Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It might be a niche role, but I think there are some fun things you can do with them in crusade lists.

First of all, as it’s PL, you can get both the grav chutes and grapples for no extra charge. All the mobility, none of the upcharge.

One of the battle traits you can give them is Battle-Tested. Which gives them ObSec, the ability to still shoot while taking an action, and auto-pass attrition tests while near an objective.

So you have the strat that removes obsec, and if they have ObSec, you end up with a unit that can just claim objectives. And do things on them while being a little harder to kill off.

Not a bad little combo for a disruption unit, and something uniquely theirs.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Phobos units have more differance between them then SOB Battle sisters retributor squads and celestians I mean LITERALLY the only differance there is what guns they're allowed to take!

Exactly. And that's why we need to give Sisters need models and units, while the Space Marines need to stop getting new releases and consolidation of the current ones.
Also you meant Dominions, not Celestians, lol.

I can't speak to how different Phobos units are, but I agree with Hybrid that yes, Sisters need more.

But Brian, you are LITERALLY wrong.
- Celestians have higher LD, higher Attacks, the Bodyguard rule and Sworn Protectors to reroll attacks while within 6 inches of a Canoness + a sweet bespoke strat and a max unit size of 10.
- Retributors move and fire heavy weapons, have + 4" to flamers, and their Cherubs work differently + access to the most versatile strat in the dex and a max unit size of 10.
- BSS have NO special rules, and NO bespoke strats, but their max squad size is 15.

Differences between various flavours of Phobos may be greater than these differences, so your overall point may still be correct. But differences between Sisters units are 100% not just load out.

yes I'm aware which is LESS differant then the rules differance between reivers, infiltrators and eradicators. my point isn't that there's not a differance between the various SOB units, but rather just that claiming all phobos units are the same is well.. absolutely incorrect

Perhaps if they had spent as much time and design space on Sororitas as they spent on Space Marines, they would have more distinct datasheets...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Perhaps if they had spent as much time and design space on Sororitas as they spent on Space Marines, they would have more distinct datasheets...

and here it is, the petty childish envy laden sentiment at the heart of this kind of bs

BrianDavion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Perhaps if they had spent as much time and design space on Sororitas as they spent on Space Marines, they would have more distinct datasheets...

and here it is, the petty childish envy laden sentiment at the heart of this kind of bs

Excellent and well crafted counter-argument, you certainly got me.

Make them fast attack and give them +1 to charge in addition to the terrain rule with grappling launchers. Don't let enemies fall back. Maybe some kind of -1 to hit them in melee.

In other words, make them a reliable tarpit or GEQ blender. Save the big damage melee for vanguard vets or a different specialist unit.

As it stands they just don't do enough to justify an elite slot, even as a meta pick. I can't see a reason to take them over vanguard vets.

For me I would have made grav chutes and grapples baseline in the unit cost (because they should be doing that stuff anyways! its basically a baby jetpack). Then I would have upped the value of terror troops to -3 and added a line where it prevents units from falling back and fighting last.

This way they can lock up important units and force the player to have to deal with them. It would be far more strategic and the use would be fairly unique.

BrianDavion wrote:
my point isn't that there's not a differance between the various SOB units, but rather just that claiming all phobos units are the same is well.. absolutely incorrect

Nobody is saying they are, we are saying they should be.

I give them chainaxes and world eaters shoulderpads/helmets and call them berserkers with knife and axe. Works rather well.

Remove Bolt Carbine, give them the 18" Range Heavy Bolt Pistol, give them AP -1 on their Knife natively.

Both weapons are then AP -2 in the Assault Doctrine.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Remove Bolt Carbine, give them the 18" Range Heavy Bolt Pistol, give them AP -1 on their Knife natively.
Both weapons are then AP -2 in the Assault Doctrine.

This just makes them inferior Assault Intercessors, though. Granted they have the grapnel gun, grav-chutes and Ld modifier, but none of that makes up for ObSec.

 Super Ready wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Remove Bolt Carbine, give them the 18" Range Heavy Bolt Pistol, give them AP -1 on their Knife natively.
Both weapons are then AP -2 in the Assault Doctrine.

This just makes them inferior Assault Intercessors, though. Granted they have the grapnel gun, grav-chutes and Ld modifier, but none of that makes up for ObSec.

keep in mind they have a start that can REMOVE ObSec from an enemy, and marines have a warlord trait that lets them grant OS to any <core> units within 6 inches of them those two facts together make reivers not nesscariyl having OS, less relevant.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Remove Bolt Carbine, give them the 18" Range Heavy Bolt Pistol, give them AP -1 on their Knife natively.
Both weapons are then AP -2 in the Assault Doctrine.

This just makes them inferior Assault Intercessors, though. Granted they have the grapnel gun, grav-chutes and Ld modifier, but none of that makes up for ObSec.

keep in mind they have a start that can REMOVE ObSec from an enemy, and marines have a warlord trait that lets them grant OS to any <core> units within 6 inches of them those two facts together make reivers not nesscariyl having OS, less relevant.

Strats aren't an argument for defending poor units because you assume CP will always exist to use that for. Thats like saying Destroyers from the 8th Necron codex were great because they rerolled all hits and wounds, even though that's basically a lie.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Remove Bolt Carbine, give them the 18" Range Heavy Bolt Pistol, give them AP -1 on their Knife natively.
Both weapons are then AP -2 in the Assault Doctrine.

This just makes them inferior Assault Intercessors, though. Granted they have the grapnel gun, grav-chutes and Ld modifier, but none of that makes up for ObSec.

keep in mind they have a start that can REMOVE ObSec from an enemy, and marines have a warlord trait that lets them grant OS to any <core> units within 6 inches of them those two facts together make reivers not nesscariyl having OS, less relevant.

Strats aren't an argument for defending poor units because you assume CP will always exist to use that for. Thats like saying Destroyers from the 8th Necron codex were great because they rerolled all hits and wounds, even though that's basically a lie.

I think there's a differance between a strat involving shooting, and a strat for a particular tactical situation that can potentially if used at the right time can swing sometimes in your favor (one of these should be a start the other shouldn't, just to start) my point is that if the ONLY thing going for Assault intercessors over reivers is Objective secured, then it's not really all THAT important. as reivers might, SITUATIONALLY, if you PLAN around them, be even better

Well, aside from the issue of having to use the strat and/or Warlord trait (and the strat making it only ever effective for one such unit a turn, whereas multiple units of Assault Intercessors is very likely going to be "a thing"...)
There's the issue of the Elites slot for Marines being hotly contested, too. Taking Reivers over Assault Intercessors is a much tougher prospect to sell when you might have to leave, say, a Chaplain or some Aggressors at home in order to do it. Nobody's hurting for Troops slots, though.

...admittedly this is a problem that haunts the unit as it is now, even before making the aforementioned changes. It's just that right now, it's not even a remotely difficult choice.

 Super Ready wrote:
Well, aside from the issue of having to use the strat and/or Warlord trait (and the strat making it only ever effective for one such unit a turn, whereas multiple units of Assault Intercessors is very likely going to be "a thing"...)
There's the issue of the Elites slot for Marines being hotly contested, too. Taking Reivers over Assault Intercessors is a much tougher prospect to sell when you might have to leave, say, a Chaplain or some Aggressors at home in order to do it. Nobody's hurting for Troops slots, though.

...admittedly this is a problem that haunts the unit as it is now, even before making the aforementioned changes. It's just that right now, it's not even a remotely difficult choice.

ohh come on man, we all know space marine players look at reivers and go "man! I totally want these guys instead of my bladeguard and terminators!"

They shouldn’t be troops, they should be FA, and just Primaris Assault Marines. Take both chutes and grapnels to get jump packs, and yeah make the combat knives Astarte Chain Swords in everything but name.

Breton wrote:
They shouldn’t be troops, they should be FA, and just Primaris Assault Marines. Take both chutes and grapnels to get jump packs, and yeah make the combat knives Astarte Chain Swords in everything but name.

no one is saying they should be troops. they're comparing them to assault intercessors which are

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Remove Bolt Carbine, give them the 18" Range Heavy Bolt Pistol, give them AP -1 on their Knife natively.
Both weapons are then AP -2 in the Assault Doctrine.

This just makes them inferior Assault Intercessors, though. Granted they have the grapnel gun, grav-chutes and Ld modifier, but none of that makes up for ObSec.

keep in mind they have a start that can REMOVE ObSec from an enemy, and marines have a warlord trait that lets them grant OS to any <core> units within 6 inches of them those two facts together make reivers not nesscariyl having OS, less relevant.

Strats aren't an argument for defending poor units because you assume CP will always exist to use that for. Thats like saying Destroyers from the 8th Necron codex were great because they rerolled all hits and wounds, even though that's basically a lie.

I think there's a differance between a strat involving shooting, and a strat for a particular tactical situation that can potentially if used at the right time can swing sometimes in your favor (one of these should be a start the other shouldn't, just to start) my point is that if the ONLY thing going for Assault intercessors over reivers is Objective secured, then it's not really all THAT important. as reivers might, SITUATIONALLY, if you PLAN around them, be even better

A strat for shooting a multiple shot S6 AP-2 DD3 gun. THAT will delete a target when you reroll everything. You can plan around that!

So no your Strat argument is garbage and you should feel bad.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:
They shouldn’t be troops, they should be FA, and just Primaris Assault Marines. Take both chutes and grapnels to get jump packs, and yeah make the combat knives Astarte Chain Swords in everything but name.

no one is saying they should be troops. they're comparing them to assault intercessors which are

This kind of sounded like it to me...

Nobody's hurting for Troops slots

GW should have made 40k lite for kids, and this should have been one of the units for that game. Grapnel guns, for example, are the sort of gimmick to make a ten year old squeal with glee.

 jeff white wrote:
GW should have made 40k lite for kids, and this should have been one of the units for that game. Grapnel guns, for example, are the sort of gimmick to make a ten year old squeal with glee.

yes jeff we get it, you dislike Primaris.

Maybe you could I dunno, not drop into every thread that remotely discusses it to go "HEY GUYS! REMEMBER ME! I'M JEFF AND I DISLIKE PRIMARIS!"?

I'm happy to say they should have been made troops. Or just get Obsec because. Same for Flayed Ones, Kommandos and similar assault-leaning infiltration units.

The whole "turn obsec off" for a stratagem could also have just been something the unit had base.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Given that you didn't ask for a specific, present idea and how I used the past tense of "represent" it should have been extremely obvious from the word go that I was referring to the previous incarnation of Shock Grenades(which only just got superceded when the new book dropped).

I know my school days are long over, but I'm fairly sure that "there is no good way to represent fear" is present tense, and that is what you responded to.

And yes, that's still a bad rule because
1) overwatch is not inherently valuable
2) there is no way to base an army around denying overwatch, while many armies and units are based around inducing fear

Overwatch is absolutely valuable, or at least that's what melee-centric players will scream at you repeatedly. Being able to shut down a unit(or units if you have the capability to trigger multiple Overwatches in one go) from Overwatching is a relatively big deal if they have no countermelee ability.

Overwatch is worthless if the target unit has no shooting weapons, only short ranged ones, weapons that can't really hurt your charging unit or a low number of shots that are unlikely to hit. A nightlord daemon prince, a master of fear, really don't care if the guardsmen in front of him are allowed to shot their lasguns in overwatch or not. But I'm fairly sure that they are soiling themselves nonetheless.

Overwatch is valuable if charging units are fragile glass canoons or when your unit has auto-hitting or decent ROF weapons with good stats, but it's not an inherently valuable thing. And by that I mean something that has value against almost every army and unit you play. For example, shock assault or bolter drill are rules that is inherently valuable, where death to the false emperor is not.

So something that induces drawbacks on units depending on their leadership would probably a good way to do it, but I feel like there needs to be an actual "fear" mechanic that can then be used by everything related to inducing fear across all armies.

 Super Ready wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Simple. I'd make their grav chutes and grapple launcher free. Contrary to how GW portrays them you can take both. So they should lean hard into that, deep strike and excellent vertical movement

That's not a bad idea - that certainly makes them a bit more attractive as they currently are. Sadly they'd immediately be overshadowed by any incoming dedicated Primaris jump unit, unless they really mess that one up.

It's not perfect, but it gives them a niche. Maybe make terror troops count as 2 dead models for morale if they are within 12" of the unit. As it stands terror troops only really works with the melee variant

We can lose the snark and digs at other posters please.

Ta.

BrianDavion wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
GW should have made 40k lite for kids, and this should have been one of the units for that game. Grapnel guns, for example, are the sort of gimmick to make a ten year old squeal with glee.

yes jeff we get it, you dislike Primaris.

Maybe you could I dunno, not drop into every thread that remotely discusses it to go "HEY GUYS! REMEMBER ME! I'M JEFF AND I DISLIKE PRIMARIS!"?

The funniest part is the idea that GW games aren't primarily made for kids and have been since at least the early 90's! It's like complaining about Star Wars or Marvel not deeply delving into the impact of trauma.

 Super Ready wrote:
Well, aside from the issue of having to use the strat and/or Warlord trait (and the strat making it only ever effective for one such unit a turn, whereas multiple units of Assault Intercessors is very likely going to be "a thing"...)
There's the issue of the Elites slot for Marines being hotly contested, too. Taking Reivers over Assault Intercessors is a much tougher prospect to sell when you might have to leave, say, a Chaplain or some Aggressors at home in order to do it. Nobody's hurting for Troops slots, though.

...admittedly this is a problem that haunts the unit as it is now, even before making the aforementioned changes. It's just that right now, it's not even a remotely difficult choice.

Indeed. My Iron Hands elites are all Dreadnoughts (maybe an Apothecary)

Reivers are 110% useless to me. I've got some ETB ones I already converted to Eliminators, and I might at least use my other ETB ones to sprinkle into DW (but honestly they'll probably sit in the box for now)

 Super Ready wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Remove Bolt Carbine, give them the 18" Range Heavy Bolt Pistol, give them AP -1 on their Knife natively.
Both weapons are then AP -2 in the Assault Doctrine.

This just makes them inferior Assault Intercessors, though. Granted they have the grapnel gun, grav-chutes and Ld modifier, but none of that makes up for ObSec.

Maybe they should have just made Reivers better, than make Assault Intercessors. Or make Assault Intercessors FA and have other bonus' instead of ObSec

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Remove Bolt Carbine, give them the 18" Range Heavy Bolt Pistol, give them AP -1 on their Knife natively.
Both weapons are then AP -2 in the Assault Doctrine.

This just makes them inferior Assault Intercessors, though. Granted they have the grapnel gun, grav-chutes and Ld modifier, but none of that makes up for ObSec.

Maybe they should have just made Reivers better, than make Assault Intercessors. Or make Assault Intercessors FA and have other bonus' instead of ObSec

They're literally just Intercessors though. What rules are you gonna add?
If anything the real problem is making them a separate entry when they managed to cram all the rules for both of them under the Vet Intercessor profile.