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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Thing is it depends how the product is delivered and if "building" remains part of the hobby in itself.

If that remains then it doesn't really matter to the customer if the box has parts cast by a 3D printer or with regular resin/metal/plastic casting. There will still be clean-up aspects (though in theory advances in 3D printing will continue to reduce these).

Plus parts instead of whole sculpts, even with a 3D printer, allows for variety of options/posing and a variety of poses that are not practical/possible to cast/print.



The real area that might grow is pre-made models.

   
Made in us
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds





Eh, there are folks who vastly prefer sculpting by hand and I think that will always be a thing (honestly, I don't see digital work as 'replacing' traditional sculpting but more as something entirely different. Like, the explosion of cheap and decent 3d printing has been massive but the traditional sculpting community/market has neither really shrunk nor grown in response.)
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

 joseph_curwen wrote:
Eh, there are folks who vastly prefer sculpting by hand and I think that will always be a thing


I think you're likely right there. I'm sure some smaller shops will stick with "traditional" sculpting, and staying with resin casting (or even metal) for quite a long time, if not "forever." At the same time, I do think that we'll start seeing more "direct 3d print production" for some shops as the tech and costs of resin 3d printing are starting to converge with the costs of resin casting. Will every shop do it? No, but we might start seeing more one- and two-person producers going this route.
   
Made in us
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds





Especially when it comes to larger scale figures meant more for painting than gaming.
(And I definitely agree with yr second part, especially as printer speeds get faster and costs come down. I also think we might see something like the print on demand companies that exist in the publishing industry arise in 3d printing.)
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

 joseph_curwen wrote:
Especially when it comes to larger scale figures meant more for painting than gaming.
(And I definitely agree with yr second part, especially as printer speeds get faster and costs come down. I also think we might see something like the print on demand companies that exist in the publishing industry arise in 3d printing.)
Shapeways (and possibly a couple of others) are trying to do that 3d print on demand service now, but frankly, they're too damn expensive for it. I'm sure the next couple of years will see some challenges to them, though, so the service as a whole may become more viable.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Overread wrote:


Granted with 3D you could argue that if the market expands you could offset that by selling files, however from what I can see selling files seems to work for one-man designer bands, but might not work for a group wanting to do more. Ergo making and producing a game as opposed to just casting creative projects. There's also the issue there of significantly reduced repeat sales per customer for a game system (you only get to sell a trooper once per customer).


I am not that sure if the "you only get to sell a tropper once per customer" would really happen considering that most wargamers want variety in their armies and deeply dislike monopose...

Sure a customer could buy one tropper and make infinite copies of it, but all would be monopose. A more probable scenario would be a customer buying several 3D files of troppers in diferent poses.

I suppose for a digital designer once he have the basic tropper done it must be quite easy and cheap to make multiple 3D variants of the basic tropper combining poses, weeapons, gears, etc. Since he is just selling 3D files his costs would still be minimal compared to a traditional casting company.

I would say that is already happening: I am currently checking an option to buy a "SM look alike" 3D package that for US$ 20 would give me modular files for :

- 4 close combat tropper models
- 3 long range tropper models
- 2 elite tropper models
- Bases, variant weapons, gear, helmets, etc. fully combinable.

Not a bad deal for me (if I can secure a cheap/good 3D printer), and I suppose it is a good deal for those guys too.


   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





United States

 Overread wrote:
I wonder how much difference there is in operator input when it comes to scaling things up. Small scale I suspect the costs might be approaching a point where its not dissimilar; I think the real test is how easily the system scales up. Ergo once you are no longer making a dozen a week but perhaps dozens every day to keep up with demand.

Granted with 3D you could argue that if the market expands you could offset that by selling files, however from what I can see selling files seems to work for one-man designer bands, but might not work for a group wanting to do more. Ergo making and producing a game as opposed to just casting creative projects. There's also the issue there of significantly reduced repeat sales per customer for a game system (you only get to sell a trooper once per customer).


Speaking as co-operator of a printing service, demand is tricky. some days we have 30 orders, some days 0

and then other weeks a company wants 5 thousand units of their product shipped to them in 3 weeks

I play: AOS Death, AOS Cities of Sigmar, 40K imperial soup.

I make bases, movement trays, texture material, and other items.

myself and a business partner also rent out our 3D printers. if you need print time, message me. 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

I am not that sure if the "you only get to sell a tropper once per customer" would really happen considering that most wargamers want variety in their armies and deeply dislike monopose...

Sure a customer could buy one tropper and make infinite copies of it, but all would be monopose. A more probable scenario would be a customer buying several 3D files of troppers in diferent poses.


This is a silly and nonsensical argument. 3d printable minis don't need to be monopose (in fact, the best 3d printable stuff out there *isn't* monopose), sculptors and designers are more than capable of designing minis that require minimal assembly that can have varying poses. In any case, it doesn't change anything - whether I'm buying 10 individual 3d printable Intercessors or 1 set of 10 3D printable intercessors it doesn't make a difference. If GW can sell the average customer four $60 boxes of plastic intercessors today, they would need to price the 3D printable set of 10 at $240 or each of the 10 individual marines at $24 for EACH of the 10 minis in order for them to maintain their profit margins on the sale.

Anyway, I think I've d-q'd the Elegoo Saturn from consideration for my "fleet printer", it looks like Elegoo is having production and QA issues and it looks to be the slowest of the 4k printers. I'm down to the Anycubic Photon Mono X and the Phrozen Sonic Mighty 4k (which I only recently started looking into), I'm leaning towards the Phrozen for the special they have with the Curing station and because the Photon doesn't have any Chitubox compatability. Will proably be placing an order for 3 printers by the end of the year (starting out small, will scale up based on demand).

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
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Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

chaos0xomega wrote:


Anyway, I think I've d-q'd the Elegoo Saturn from consideration for my "fleet printer", it looks like Elegoo is having production and QA issues and it looks to be the slowest of the 4k printers. I'm down to the Anycubic Photon Mono X and the Phrozen Sonic Mighty 4k (which I only recently started looking into), I'm leaning towards the Phrozen for the special they have with the Curing station and because the Photon doesn't have any Chitubox compatability. Will proably be placing an order for 3 printers by the end of the year (starting out small, will scale up based on demand).
The Saturn does seem to be having some issues right now, which I think is common for first run of almost any machine.

I just ordered a Phrozen Sonic Mini 4K, because its resolution is nuts. Yes, smaller build area, but at the moment that's not a concern for me. If I were doing terrain, then I'd likely do the Phrozen Sonic Mighty 4k (or hold off until they do an 8k, which is probably at least a year out if I had to guess). The non-Chitubox software requirement for the Photon (it apparently requires the Photon Slicer software even if you do support work in Chitu, which can be done) doesn't run on Linux, so that's a mild deal breaker for me.
   
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

Wait, so can you do your work in Chitu, export/import into the Photon Slicer and then export whatever their proprietary print format is and go from there? Because it seems the major complaint from Photon users is that the slicer doesn't have as many tools or features as Chitu and what features it does have don't work nearly as well. The main reason I want to use Chitu is for the ease of shelling solids and putting holes into the prints, as well as the supports, but if I can run all that through Chitu and then pump it through the Photon slicer then I suppose its a slightly inefficient but viable workflow.

As for resolution, yeah - for terrain I need the bigger build plate, even the Mighty is on the small side for some of my designs so I'm going to have to subdivide parts to get them to fit etc. Once I get into non-terrain items I may diversify into smaller higher resolution printers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 21:32:15


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Seattle, WA USA

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wait, so can you do your work in Chitu, export/import into the Photon Slicer and then export whatever their proprietary print format is and go from there? Because it seems the major complaint from Photon users is that the slicer doesn't have as many tools or features as Chitu and what features it does have don't work nearly as well. The main reason I want to use Chitu is for the ease of shelling solids and putting holes into the prints, as well as the supports, but if I can run all that through Chitu and then pump it through the Photon slicer then I suppose its a slightly inefficient but viable workflow.

As for resolution, yeah - for terrain I need the bigger build plate, even the Mighty is on the small side for some of my designs so I'm going to have to subdivide parts to get them to fit etc. Once I get into non-terrain items I may diversify into smaller higher resolution printers.
I've heard people say they can do stuff in Chitu, and I think save as an STL and import int Photon Slicer. I haven't done it, though, so can't speak to how valid it is.
   
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Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







As recommended by someone on here, I have been using Prusas slicer to set up supports, save it as an stl with supports and just using Anycubic software to do the final slicing.

Works fine, so it's just down to the comparative utility of doing the whole thing in chitubix compared to a short extra step to switch software to do the final slice.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Longtime Dakkanaut






Maybe after 2ish years. At least until quality printers, like the ones FW or other larger miniature companies already use for their masters, become available for affordable price. And I mean printers, that can actually print large enough stuff. Now, a good enough printer is 4k+ euros. And I'd guess that one would need at least 3 of those, to keep producing as one is simply not enough, so that's like 12-13k investment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 14:20:50


   
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It really depends on the time frame that you are talking about. IMHO the technology is pretty close to where a 3D printer can print out what you want at the quality that you want with a comparable medium to the plastic miniatures that we used to buy from GW, but not there yet exactly for my taste for regular miniatures. BFG however seems to be there. I have a print shop that is down the street that I think can do 3D printing for me, likewise the main library at my location can do the same thing I believe. In the next year I am going to be looking into getting a fleet or two printed out for me.

One of these days I can imagine that the LGS's would rather invest in a 3D printer and sell you the miniatures than take all of that space and spend all of that inventory money on what you see on the wall at the store. When will all this happen? You guess is as good as mine, but I will probably see it happen before I die.
   
Made in ca
Master Tormentor






St. Louis

 CragHack wrote:
Maybe after 2ish years. At least until quality printers, like the ones FW or other larger miniature companies already use for their masters, become available for affordable price. And I mean printers, that can actually print large enough stuff. Now, a good enough printer is 4k+ euros. And I'd guess that one would need at least 3 of those, to keep producing as one is simply not enough, so that's like 12-13k investment.

You can print "large enough stuff" (by which I mean entire land raiders or sizeable chunks of Warlord) on a $400 printer right now.
   
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Norn Queen






 Laughing Man wrote:
 CragHack wrote:
Maybe after 2ish years. At least until quality printers, like the ones FW or other larger miniature companies already use for their masters, become available for affordable price. And I mean printers, that can actually print large enough stuff. Now, a good enough printer is 4k+ euros. And I'd guess that one would need at least 3 of those, to keep producing as one is simply not enough, so that's like 12-13k investment.

You can print "large enough stuff" (by which I mean entire land raiders or sizeable chunks of Warlord) on a $400 printer right now.
Ones that don't look like a layer cake? SLA printing is fiddly, slow, and inconvenient, and FDM printers can't do small models.

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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 CragHack wrote:
Maybe after 2ish years. At least until quality printers, like the ones FW or other larger miniature companies already use for their masters, become available for affordable price. And I mean printers, that can actually print large enough stuff. Now, a good enough printer is 4k+ euros. And I'd guess that one would need at least 3 of those, to keep producing as one is simply not enough, so that's like 12-13k investment.

You can print "large enough stuff" (by which I mean entire land raiders or sizeable chunks of Warlord) on a $400 printer right now.
Ones that don't look like a layer cake? SLA printing is fiddly, slow, and inconvenient, and FDM printers can't do small models.


I mean, the biggest thing I've printed on resin has been a Deimos Predator. And I did it on a regular Anycubic Photon.

So, to the first question: yes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 01:19:32


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




My opinion is it will be an augmented workflow.

So here's scenario A: hand sculpt master, 3d scan point cloud, mesh clean up, detail work/ rigging, 3d print.

Scenario B: 3D sculpt/CAD, prototype, 3d print, correct, 3d print, invert print to make mold box, 3d print mold, cast resin/metal.

Scenario C: Sculpt/CAD, Create tooling, 3D print, injection molding prototype, verify, CAM, Machine, Injection molding.

3D printing can be used to rapidly produce proof of concepts that can be altered more inexpensively than standard machining practices. This will be utilized on large scale to reduce cost and create higher quality products for end users. It can be used the same way for small scale. The master can be used to produce multiple molds or a 3d printed tooling that has been proven to withstand up to 5 shots at pressure and maintain quality. I know people who 3D print masters for wax casting to produce one offs professionally. It's not going to go one way or the other it's going to reduce costs of those who are already in the field it's just another tool in their belt.
   
Made in ca
Master Tormentor






St. Louis

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 CragHack wrote:
Maybe after 2ish years. At least until quality printers, like the ones FW or other larger miniature companies already use for their masters, become available for affordable price. And I mean printers, that can actually print large enough stuff. Now, a good enough printer is 4k+ euros. And I'd guess that one would need at least 3 of those, to keep producing as one is simply not enough, so that's like 12-13k investment.

You can print "large enough stuff" (by which I mean entire land raiders or sizeable chunks of Warlord) on a $400 printer right now.
Ones that don't look like a layer cake? SLA printing is fiddly, slow, and inconvenient, and FDM printers can't do small models.

...SLA printing is lightning fast, especially current generation printers with monochromatic LCDs. You can print a Baneblade in a bit more than a day on a Saturn or Mono X.
   
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Norn Queen






Can you give an example of a "current" generation printer? As far as I can see stuff like the Photon take about 6 hours to print even the test model. Anything beyond that is going to take up the majority of the day, and that's not accounting for prep and post-processing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 17:00:49


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Master Tormentor






St. Louis

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can you give an example of a "current" generation printer? As far as I can see stuff like the Photon take about 6 hours to print even the test model. Anything beyond that is going to take up the majority of the day, and that's not accounting for prep and post-processing.

The Photon Mono X, Sonic Mini, Sonic Mini 4k, Saturn, etc. Anything with a mono screen counts, with the higher end 4K machines generally being top of the line either in bed size (Saturn, Mono X, Sonic Mega) or resolution (Sonic Mini 4K). In general, they reduce layer times from around 10 seconds to about 2 seconds.

Also, I'm not sure what your expectations are that "I printed a tank in a day" is slow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 17:23:44


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

The photon mono x can print its volume (~240mm/9.xyz" tall) in 4 hours, so... not really sure what you're talking about.

Mind you, thats at the minimum resolution of .15mm layer thickness, if you're printing a baneblade or anything "hard surface" its fine. If you're trying to print a 10" tall dragon you'll have to dial up the resolution a bit at which point that 4 hour print becomes 8 or even 12 - but thats a FAR cry from "6 hours for a test model" - by which I assume you mean to refer to something 2 or 3" tall at most.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 17:25:26


This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in ca
Master Tormentor






St. Louis

chaos0xomega wrote:
The photon mono x can print its volume (~240mm/9.xyz" tall) in 4 hours, so... not really sure what you're talking about.

Mind you, thats at the minimum resolution of .15mm layer thickness, if you're printing a baneblade or anything "hard surface" its fine. If you're trying to print a 10" tall dragon you'll have to dial up the resolution a bit at which point that 4 hour print becomes 8 or even 12 - but thats a FAR cry from "6 hours for a test model" - by which I assume you mean to refer to something 2 or 3" tall at most.

I generally go with 50 micron layers for vehicles and 20 or 30 microns for infantry models. I generally don't have prints that take longer than 3 or 4 hours on my Sonic Mini at those resolutions, although I admittedly print vehicles in parts rather than as a single piece (partially because of the Sonic Mini's smaller print bed, partially because none of the good STLs are single piece sculpts).
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Laughing Man wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can you give an example of a "current" generation printer? As far as I can see stuff like the Photon take about 6 hours to print even the test model. Anything beyond that is going to take up the majority of the day, and that's not accounting for prep and post-processing.

The Photon Mono X, Sonic Mini, Sonic Mini 4k, Saturn, etc. Anything with a mono screen counts, with the higher end 4K machines generally being top of the line either in bed size (Saturn, Mono X, Sonic Mega) or resolution (Sonic Mini 4K). In general, they reduce layer times from around 10 seconds to about 2 seconds.

Also, I'm not sure what your expectations are that "I printed a tank in a day" is slow.
I didn't say "I printed a tank in a day" is slow. That isn't slow. But SLA printing requires a lot more effort than FDM printing.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 9th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 Laughing Man wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
The photon mono x can print its volume (~240mm/9.xyz" tall) in 4 hours, so... not really sure what you're talking about.

Mind you, thats at the minimum resolution of .15mm layer thickness, if you're printing a baneblade or anything "hard surface" its fine. If you're trying to print a 10" tall dragon you'll have to dial up the resolution a bit at which point that 4 hour print becomes 8 or even 12 - but thats a FAR cry from "6 hours for a test model" - by which I assume you mean to refer to something 2 or 3" tall at most.

I generally go with 50 micron layers for vehicles and 20 or 30 microns for infantry models. I generally don't have prints that take longer than 3 or 4 hours on my Sonic Mini at those resolutions, although I admittedly print vehicles in parts rather than as a single piece (partially because of the Sonic Mini's smaller print bed, partially because none of the good STLs are single piece sculpts).


Depending on the tank design you probably *don't* need to be printing at so fine a resolution. Even .1mm is overkill for a lot of them (though there are definitely some that are really well designed and intricate that will benefit from going smaller).

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
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Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can you give an example of a "current" generation printer? As far as I can see stuff like the Photon take about 6 hours to print even the test model. Anything beyond that is going to take up the majority of the day, and that's not accounting for prep and post-processing.

The Photon Mono X, Sonic Mini, Sonic Mini 4k, Saturn, etc. Anything with a mono screen counts, with the higher end 4K machines generally being top of the line either in bed size (Saturn, Mono X, Sonic Mega) or resolution (Sonic Mini 4K). In general, they reduce layer times from around 10 seconds to about 2 seconds.

Also, I'm not sure what your expectations are that "I printed a tank in a day" is slow.
I didn't say "I printed a tank in a day" is slow. That isn't slow. But SLA printing requires a lot more effort than FDM printing.
Eh, I don't think there's much difference in "effort" on FDM vs SLA/MSLA/DLP. Figuring out support structures is different between the two, sure, but I don't see either as really being more effort than the other there. Hassles with leveling print bed and so on are about the same in my experience, too. There is a touch more cleanup on resin prints, but once you have a system down and are familiar with it, it's about the same when you compare that to an FDM cleanup, where you still have to clean the print itself for any spaghetti strands.

Also, there is a pretty big print time difference between SLA and MSLA/DLP. SLA printers, like the Form 3, draw layers out with a laser, so the more stuff on that layer, the longer it takes as the laser has to actually move around (this is very akin to an extrusion printer's method of moving the nozzle around). MSLA/DLP expose the whole layer at once, so it doesn't matter what all is on that layer, they all take the same amount of time. You can get a little bit nicer curves done in SLA, and maybe very slightly better resolution than the current gen of Mono MSLA printers (e.g. Form 3 is I think 27um, while a Phrozen Sonic Mini 4k is at 35um for x-y), but at a much higher cost and little longer average time per layer.

My question to you is this: Have you used an FDM printer and a resin printer and found significant differences, or is this supposition? (I don't mean to be combative, honest question, because I have used both a little and to me, there wasn't significant difference in "effort" of cleaning up prints for either. Different, yes.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/10 19:18:20


 
   
Made in ca
Master Tormentor






St. Louis

Honestly, I've found that FDM printers usually require more cleanup, with bottom layers usually requiring filling to smooth them out before painting. At most, SLA/DLP prints just require some sanding to remove support marks, at least once they've been rinsed and cured.
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 BaconCatBug wrote:
Can you give an example of a "current" generation printer? As far as I can see stuff like the Photon take about 6 hours to print even the test model. Anything beyond that is going to take up the majority of the day, and that's not accounting for prep and post-processing.


Photon's test mode took 2 hours in mine?

6-9 hours prints are for stuff like this



...which is as long as an AT Reaver titan is tall.

And as I said, that's on a first gen Photon. on a monochrome one, that would take probably about 4-5 hours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Valander wrote:
Eh, I don't think there's much difference in "effort" on FDM vs SLA/MSLA/DLP. Figuring out support structures is different between the two, sure, but I don't see either as really being more effort than the other there. Hassles with leveling print bed and so on are about the same in my experience, too. There is a touch more cleanup on resin prints, but once you have a system down and are familiar with it, it's about the same when you compare that to an FDM cleanup, where you still have to clean the print itself for any spaghetti strands.

IME, FDM printing is much fiddlier, and supports removal and post production is much lenghtier and... annoying. Over the years I've had two FDM printers and two DLP ones.

I'm using water washable resins as of late, and well... the difference is stark.

For example, the above THawk? That had a LOT of supports, because I usually oversupport my prints. After cleaning the excess resin off on an ultrasonic cleaner, I dunked the model in a tupper with hot water, let it soak about 30 seconds and yanked all the supports off with my bare gloves xD. Then 5 minutes under an UV light and about 5 minutes of sandong down some of the supports' marks. That's it. My experiences with FDM printing is that it's great for scenery and the like and for mostly supportless stuff, but the moment you have to deal with supports things get annoying, fast.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/12/10 20:13:08


 
   
 
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