still on stage and haven't simply perished from old age. That should've told us all we need to know about how willing GW are to progress the 40k story and/or setting.
   
Made in us
Captain





LA

40k fluff has consistently gone downhill IMO for some time, I think it initially started with the change from necrons into space tomb kings (was mat ward to thank for that?). And then the cawl and primaris debacle made things worse. Only Necromunda and specialist games is consistently putting out great lore. I pretty much love everything about the re imagined Necromunda from its aesthetics to a new take on all the original gangs.

 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Spoiler:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its a shame GW haven't taken the opportunity to kill off more of the special characters that have old or outdated models. Or at least done something interesting with them, like have them revolt or something. I remember at the start of 8th I wondered if Calgar would become embittered by daddy returning and taking all responsibility and glory away from him. Of course he didn't. He lined up for his Primaris upscaling and was happy to feature in a minor conflict Bobby couldn't be arsed to deal with.

Thinking aloud - the SW fan base would likely revolt if Ragnar was actually killed and removed from the fluff in the next PA. And therein lies the problem. Most people would like to see story progression, until it means their favourite character bites the bullet.

I mean, regardless of PA fluff, in the current lore and most recent timeline, shouldn't pretty much every IG character have died of old age if nothing else? I mean 'Sly Marbo' could be a moniker that a badass Catachan chooses to take up (if they have to keep him around) and Yarrick is basically an Ork so he will only die when they let him die. How are some of these other geriatrics still going?

Ultimately I think GW have misplaced 'progressing the timeline' with 'progressing the story/setting' and they seem confused on whether 40k is a setting or a story first. The only notable difference in the current 40k setting is the fact that Bobby G has returned and that's a stretch.

The setting and the overarching plot is still exactly the same as before the Great Rift. Humanity still exists in a careless, callous Imperium that's still 'one second to midnight'. Daemons still appear. Orks still WAAAAGGGHH! The Tau are still a young and naive race. The Eldar are still either perverts or virtually extinct. The Necrons are still waking up. The Tyranids are still just tendrils of something larger. Even the main players on stage are the same. Hasn't the timeline moved like hundreds of years (or is it thousands?) and GW didn't even have the cahones to kill off those characters that should have died anyways. They'd rather invent these stupid rationales for why these players are still on stage and haven't simply perished from old age. That should've told us all we need to know about how willing GW are to progress the 40k story and/or setting.


I guess you hit the nail on the head.
in way though i think it is worse. it's the same stalemate we had before except supposedly even worse. ( i honestly think they should've killed off abbadon and replaced him with any other of the runners up.Huron is just more capable in many ways.)

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in ie
Preacher of the Emperor





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
How are some of these other geriatrics still going?


Juvenat treatments. If you can afford it people in the Imperium can live for hundreds of years. Ciaphas Cain is about 200 but looks like hes in his 40s or 50s.

 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its a shame GW haven't taken the opportunity to kill off more of the special characters that have old or outdated models. Or at least done something interesting with them, like have them revolt or something. I remember at the start of 8th I wondered if Calgar would become embittered by daddy returning and taking all responsibility and glory away from him. Of course he didn't. He lined up for his Primaris upscaling and was happy to feature in a minor conflict Bobby couldn't be arsed to deal with.

Thinking aloud - the SW fan base would likely revolt if Ragnar was actually killed and removed from the fluff in the next PA. And therein lies the problem. Most people would like to see story progression, until it means their favourite character bites the bullet.

I mean, regardless of PA fluff, in the current lore and most recent timeline, shouldn't pretty much every IG character have died of old age if nothing else? I mean 'Sly Marbo' could be a moniker that a badass Catachan chooses to take up (if they have to keep him around) and Yarrick is basically an Ork so he will only die when they let him die. How are some of these other geriatrics still going?


I think an even more pressing question for them (and many others) is 'how have they not died from some stray bullet or artillery shell or orbital laser or Tyranid plague or by damage/destruction of the spacecraft that was transporting them etc.?'

I know that some characters in 40k have effective immortality by some means or other but many - especially the human ones - don't.

I don't think you can have a grimdark setting where every named character has impenetrable plot-armour.

Akiasura wrote:
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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its a shame GW haven't taken the opportunity to kill off more of the special characters that have old or outdated models.


So let's start with Ghazghkull, Mad Dok Grotsnik, Badrukk, Zagstrukk and Snikrot - all fall under at least the "old" model category, for given values of old, and last I checked Orks didn't have an equivalent of rejuvenat to keep people alive.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 Dysartes wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its a shame GW haven't taken the opportunity to kill off more of the special characters that have old or outdated models.


So let's start with Ghazghkull, Mad Dok Grotsnik, Badrukk, Zagstrukk and Snikrot - all fall under at least the "old" model category, for given values of old, and last I checked Orks didn't have an equivalent of rejuvenat to keep people alive.


Orks don't die of old age, they just keep growing stronger until killed.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Guardsman with Flashlight




Omaha, NE

You all hit upon the reason they should never have allowed named pre-made characters to be playable.
It used to require both players to agree to use those named guys.
They cant sell the special over priced figs if they die, so they wont die. Thus 40k becomes Hero hammer, heros never die.

Have played 40k since they were called the Imperial Army. 6k IG 10k Nids 2k GSC 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




It is not peoples foult that GW writes bad rules for non special characters for some books.
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Dysartes wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its a shame GW haven't taken the opportunity to kill off more of the special characters that have old or outdated models.


So let's start with Ghazghkull, Mad Dok Grotsnik, Badrukk, Zagstrukk and Snikrot - all fall under at least the "old" model category, for given values of old, and last I checked Orks didn't have an equivalent of rejuvenat to keep people alive.

I think you missed my point. I'm not so much bothered by the fact that the 'normal' human characters have survived for so long in the setting. I'm more bothered by the fact that if GW keep telling the same story, in the same setting, with the same characters, nothing has changed. Like at all.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 Dysartes wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its a shame GW haven't taken the opportunity to kill off more of the special characters that have old or outdated models.


So let's start with Ghazghkull, Mad Dok Grotsnik, Badrukk, Zagstrukk and Snikrot - all fall under at least the "old" model category, for given values of old, and last I checked Orks didn't have an equivalent of rejuvenat to keep people alive.

Snikrot was actually killed of in a White Dwarf battle report (Battle of Glazer's Creek II).

I fully expect GW to ignore the fact that they did that, but still...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/17 19:45:32


 
   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its a shame GW haven't taken the opportunity to kill off more of the special characters that have old or outdated models.


So let's start with Ghazghkull, Mad Dok Grotsnik, Badrukk, Zagstrukk and Snikrot - all fall under at least the "old" model category, for given values of old, and last I checked Orks didn't have an equivalent of rejuvenat to keep people alive.

Snikrot was actually killed of in a White Dwarf battle report (Battle of Glazer's Creek II).

I fully expect GW to ignore the fact that they did that, but still...

"Boss" Snikrot seems very alive according to the last Ork codex. But did Glazer's Creek come after it?
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






Why are people so surprised that the Imperium wins? They are the defacto "good guys" in the story.

Do people really look at 40K as being some kind of high class science fiction? It's Marvel Comics in space at best, Saturday morning cartoons at worst. Neither of which is bad by the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Its a shame GW haven't taken the opportunity to kill off more of the special characters that have old or outdated models.


So let's start with Ghazghkull, Mad Dok Grotsnik, Badrukk, Zagstrukk and Snikrot - all fall under at least the "old" model category, for given values of old, and last I checked Orks didn't have an equivalent of rejuvenat to keep people alive.

I think you missed my point. I'm not so much bothered by the fact that the 'normal' human characters have survived for so long in the setting. I'm more bothered by the fact that if GW keep telling the same story, in the same setting, with the same characters, nothing has changed. Like at all.


When I started playing the game, it had basically been the same story for decades. Black Crusade = Fail, return to stage one and plan the next one.

Now we have primarchs returned, the galaxy is split in half. Hundreds of worlds have been lost, whole chapters were wiped out to the last man. We have new technology, new marines and old foes. The Eldar are changing and following a new banner and god.

Seems new and fresh to me. Again, don't look at 40K as some glorious A+++ quality scifi. It's cartoons at best. Enjoy it for what it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/17 20:24:39


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Togusa wrote:
Why are people so surprised that the Imperium wins? They are the defacto "good guys" in the story.

Do people really look at 40K as being some kind of high class science fiction? It's Marvel Comics in space at best, Saturday morning cartoons at worst. Neither of which is bad by the way.
.


No I look at it as a game setting where the company sells you a faction of that setting and advertises them as all on an equal footing.

You can't have it both ways. It's either a setting where each faction is a threat and you have genuine neutral choice, or it's a narrative with protagonists and everyone else are mooks to kill.

So long as GW are honest in how they sell you the game I dont really care which one is true. But they have to choose because at the moment it's being developed as a narrative and sold as a setting.


   
Made in gb
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Hellebore wrote:
So long as GW are honest in how they sell you the game I dont really care which one is true. But they have to choose because at the moment it's being developed as a narrative and sold as a setting.

I don't think GW know what they want to sell the game as, genuinely. They go from pushing the setting to the narrative back to the setting again so quickly it's hard to keep up. It's like they want to be masters of both without realising that in mastering one they forgo the other.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





that or they're just doing incremental changes in the setting with story elements and don't want to massivly change everything. which is the proper way to do it. which also answers why the Imperium wins so often in the stories. the IoM is the "champion of the status quo" a win for the Imperium is a win for changes not happening to the setting. so of course they win more often then not. and the higher the stakes, the more likely the IoM is to win.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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