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I don't think its a non-existent issue, because there is a clear difference between walking 5" forward, and motoring 14" forward. Especially if you were previously hiding behind LOS blocking terrain in case you didn't get turn 1.
Terrain that Eradicators can quite literally walk through thanks to being Infantry. The amount of terrain that has across the board Unstable, Obscuring and lacks Breachable is near-zero. The combination flat out doesnt exist in GW's terrain templates.
The heavy rifle is obviously excellent against 3 wound models - because flat 3 wound weapons are relatively rare.
It's not flat three damage. It's minimum three damage, with a possible maximum of ten damage. The average damage that an unsaved shot from an HMR does is five and seven respectively depending on your range to target. And again, that's not accounting for the third fella in the squad who is double tapping with his multi-melta.
But rolling disproportionately low on 4s is going to happen more often than 3s. And especially 3s rerolling 1s if you can arrange that.
You dont want to bring rerolls into this equation, as they can just as easily be applied to both units. They also heavily favor Eradicators on the bounce across the board due to their higher rate of fire, and damage per shot.
Yes, you will have higher variance on the number of hits you make with an Eradicator squad. It doesnt matter. The higher rate of fire, and enhanced damage, will more than make up for the accuracy delta. If you're rolling so horribly that an Eradicator team doesnt do the business, you've pissed off more than just your dice.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/21 20:11:48
Also I agree with Tyel that bikes have that inherent mobility advantage, and that the heavy Eradicator advocates seem to be ignoring the -1 to hit that bikes no longer have on heavy weapon shots.
No, we're not. It's a non-existent issue because the addition of the flat +2 damage more than cancels out the accuracy malus. Goonhammer ran the numbers on it. I'll quote their conclusions, while the link is here should you want to deep-dive
The difference is simple; 5 more points gets you 2 more damage at the expense of needing to take a -1 to hit penalty when moving. The chart below shows a variety of outcomes for a typical T8/5++ target, and the results indicate that even with a movement penalty the heavy melta rifle will average more damage at the expense of doing no damage 40% of the time as opposed to 30% for the assault version. The biggest benefit of using the melta rifle is that it’s an assault weapon and so players have a bit more range, but Games Workshop decided to change Total Obliteration so that it only works if the unit did not Advance. The heavy melta rifle is simply the superior option.
The numbers and distribution get even more favorable for HMRs as you decrease toughness on multi-wound models like Gravis, Crisis Suits or other T5-7 units that are typically taken in squads. Flat damage modifiers are exceptionally powerful bonuses when dealing with damage distribution profiles.
Interesting. I stand corrected.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/21 21:12:26
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
I just want to reiterate that I really like Attack Bikes as a unit for 9th. They're mobile, absurdly resilient for their points, can dish out serious hurt, and for certain chapters with Bike keyword based strats, rules or other boosts can be an absolute nightmare. Im in the process of converting up a few right now, and I fully intend to run them in friendly games.
Even with all that, because of the way terrain interacts with unit keywords, the absolute flying rodent gak amount of fire Eradicators put out and their reliable damage from the HMR variant, they're simply a superior option against every conceivable target profile barring 1W horde units like Gaunts or Orks (which Marines have no shortage of units that can step in and deal with them instead). Theyre a perfect TAC firebase unit, and their points costs make them auto-takes over just about any comparable unit for a fire support role.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/21 21:49:55
Also I agree with Tyel that bikes have that inherent mobility advantage, and that the heavy Eradicator advocates seem to be ignoring the -1 to hit that bikes no longer have on heavy weapon shots.
No, we're not. It's a non-existent issue because the addition of the flat +2 damage more than cancels out the accuracy malus. Goonhammer ran the numbers on it. I'll quote their conclusions, while the link is here should you want to deep-dive
I don't think its a non-existent issue, because there is a clear difference between walking 5" forward, and motoring 14" forward. Especially if you were previously hiding behind LOS blocking terrain in case you didn't get turn 1.
The heavy rifle is obviously excellent against 3 wound models - because flat 3 wound weapons are relatively rare.
But rolling disproportionately low on 4s is going to happen more often than 3s. And especially 3s rerolling 1s if you can arrange that.
Or you can just pay 1CP for Steady Advance and shoot those heavy meltas at full ballistic skill after moving (but not advancing). As always, loyalists have an answer to every problem.
I had some thunderwolf cavelery. A wolf lord on thubderwolf. And some groups of bikes/qttack bikes. I am avoiding buying to many new models and bike squads are good for SW.
Anyhoo... The multimelta bike is 55 points. Depending on where you land they are better or worse then eradicators, but are compearable. I do not want to go to much into that diconemy, we have talked about it.
But assuming I have a wolf lord nearby (chapter master for regular SM?) that lets me re-roll 1's to hit the biker with plasmagun, they seem quite good for 40 points. Get within rapid fire range and you have 2 S8 D3 on the overload. While coming in on a 3rd place compared to attack bikes and eradicators it seems quite good. Especially when you can essentially buy 'more wounds' for your attack bikes.
Eradicators by themselves are very good but not completely game breaking. The issue for me is them stacking with all the other Space Marine buffs.
Company Ancient, Chief Apothecary, Captain and Lieutenant make a really... urgh 'good' blob, particularly if your faction doesn't have access to anti-character/S5 non LOS weaponry.
I was up against three Eradicator squads yesterday tried to kill them, to get through and kill the Chief Apothecary to stop the Melta ATVs respawning.
By the time my Coldstar had killed the first squad of eradicators I'd lost the other two Coldstars who were waiting to shoot. I had to go for the jugular as there were 7 ATVs still on the board in a 2k game.
Yeah, Eradicators aren't game breaking. It's just that the game has no solid counter for them yet, unless it's squad of four or five Custodes Bikers, and even that isn't a guarantee.
