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I think deep strike should be removed or changed so that they are unaffected by the valkyries grav chute insertion rule, kinda makes since doesn't it?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 lagoon83 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yeah, no. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus were two separate elements of a faction that actually could function as a whole. Whatever James Hewitt or whatever ex-GW employees say, pretending that there was some kind of nefarious purpose there is disingenuous. You did not require buying both to field a full army.

I mean, yeah, you could field a full army of either one...

...because the designers made sure that they each worked as separate armies. Because that was the job

And it wasn't nefarious, it was just a cold, calculated business decision, made without regard for how it would impact The Rules, because at the time that was management's prerogative.

Which was the point I was attempting to make...people have a habit of trying to twist the comments about the design into something nefarious rather than just "books were meant to standalone".

Yes, and they could make an entire army out of Space Marine Scouts into an army that somehow was standalone from the whole of the standard structure of Space Marines. They could even write the rules well enough that you could think they shouldn't be together despite being part of a bigger whole in lore.

Still didn't mean making Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus split apart was a good idea.

Voss wrote:

10 short coat legs
10 long coat legs

I don't see this happening. Some kits have extra torsos (or extra torso halves), as vehicles in particular kick up optional gunners, but I can't think of a single GW kit that gives extra legs. For the entire span of plastic kits, afaik.

It honestly seems to be purposeful, as extra arms happen all the time, and extra heads a fair bit, but they don't want people building spare models from the base up, so legs are verboten.

There are a couple, IIRC fire warrior have or at one time had extra legs [i don't play tau though so can't confirm] as long as either torso or legs is limited. But they've moved away from having separate torsos and legs anyway so torsos and legs are now paired.

That said, the only essential difference between long coat and short coat guard is below the belt, so alternate legs for each torso would entirely work if they're willing.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yes, and they could make an entire army out of Space Marine Scouts into an army that somehow was standalone from the whole of the standard structure of Space Marines. They could even write the rules well enough that you could think they shouldn't be together despite being part of a bigger whole in lore.

Still didn't mean making Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus split apart was a good idea.

They didn't "make them split apart". Those two had never been full armies in 40k before then.

And frankly? The two being mushed together was more of a bad idea than a good one. It killed the flavor of one(Skitarii) in favor of...well, nothing exciting or interesting really.
The biggest problem with Cult as an army had been that their 'troops' choice(Kataphron) were stupid expensive in terms of $$ and points. There's a reason why the mixed formations appealed to people and that reason is that Canticles relied on bodies and there was no real way to add bodies without going weird...especially since the Cult book didn't include the Techpriest Enginseer or the plain ol' Servitor upon initial publication. Agents of the Imperium added those two units.

By contrast, Skitarii had an interesting setup with no HQs and a rather tanky infantry unit that could get some early board control thanks to their Scout moves. They lacked organic heavy weapons, relying instead upon their walkers(Onager and Ballistarius) for that role and some esoteric weaponry with some weird rules(Armourbane Transauranics were a hell of a thing to see) to help them bridge their loadout weaknesses at lower points.

All told, the combining of the two did nothing but screw with the Skitarii side of things and buff up the Cult without actually addressing any of the problems beyond just making Canticles a flat benefit rather than scaling. A lot of the complaints that I've had could have been addressed simply by making the Doctrina Imperatives a Skitarii unit rule and adding a Skitarii HQ right off the bat. Wouldn't have even needed a model since it could be kitbashed out of the boxes.

Scions are, frankly, in a similar situation as the Skitarii are where there are some players(in many instances, people who outright have admitted to having zero interest in the subfactions) who refuse to acknowledge that there is room to let a subfaction grow within a list. Scions at least have gotten their own Regimental rules at this point, and my real hope is that they'll see fit to grow them out a bit with the ability to at least make a Battalion with no real issue.

Your comparison to Scouts is a bit daft by the by. Scouts are a single unit. Skitarii aren't. They were a catch-all term used for decades in the lore. Now it's been delineated a bit as to what things are.

They didn't "make them split apart". Those two had never been full armies in 40k before then.

Of course not, they were in the lore. And GW in their infinite wisdom decided to try and make a Mechanicus army without Mechanicus and it was a failure of design both in removing all the aspects of Skitarii that had existed before then and not being sure what to do with them after.

Your comparison to Scouts is a bit daft by the by. Scouts are a single unit. Skitarii aren't. They were a catch-all term used for decades in the lore. Now it's been delineated a bit as to what things are.

Technically scouts are an entire company within the Space Marine collective chart, about on par in size with Deathwing or Ravenwing. You could conceivably make an entire faction out of them and try and fluff it out exactly like Skitarii somehow got.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

They didn't "make them split apart". Those two had never been full armies in 40k before then.

Of course not, they were in the lore. And GW in their infinite wisdom decided to try and make a Mechanicus army without Mechanicus and it was a failure of design both in removing all the aspects of Skitarii that had existed before then and not being sure what to do with them after.

Says who? Skitarii seemed fairly well received...while Cult didn't seem that well-received outside of the usual powergamer tools once they got the WD formation. But that's what happens when you have a $58 Troops choice that's 50 or 55/model, in an army with buffs scaling off the number of units you take and then give them a way to counteract that deficit by adding in other units(one of which is a SHW).


And what aspects of the Skitarii existed before then? Seriously, it was a catch-all term for everything from augmented human soldiery with lasguns to hulking vatgrown servitors with guns grafted to their arms. Or is this a case of "I don't like the lore they gave us"? Because never once did it attempt to separate the Skitarii from the Mechanicus. It just painted the Techpriests as being overseers lurking in safety rather than hanging around shouting and waving people forward. It painted the Priesthood as seeing through the sensory input of its puppets on the ground and able to utilize them for its own purposes.

Your comparison to Scouts is a bit daft by the by. Scouts are a single unit. Skitarii aren't. They were a catch-all term used for decades in the lore. Now it's been delineated a bit as to what things are.

Technically scouts are an entire company within the Space Marine collective chart, about on par in size with Deathwing or Ravenwing. You could conceivably make an entire faction out of them and try and fluff it out exactly like Skitarii somehow got.

And technically those Scouts are always Scouts. At most, one could argue for:
-Captain in Scout Armor(which is something I did argue for)
-Veteran Scouts(which is something Space Wolves got and nobody else did, despite other Chapters having them in the lore) as an Elite choice
-Scouts(the troops choice we all know and love)
-Scout Bikers(we already have these)
-...no idea for heavy...

Deathwing and Ravenwing are a totally separate beast, as the Dark Angels are kinda weird when it comes to that stuff.

I mean I believe is best for the Adeptus Mechanicus to be combined. But I can agree with Khan that GW could have done much more for allowing different playstiles.

As he says. I love my tempestus and my bullgryns. I have 0 interest in the rest of the imperial guard. People that ask for that option to be removed are complete morons. And I can agree with people that want a <regimental> stormtrooper unit, but theres no problem with tempestus existing inside the imperial guard to be played alongside them if you want.

GW could have done an Adeptus Mechanicus book designed to be played as an unified force but allowing for you to go specialized and field a more limited forced build around skitarii.

And I would also have loved for the option to play a full space marine scout force with scout HQ's (you have telion, why not generic options), scout troops, land speeders storms, scout bikers, etc...

Theres a reason why Greenskins was my favourite book and my faction in fantasy. You could mix and match them (And the book was expected to do it that way), and when mixed they complemented each ones weakness. But you could also play full specialized armies that worked on the table. From normal orcs or goblins, savage orcs, night goblins! It was extremely fun and varied.