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Hero of the Chapter being usable up multiple times (So three Dudes with a Trait) at 2K points. is going to be interesting.
You get your Warlord,
You get your Chief Apothecary.
You get your "Something else" in UM for my normal lists, I'd lean towards Tiggy
Plus you can double up on a dude.
Without that change it would have been a tough call between a Chief Apothecary resurrecting 8 Wound ATV's or Tiggy making them harder to hit. Now you can do both.
I hope the named Specials that are already a MOS/Chief Librarian/Master of the Forge get their bespoke rules to include most of what the DIY guys get baked in.
Elite Slot Assault Intercessors with +1A who still can't jump for extra points and no ObSec doesn't sound very appealing. Doing it to Shooty Intercessors who don't have a chainsword to make use of that +1A sounds even less so.
Being able to make Command Squads all but FOC free was something they should have done years ago.
Thunderhammers going to -2 didn't get as much press as I thought it would have.
The Relic Terminator thing sounds like they bought stock in an aspirin company and they want us to bang our heads on the desk.
In that same vein, congrats on Repulsors getting what wasn't broken "fixed".
Hopefully sniper scouts will get cheaper now that they're Elite and not ObSec
Poor Thunderfire Cannons.
Finally a Primaris Techmarine for the Primaris only chapters.
Looks like They're trying to incentivize aircraft and their Skyfire counters.
Seeing the other Speeder/Tank data sheets would have been nice, but we'll see them in a week or so. At least one of each looked like a dud, and I'm curious.
He repeated it was an Onslaught not a Heavy Onslaught even tho it looks like the Heavy based on appearance comparisons to the Redemptor Dread and Repulsor etc. Normal Onslaught is fairly puny while the heavy onslaught and the model itself is beefy.
- Newly released models don't have more favourable rules to sell them: Chaplain on bike, Gladius tanks, Hammerfall turret, that Techmarine turret, Assault Intercessor, Outrider. All fit nicely or seem a bit on the weak side. I'm undecided about Heavy Intercessor, yet.
So were most of the primaris units when they were released in 8th. No need to create strong units, those kits are going to sell a lot anyway in the short period as they are the shiny new SM toys. After a while those units might get buffed though, so they can keep selling a lot.
stratigo wrote: It's a standard rhetorical technique. Demand an onerous amount or type of evidence that is largely meaningless, but when someone doesn't jump through the hoops, claim victory. Even if someone does, you can simply shift the rhetoric to a different even more onerous requirement of proof and claim victory still.
Also known as the old “bring me a shrubbery” technique.
2020/10/04 11:48:36
Subject: Re:Space Marine power level with new Codex
I do have to add, I'm more than a little entertained absolutely nothing in the Codex Preview released with.. the Codex.
I think I also disagree with the Grav analysis. They're extra points compared to a Heavy Bolter, but they get an extra shot, have the same Flat 2 damage, and an extra -2 to Armor Save.
for 40 points you get 12 S5 -1 D2 or for 80 you get 16 S5 -3 D2
2.68 damaging wounds vs T4 3+ .or 6.0 and change damaging wounds. (i.e. before D2 per wound)
Vs T4 6+ it's 5.38 for the HB, 7 for the GC+A.
Assuming no tailoring, the GC+A still performs better against a "random" opponent. Especially since more are 3+ or 4+ vs 6+
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2020/10/04 14:55:48
Subject: Re:Space Marine power level with new Codex
True, but seems very likely give the in-codex contemptor.
I'd bet that the Contemptors will get it, maybe Daredeos, but Leviathans might not. And it could only be for loyalist dreadnoughts, csm could get something different. We'll see when the Imperial Armour Compendium is finally released.
2020/10/04 15:56:58
Subject: Re:Space Marine power level with new Codex
True, but seems very likely give the in-codex contemptor.
The question you have to ask yourself is if the people writing the marine codex and the people writing the forge world books are the same, and if they aren't, did they ever talk? Not a given in GW.
FWIW, youtube videos obviously *could* be faked, but its adding a reasonable amount of time and effort to do constant takes until you get the right *roll* of dice, then slice it in to another video to steer things to the outcome you want.
If memory serves, Tabletop Tactics used to scrap the "blowout by turn 2 games" (or at least so it was claimed) - but since they are producing 4 battle reports a week, they don't really have a choice. Which, cynically, is why it happens fairly frequently and those reports are often not the best viewing.
Poly Ranger wrote: Remember in early 7th when most Eldar lists had at least 4 wave serpents or in late 7th when Scat bikes came out and were the most insanely broken thing 40k has ever seen to date, and some Eldar players claimed Eldar weren't OP if you ignored these units...
Deja vu.
Not up to date personally with the game at the moment as just getting back into it after a 3 year hiatus but the defence of these Eradicators is almost word for word the same defence used against Wave Serpents and later on - Scat Bikes.
The difference being, if you remove eradicators, then the Marine codex is still an A+ tier extremely strong codex.
It's still a super strong codex. I think people were initially blown away by the fact that some stuff actually got nerfed, but when you really look at it, enough stuff also got buffed that it probably comes out to swings and roundabouts in terms of overall power level, or at most a very modest nerf.
The codex is still ridiculously efficient. In particular, the way that basically the whole army got <CORE> contrasts extremely poorly with what they did to Necrons, for whom <CORE> is actually a meaningful restriction, as is the strength of the character upgrades - traits, relics, you name it, it's way better for SM than for Necrons or anybody else really. You just get more for your points with marines than with anything else, including the new Necron book.
2020/10/05 00:11:52
Subject: Re:Space Marine power level with new Codex
True, but seems very likely give the in-codex contemptor.
The question you have to ask yourself is if the people writing the marine codex and the people writing the forge world books are the same, and if they aren't, did they ever talk? Not a given in GW.
They used to not be the same, but it's all in-house now. Won't be long to find out either way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: It's still a super strong codex. I think people were initially blown away by the fact that some stuff actually got nerfed, but when you really look at it, enough stuff also got buffed that it probably comes out to swings and roundabouts in terms of overall power level, or at most a very modest nerf.
The codex is still ridiculously efficient. In particular, the way that basically the whole army got <CORE> contrasts extremely poorly with what they did to Necrons, for whom <CORE> is actually a meaningful restriction, as is the strength of the character upgrades - traits, relics, you name it, it's way better for SM than for Necrons or anybody else really. You just get more for your points with marines than with anything else, including the new Necron book.
I still think it's a really good book, but nothing makes me go "holy gak that is busted" - except maybe the ATV thing, but even then it could go either way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/05 00:14:00
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I still think it's a really good book, but nothing makes me go "holy gak that is busted" - except maybe the ATV thing, but even then it could go either way.
Eradicators and bladeguard are still substantially overtuned, the stuff that gives ob-sec to stuff seems problematic, and the apothecary seems problematic too. But I agree, nothing jumps out as being as ridiculously broken as some of the older stuff.
2020/10/05 01:52:29
Subject: Re:Space Marine power level with new Codex
I still think it's a really good book, but nothing makes me go "holy gak that is busted" - except maybe the ATV thing, but even then it could go either way.
Eradicators and bladeguard are still substantially overtuned, the stuff that gives ob-sec to stuff seems problematic, and the apothecary seems problematic too. But I agree, nothing jumps out as being as ridiculously broken as some of the older stuff.
I worry a little less about BGV with the Impulsor changes. Eradicators are awesome, but struggle against bodies and with Aggressors and the TFC taking a solid hit the marine capacity to deal with hordes dropped considerably.
I'm probably most scared about DA plasma castles, but I need to get the book in front of me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/05 01:53:17
I don't think the ATV or the bladeguard really stand out. There are -way- too many ways for pumping out multimeltas AND storm shields with 2D weapons.
Some are even cheaper.
And the upcoming supplements will have more. (Wulfen, sanguinary guard, death company)
Blade guard also struggle against high toughness and their competitors don't have to.
Daedalus81 wrote:
I worry a little less about BGV with the Impulsor changes. Eradicators are awesome, but struggle against bodies and with Aggressors and the TFC taking a solid hit the marine capacity to deal with hordes dropped considerably.
I disagree with basically all of this. Yes, Aggressors are less powerful, but they're still plenty crazy.
Eradicators can happily delete big chunks of any 10 man squad with just 3 bodies (~40%, more with real support).
And marine anti-horde is _fine_. Aggressors can still kill a lot, but so can anyone with basic guns. Or the not-so-basic but still Troops-level guns. Even the not-so-good vehicles can pour out tons of shots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/05 02:16:06
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I still think it's a really good book, but nothing makes me go "holy gak that is busted" - except maybe the ATV thing, but even then it could go either way.
Eradicators and bladeguard are still substantially overtuned, the stuff that gives ob-sec to stuff seems problematic, and the apothecary seems problematic too. But I agree, nothing jumps out as being as ridiculously broken as some of the older stuff.
I worry a little less about BGV with the Impulsor changes. Eradicators are awesome, but struggle against bodies and with Aggressors and the TFC taking a solid hit the marine capacity to deal with hordes dropped considerably.
I'm probably most scared about DA plasma castles, but I need to get the book in front of me.
Flamestorm agressors still do plenty of work against horde units.
As should the Gattling on your Gattling Redemptor, and the nee Gladious how many shots? Is more efficient than many other codex's one or two option vrs hordes.
Daedalus81 wrote:I worry a little less about BGV with the Impulsor changes. Eradicators are awesome, but struggle against bodies and with Aggressors and the TFC taking a solid hit the marine capacity to deal with hordes dropped considerably.
I'm probably most scared about DA plasma castles, but I need to get the book in front of me.
With the extra attack for lightning claws and their immanent extra wound warp talons will eat BGV, we can quibble whether BGVs should be more expensive or warp talons cheaper, but, meh.
It's that +1 save for gravis against D1 weapons that annoys me. I was pretty much planning to use multi-damage weapons on eradicators (a tank to kill the tank killers. HAH!), But it will make heavy intercessors ridiculous for holding objectives. It's going to be hard knocking them off with assault units. How many good assault units have multi-damage weapons? I don't have any, unless you count the Contemptor, and he'll have bigger fish to fry.
Argive wrote: Has there been any update on the FW book release date ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Billagio wrote: Im really hoping the FW dreads dont get nerfed to oblivion and get the -1 dmg ability
How is that a nerf ?
Sorry, I meant for that to sound like 2 separate statements. 1. I hope they dont get nerfed. 2. I hope they get the new SM Dread -1 dmg thing.
Agreed on both, though I suspect that the csmfw dreads will get something different (as well as hellbrutes).
And I really want to know when the Imperial Armour Compendium is coming out.
Same. I dont know if theres any point in painting my shadow specters
Of course there is. They're wicked looking models, and a quick glance at their current rules makes them look pretty fun.
Yeah but that paint desk que is loooong my friend. Priorities have to be made
Ah, an embarrassment of riches. I just want to see how many of my old toys will be good. Sticking my Contemptor in a Dreadclaw is looking good again, and the Achilles will probably be coming back out to play, but I need to know about THE BIG ONE. C'mon gw, let's keep that return of Armourbane train rolling....
Poly Ranger wrote: Remember in early 7th when most Eldar lists had at least 4 wave serpents or in late 7th when Scat bikes came out and were the most insanely broken thing 40k has ever seen to date, and some Eldar players claimed Eldar weren't OP if you ignored these units...
Deja vu.
Not up to date personally with the game at the moment as just getting back into it after a 3 year hiatus but the defence of these Eradicators is almost word for word the same defence used against Wave Serpents and later on - Scat Bikes.
The difference being, if you remove eradicators, then the Marine codex is still an A+ tier extremely strong codex.
Tbf so was the Eldar dex with Scat Bikes removed. I couldn't personally compare the power levels for their times between the 2 now because I'm just returned.
Poly Ranger wrote: Remember in early 7th when most Eldar lists had at least 4 wave serpents or in late 7th when Scat bikes came out and were the most insanely broken thing 40k has ever seen to date, and some Eldar players claimed Eldar weren't OP if you ignored these units...
Deja vu.
Not up to date personally with the game at the moment as just getting back into it after a 3 year hiatus but the defence of these Eradicators is almost word for word the same defence used against Wave Serpents and later on - Scat Bikes.
The difference being, if you remove eradicators, then the Marine codex is still an A+ tier extremely strong codex.
So is your problem eradicators being OP or Marines having a codex that's actually good?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
The eldar dex had a lot more than scatbikes which were 100% broken, so even by removing those obviously you had an S++ tier codex.
Never in the long history of this game has there been something as strong as 7th eldar. Pre nerf IH have been a cute approximation of a contender.
The only reason why the game wasn't 100% eldar at the time, is because at the same time you had other dumb things like invisible deathstars.
On the actual topic, the current power level of the SM is now fine. Sure you can squeeze quite a bit of efficency if you go ham on a couple of really good units and synergies, but a casual list is now much more fair compared to other faction's casual lists, which is what really matters in the end.
The internal balance is not perfect, so there will be difference between a fluffy list and a competitive list, but that is true for almost all factions. The external balance is fine. The fluffy lists should contend well with other fluffy lists, and the competitive lists have about equal ground with other competitive lists.
Spoletta wrote: The eldar dex had a lot more than scatbikes which were 100% broken, so even by removing those obviously you had an S++ tier codex.
Never in the long history of this game has there been something as strong as 7th eldar. Pre nerf IH have been a cute approximation of a contender.
The only reason why the game wasn't 100% eldar at the time, is because at the same time you had other dumb things like invisible deathstars.
On the actual topic, the current power level of the SM is now fine. Sure you can squeeze quite a bit of efficency if you go ham on a couple of really good units and synergies, but a casual list is now much more fair compared to other faction's casual lists, which is what really matters in the end.
The internal balance is not perfect, so there will be difference between a fluffy list and a competitive list, but that is true for almost all factions. The external balance is fine. The fluffy lists should contend well with other fluffy lists, and the competitive lists have about equal ground with other competitive lists.
You had scatbikes and the wraithknight. There were a couple other deathstar builds too, but then every army had those. The Eldar hatred is just something Marine/Imperium players like to bring up to take the heat off their own cheese.
Also Eldar, even in 7th, and in every edition, has always been powerful. That's the whole points of Eldar. They are meant to be powerful. Because they are the Glass Cannon army. Extremely strong, but if you make one mistake you lose half your army. Which is why they (used to) be disproportionally strong in tournaments - pro players don't tend to make as many big mistakes, which makes the glass cannons hit hard and avoid getting hit back.
Problem with Eldar now, is being a glass cannon means that it's possible to win. And people don't like that in an opponent. So now Eldar lost all their cannons, and are just glass. I mean hell just look at their aspect warrior elite weaponry in comparison to the basic primaris troops.
Don't get me wrong, Eldar should have had some changes done to their 7th army, but this was long before the days of regular GW updates. Hell, this was 7 years ago, and yet it STILL gets brought up on a daily basis as a reason why Marines should get an overpowered codex... cos somehow it's an Eldar players fault that they had a broken unit more than half a decade ago, and they should be punished for it in perpetuity.
But I digress, this is all off topic. But the on-topic part of your post talks about how the SM codex is now completely fair and balanced against all the other army codices out there. And I mean... that's just so ridiculously laughable that my time was better spent talking about off-topic things instead. This is the kind of comment that can only come from the mouth of an Imperium player.
Eldar- 4436 pts
