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 DeathReaper wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Does anyone actually play disembarked units as reinforcements?

No one should, because disembarked units are not reinforcements since the unit that is disembarking does not " have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn" There is nothing in any unit's abilities that allow them to disembark from a transport.

Those rules are in the base rules, and as such not an ability of any specific unit.

Also the reinforcement rules say "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" Which is not the case for disembarking units.

Further proof that disembarking does not count for reinforcements.

Sure it does, because the disembarking rule gives you an explicit exception that allows disembarking units to still be activated for a move, which overrides the general restriction for reinforcements.


And the reinforcement rule (different from tactical reserves) also highlights how some reinforcements may set up in other phases or mid-phase (e.g. Da Jump, Yncarne, etc..)

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Spoiler:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Does anyone actually play disembarked units as reinforcements?

No one should, because disembarked units are not reinforcements since the unit that is disembarking does not " have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn" There is nothing in any unit's abilities that allow them to disembark from a transport.

Those rules are in the base rules, and as such not an ability of any specific unit.

Also the reinforcement rules say "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" Which is not the case for disembarking units.

Further proof that disembarking does not count for reinforcements.

Sure it does, because the disembarking rule gives you an explicit exception that allows disembarking units to still be activated for a move, which overrides the general restriction for reinforcements.

False, but it does not matter, as a unit that is embarked can never be reinforcements because an embarked unit does not have a rule that allows it to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
... But to be "counted as" reinforcements you simply need to be off the table and then set up mid turn. That's it...

This is false as my rules quotes have proven.

This is why i was saying with Celestine because in CA19 and earlier her rules did say "set up". But i don;t play sisters so if the current codex states "return to play" then yeah she isn't being set up.

which is irrelevant as Celestine does not have a rule that gives her "the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn" So she can never be reinforcements even if her rule did say set up.

This is where BCB and P5 are coming from. Because units in transports do unfortunately RAW classify for the vague reinforcements rule. They are not yet on the table and arrive mid turn by being "set up".

They come from a false place though. The unit that is set up needs to have a rule allowing them to be set up for them to qualify as reinforcements.

So this is one of those things if you see your opponent has infiltrators maybe discuss before hand if you have any revive abilities that are "set up" or transports. It's up to the both of you if you wanna play strictly to RAW like BCB. Nothing wrong with that same as nothing wrong with going, "that's stupid, RAI is clear they don't fall to that". If you don't think your gunna have a fun game with your opponent then it's simple don;t play them.

Again, Strict RAW for transports does not interact with Omni-Scramblers at all as my rules quotes have proven.

Units are not reinforcements. This is backed up by the FAQ's on things like Auspex scan, and the fact that units in transports DO NOT count towards the tactical reserves rule that states only 50% of your army can start in reinforcements.

Celestine is returned to play, and isn't set up.

Models in a unit EG Necrons, or models brought back by a SM Apoth are not affected either as these are MODELS not UNITS being returned to play and the rule states UNITS set-up.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
From RAW she counts as reinforcements.

You've asserted this, but I don't think you've proven it.

Aren't "Reinforcements" a specific part of the rules?

BRB page 117 wrote:REINFORCEMENTS
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

Any unit that "sets up" "mid-turn" is reinforcements, period.

 DeathReaper wrote:
They come from a false place though. The unit that is set up needs to have a rule allowing them to be set up for them to qualify as reinforcements.

Disembarking units have the transports rule which allows them to be set up mid turn, thus they are reinforcements.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
They come from a false place though. The unit that is set up needs to have a rule allowing them to be set up for them to qualify as reinforcements.

Disembarking units have the transports rule which allows them to be set up mid turn, thus they are reinforcements.

Is there a place in the rules that says that the rule that belongs to the Transport also belongs to the unit inside the transport?

If so, can a Catachan grenade launcher inside a Catachan chimera re-roll its number of hits? After all, the Transport's rule is that it can re-roll its number of hits, and since you are asserting that abilities on one unit are also apparently now abilities on a transported unit...

GW doesn't even consider a tactical squad disembarking from a droppod as reinforcements,and you guys are arguing that a squad in a rhino that started the game on the table is reinforcements. Wow.

nekooni wrote:
GW doesn't even consider a tactical squad disembarking from a droppod as reinforcements,and you guys are arguing that a squad in a rhino that started the game on the table is reinforcements. Wow.

It’s pure nonsense time, indeed.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Is there a place in the rules that says that the rule that belongs to the Transport also belongs to the unit inside the transport?

Its unclear whether the unit itself disembarks, or the transport disembarks the unit.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
If so, can a Catachan grenade launcher inside a Catachan chimera re-roll its number of hits? After all, the Transport's rule is that it can re-roll its number of hits, and since you are asserting that abilities on one unit are also apparently now abilities on a transported unit...

Unclear.

nekooni wrote:GW doesn't even consider a tactical squad disembarking from a droppod as reinforcements,and you guys are arguing that a squad in a rhino that started the game on the table is reinforcements. Wow.

GW never said units disembarking from a droppod is reinforcements, or that they arent. All they said is that a disembarking unit from a pod cant be targeted by auspex scan. You are speculating that this means they are not reinforcements.

 p5freak wrote:

nekooni wrote:GW doesn't even consider a tactical squad disembarking from a droppod as reinforcements,and you guys are arguing that a squad in a rhino that started the game on the table is reinforcements. Wow.

GW never said units disembarking from a droppod is reinforcements, or that they arent. All they said is that a disembarking unit from a pod cant be targeted by auspex scan. You are speculating that this means they are not reinforcements.

The criteria for auspex scan to work is if something was set up from reinforcements. The FAQ tells us that the squad does not meet the requirements for auspex scan to work.

nekooni wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

nekooni wrote:GW doesn't even consider a tactical squad disembarking from a droppod as reinforcements,and you guys are arguing that a squad in a rhino that started the game on the table is reinforcements. Wow.

GW never said units disembarking from a droppod is reinforcements, or that they arent. All they said is that a disembarking unit from a pod cant be targeted by auspex scan. You are speculating that this means they are not reinforcements.

The criteria for auspex scan to work is if something was set up from reinforcements. The FAQ tells us that the squad does not meet the requirements for auspex scan to work.

Special Snowflake FAQs are Special Snowflake for a reason. The FAQ applies to a SINGLE stratagem and nothing else.

 p5freak wrote:


GW never said units disembarking from a droppod is reinforcements, or that they arent. All they said is that a disembarking unit from a pod cant be targeted by auspex scan. You are speculating that this means they are not reinforcements.

It's really more than speculation. According to your claims, when they are set up on the table when disembarking they are reinforcements. Auspex scan allows reinforcements to be targeted. GW doesn't allow disembarking units to be targeted. Therefore, they can't be reinforcements as you describe.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
They come from a false place though. The unit that is set up needs to have a rule allowing them to be set up for them to qualify as reinforcements.

Disembarking units have the transports rule which allows them to be set up mid turn, thus they are reinforcements.

No, that is not a rule that the unit has, it is not on their dataslate, it is not their rule...

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BRB page 117 wrote:REINFORCEMENTS
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

Any unit that "sets up" "mid-turn" is reinforcements, period.

Of course this is false. Disembarking units do not qualify as reinforcements as they do not have a rule allowing them to be set up mid-turn.

Disembarking units are set up mid turn, that's the definition of reinforcements. There is no need for a special rule, allowing them to be set up mid turn.

 p5freak wrote:
Disembarking units are set up mid turn, that's the definition of reinforcements. There is no need for a special rule, allowing them to be set up mid turn.

This is of course false. You have given zero rules backing for your position.

The rule about reinforcements states "If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up..."

The unit that disembarks does not have a rule that causes them to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up. Indeed the embarked unit can start the game on the transport and never be removed from the battlefield at all. The reinforcements rule applies to things like Da Jump, and "Upon Wings of fire" for the Blood Angels.

40k FAQ wrote:Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield
after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers),
and are then set back up again on the battlefield?

A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the
battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following
rules apply to that unit...

P5freak - the REQUIREMENT is:

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn

Demonstrate that the embarked unit has the ability. You are required to give a quote from their data slate, as otherwise the unit lacks the ability

If you don't, you have conceded the argument. You made the claim, you have to prove it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
P5freak - the REQUIREMENT is:

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn

Many is not all. Some reinforcements have such an ability, others dont. Having such an ability is not mandatory to be reinforcements.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Demonstrate that the embarked unit has the ability. You are required to give a quote from their data slate, as otherwise the unit lacks the ability

If you don't, you have conceded the argument. You made the claim, you have to prove it.

I already have quoted the reinforcements rule, which defines reinforcements as units set up mid turn. I suggest you read what I wrote earlier.

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
P5freak - the REQUIREMENT is:

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn

Many is not all. Some reinforcements have such an ability, others dont. Having such an ability is not mandatory to be reinforcements.

Of course many does not mean all. They say "many units" because clearly they could not say all units have the ability to be... because that would imply that every unit could do it. (P.S. ALL reinforcements will have an ability like that).

Because the ones that do not can never be considered reinforcements, since they will not have that ability. (Save for a special strat etc.).

Many is just another way of saying units with the ability to be set up on etc.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Any unit that "sets up" "mid-turn" is reinforcements, period.

I don't think so Tim.

This:

"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn."

... is specifically specifically contradict by the disembarking rules:

"Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180)."

Ergo "setting up" and "disembarking" are not the same thing, and one is not a subset of another.

 DeathReaper wrote:
False, but it does not matter, as a unit that is embarked can never be reinforcements because an embarked unit does not have a rule that allows it to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn.

Eldar Wraithblades or Shining Spears put into tactical reserves using Webway Ambush have no rules that allow them to be set up on the battle mid-turn either.

Custodes put into tactical reserves using From Golden Light they come have no rules that allow them to be set up on the battle mid-turn either.

Ork Boyz subjected to Da Jump have no rules that allow them to be removed from the battlefield and set up again on the battlefield mid-turn either.

Tzaangors being affected by DMC have no rules that allow them to be removed from the battlefield and set up again on the battlefield mid-turn either.


Etc...


They are all set-up on the battlefield during the game post-deployment, hence they are reinforcements and/or trigger all abilities that interact with units arriving from reinforcements as if they were reinforcements.

They are all affected by rules external to those units, whether its a stratagem, a relic or the transport rule of a transport vehicle.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Any unit that "sets up" "mid-turn" is reinforcements, period.

I don't think so Tim.

This:

"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn."

... is specifically specifically contradict by the disembarking rules:

"Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though, that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180)."

Ergo "setting up" and "disembarking" are not the same thing, and one is not a subset of another.

There's no contradiction.

There's simply a specific rule that allows disembarking units to move, where normal reinforcements cannot. Similar to the Perfect Ambush stratagem.

Units disembarking transports are not reinforcements, see the tactical reserves rule in full.

"Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

Units set up in a transport count as being on the table. Only units not set-up on the battlefield cannot be set-up turn 1. Therefore units in transports can disembark Turn 1.

Dadavester wrote:
Units disembarking transports are not reinforcements, see the tactical reserves rule in full.

"Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

Units set up in a transport count as being on the table. Only units not set-up on the battlefield cannot be set-up turn 1. Therefore units in transports can disembark Turn 1.

I would love to agree, but even this has exceptions. Da jump and warp gate etc.

They begin turn 1, but then count as reinforcements once they use their abilities. The whole transport thing is a grey area I admit. But it has got merit to be either or purely because the of the vagueness of the reinforcements rule. It's not definitive. The only definite term to classify reinforcements is "arrive on the battlefield mid game".

To go further you have more FAQ's stating warlord abilities, aura's etc cannot be used because they are "not on the battlefield". So when they come out the transport they "arrive on the battlefield".

It's a grey area and 100% debatable. But to state it's clear is false.

I get BCB and P5 are very RAW, but that's the point they're playing devil's advocate to demonstrate how contradictory the rules can be.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
Units disembarking transports are not reinforcements, see the tactical reserves rule in full.

"Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

Units set up in a transport count as being on the table. Only units not set-up on the battlefield cannot be set-up turn 1. Therefore units in transports can disembark Turn 1.

I would love to agree, but even this has exceptions. Da jump and warp gate etc.

They begin turn 1, but then count as reinforcements once they use their abilities. The whole transport thing is a grey area I admit. But it has got merit to be either or purely because the of the vagueness of the reinforcements rule. It's not definitive. The only definite term to classify reinforcements is "arrive on the battlefield mid game".

To go further you have more FAQ's stating warlord abilities, aura's etc cannot be used because they are "not on the battlefield". So when they come out the transport they "arrive on the battlefield".

It's a grey area and 100% debatable. But to state it's clear is false.

I get BCB and P5 are very RAW, but that's the point they're playing devil's advocate to demonstrate how contradictory the rules can be.

Da Jump and such are not tactical reserves however. BCB and others are arguing that units arriving from a Transport cannot disembark Turn 1 (at least that is how i have read it). They 100% can as they are not tactical reserves. All tactical reserves count as arriving as reinforcements but not all units counting as reinforcements are tactical reserves. If that makes sense?

Oh I agree with that statement of they aren't vica verca. You can disembark turn 1, otherwise drop pods would break. Drop pods are exception and can arrive turn 1. But then the disembarking unit if they couldn't arrive turn 1 would disappear into the eather as they got out the drop pod.

My POV is simply things like this 12" aura from a RAW perspective, the arguement could be made unit's can't disembark within 12" of them. Because of the vagueness of "arriving on the battlefield mid turn". It's not as clear as other's have put it. And quite frankly people in this thread (not saying you) seem to be taking these points personally and have been down right rude. The whole point is, this is not clear on either side of the scale. The arguement can be made for both POV's.

I'm on the side from a RAW POV technically you cannot disembark within 12", however that's clearly not the intent so I would allow it in a game. But check with your opponent, or if you are at a tourni and you see your opponent has infiltrators ask the TO before the game to avoid delays, arguments or confusions.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Spoiler:

Dadavester wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
Units disembarking transports are not reinforcements, see the tactical reserves rule in full.

"Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

Units set up in a transport count as being on the table. Only units not set-up on the battlefield cannot be set-up turn 1. Therefore units in transports can disembark Turn 1.

I would love to agree, but even this has exceptions. Da jump and warp gate etc.

They begin turn 1, but then count as reinforcements once they use their abilities. The whole transport thing is a grey area I admit. But it has got merit to be either or purely because the of the vagueness of the reinforcements rule. It's not definitive. The only definite term to classify reinforcements is "arrive on the battlefield mid game".

To go further you have more FAQ's stating warlord abilities, aura's etc cannot be used because they are "not on the battlefield". So when they come out the transport they "arrive on the battlefield".

It's a grey area and 100% debatable. But to state it's clear is false.

I get BCB and P5 are very RAW, but that's the point they're playing devil's advocate to demonstrate how contradictory the rules can be.

Da Jump and such are not tactical reserves however. BCB and others are arguing that units arriving from a Transport cannot disembark Turn 1 (at least that is how i have read it). They 100% can as they are not tactical reserves. All tactical reserves count as arriving as reinforcements but not all units counting as reinforcements are tactical reserves. Does that makes sense?

Oh I agree with that statement of they aren't vica verca. You can disembark turn 1, otherwise drop pods would break. Drop pods are exception and can arrive turn 1. But then the disembarking unit if they couldn't arrive turn 1 would disappear into the eather as they got out the drop pod.

My POV is simply things like this 12" aura from a RAW perspective, the arguement could be made unit's can't disembark within 12" of them. Because of the vagueness of "arriving on the battlefield mid turn". It's not as clear as other's have put it. And quite frankly people in this thread (not saying you) seem to be taking these points personally and have been down right rude. The whole point is, this is not clear on either side of the scale. The arguement can be made for both POV's.

I'm on the side from a RAW POV technically you cannot disembark within 12", however that's clearly not the intent so I would allow it in a game. But check with your opponent, or if you are at a tourni and you see your opponent has infiltrators ask the TO before the game to avoid delays, arguments or confusions.

I would agree with this. RAW you can argue quite well that it affects them, however RaI it shouldn't imo and I would not play it that way.

Which would seem like a good place to all move on.