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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Canadian 5th wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Are you saying that 10ppm is accurate to represent current Reaver rules?

To say that you'd have to argue that points are primarily a balancing force rather than a framework for putting your dudes on the table and I'm not sure GW has ever had rules robust enough to support that view.


No you don't. You just have to show that points are used as a balancing factor, not that it's their primary purpose. We can pretty easily see they are used for this purpose by referring to the many points changes GW made for balance reasons in CA during 8th edition.

Canadian 5th wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I mean, not really... tournaments have to be organized, it's not like 30 people spontaneously turn up at an LGS on the day of and magically have a tournament. I have never been part of a tournament that doesn't give any sort of FAQ or at least set of rules. In this day and age, it's easier than ever.

That's not what I said the issue was. The issue is how fast can we expect them to react to an 'incorrect' ruling by GW and does that give enough time for players to react and change their lists to meet these new unofficial changes to the game? It's one thing to run your own mission pack and to exclude content that dropped a few days before the event but rather another to start taking a red pen to GWs official rules.


Apparently at least one player had enough time to react to this change by cramming 21 Reavers into his list. Everyone at the tournament was using the new CA points costs, so presumably everyone was able to react in time to those changes. For the record, the various DE groups I know of reacted to this within about 30 minutes of the changes being published. It's not like it was some hidden secret uncovered at the last moment before the tournament. Bespoke tournament mission packs and painting guidelines/rules are common enough as well. There's absolutely no issue with a TO from a logistical or gaming POV deciding to make adjustments to the game if they so wish. More than one did so with Obliterators, IIRC, and that obvious typo was - shock, horror! - fixed in exactly the way everyone predicted when GW eventually got around to it. TOs are basically the dictators of their own tournament and they're entirely within their rights to make any ruling they want. Running the tournament gives them the right to alter whatever they want. If they go too far they'll probably find themselves with no players but there's nothing stopping them making these decisions. It's entirely a matter of opinion as to whether they should have made the change to Reaver points or not. Given how successful one DE army was that was taking advantage of this update, maybe they made the wrong call?
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

10ppm Reavers is an obvious typo, those bikers are enhanced Wyches and Wyches cost 10ppm.

It reminds me on when SW had Obj Sec on everything, someone spotted the loophole and got great results at some tournament, and some people didn't realize (or want to admit) that was clearly a mistake. Which was in fact fixed almost immediately.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Its only a game so wouldn't go nuts - but it is easy for a tournament to go "this is clearly a typo, any lists involving this unit must pay X points". But the organiser has to be aware of the issue and they may not have been (or not especially cared in any case).

The "how do you know" is the sort of mentality that tried to maintain GSC Neophytes were 55 points, because... well its in Chapter Approved and "maybe its intentional". Obvious mistakes are obvious.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/22 10:47:04


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


There's an old canard about defining pornography (maybe apocryphal, but I think by a Supreme Court justice): "I know it when I see it". The whole point of TOs is to be that "I know it when I see it" arbiter. Could they get it wrong? Yeah. Is it better than the system of GW's lips to god's ears? Also yeah.


I can give you a few examples of stuff being costed, over costed to be precise, and not being change by GW in a FAQ/CA/Errata year after year, sometimes it hit entire armies. So the the whole argument of it is clearly a typo, and there for we should use some other value, pulled out of thin air seems one that doesn't have much support historically. Does GW not giving all loyalist marines 2W is a type too, or should those that don't have 2W be made cheaper till they get their +1W?

rules and laws don't stop to work, just because they are stupid and people don't like them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
Its only a game so wouldn't go nuts - but it is easy for a tournament to go "this is clearly a typo, any lists involving this unit must pay X points". But the organiser has to be aware of the issue and they may not have been (or not especially cared in any case).

The "how do you know" is the sort of mentality that tried to maintain GSC Neophytes were 55 points, because... well its in Chapter Approved and "maybe its intentional". Obvious mistakes are obvious.


If it was a type, then how long would it take GW to change the entry in a FAQ? Lets say three days, one day to inform boss about the error, one day for the boss to give order to fix it, and one day to implement the change. If GW really felt it was an error, they work very fast. Sometimes they change books, before they even get to the stores like the old space wolf codex. They even have a facebook and twitter, it would take minutes for someone to write that the point cost is different.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/22 11:02:20


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in eu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

For the DE Reaver points, they may just not be bothering because the new codex is due out any minute now, which will supercede the current points and will presumably(!) be correct.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Crispy78 wrote:
For the DE Reaver points, they may just not be bothering because the new codex is due out any minute now, which will supercede the current points and will presumably(!) be correct.


March is hardly "any minute now," dude.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

In my experience GW would rather let an issue fester for 2 months than admit they messed up like this.
   
Made in eu
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

 Dysartes wrote:
Crispy78 wrote:
For the DE Reaver points, they may just not be bothering because the new codex is due out any minute now, which will supercede the current points and will presumably(!) be correct.


March is hardly "any minute now," dude.


It is back to March now? I hadn't heard March, I thought they were due January but I imagine were delayed because Death Guard was delayed. Didn't know any time-frame beyond that had been mentioned.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Last I heard, DG had gone to Jan from Dec, DA to Feb from Jan and DE to March from Jan.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

Australia has always had a weird meta in every game. like I don't think they ever follow the trend that everyone else does across the world. Unfortunately that also means you can easily discount anything they do because it doesn't follow the trends elsewhere

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/22 12:06:00


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





I don't think this is super surprising personally. We know quins, demon's and sisters have joined the marines at the top table. The new codex tuned marines down to a much better level, they still got 5th in a meta where everyone is expecting to play them and has come equipped to do so. The fact that they are still near the top despite others gearing up for them suggests they're not going anywhere, especially when deathguard are coming and making damage 2 weapons much less attractive which could help marines in turn.

 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Tyranids top 5, this I like.


To everyone crying about FW making tyranids good, just keep walking.
Nids have always had the short straw and even more so with their FW units.
They have always been giant resin paper weights that instantly handicap you in tournaments.
It’s about time people got to use them.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not sure it will be useful - but thought I'd break the lists down by faction, using the most points invested. Admittedly some of this might be a push - if you have say 1100 points of Harlequins and 900 CWE, I've said its a Harlequin list. 1100 odd points of Daemons+Magnus, Ahriman and some cultists=Daemons list. This isn't that common but it means the winning list is just Daemons in this list, the second Harlequins etc etc.

Factions Lists
Marines 17
Daemons 8
Necrons 8
Custodes 7
Sisters 6
Tau 5
Harlequins 4
Tyranids 4
IG 4
Orks 3
Dark Eldar 2
Death Guard 2
CWE 2
CSM 2
GSC 2
Chaos Knights 1
Ad Mech 1
Thousand Sons 1
Grey Knights 1

Of the 17 Marines you had:
Black Templar 2
Death Watch 3
Space Wolves 2
White Scars 2
Dark Angels 3
Raven Guard 1
Blood Angels 2
Salamanders 1
Imperial Fists 1

Ultramarines are missing, which is a bit strange as I think they were definitely in there. I guess they may have appeared in soups and were the smaller detachment.

Difficult to say what things would look like - but I feel the few 9th tournaments in Europe and the US have seen maybe twice the number of Marine lists, which obviously increases both the odds of them placing, and their impact on the meta as a whole.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





SM making up a fifth of the entries is really nice to see actually. Considering they are the poster boys and the most-played faction, a fifth is really good representation I think. Also pleased to see that no SM sub-faction seems to be overly represented either.

Would be nice if the faction break down was like this more often.
   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






I see 5 Tau players attending. Do we know if they used the "Montka enables to fallback and shoot" interpretation, or if they went with the "nope, montka doesn't do that" interpretation ?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/22 14:48:32


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

Delete me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/22 17:12:53


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




How much are we accepting tournament results during COVID era out of curiosity?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How much are we accepting tournament results during COVID era out of curiosity?


We shouldn't accept them at all. Especially if those results come from Down Under.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/22 20:08:46


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Blackie wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How much are we accepting tournament results during COVID era out of curiosity?


We shouldn't accept them at all. Especially if those results come from Down Under.


Australia is weird, but not outside the scope of the game. COVID tournaments are interesting, but not definitive. Are all the all-star marine players laying low while others do not? No idea. I would imagine everything is affected proportionally, but you never know. The LVO NOpen should be a fun watch regardless.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I’ll be honest, I’ve never really seen a difference in meta before.

Jumping back to leafblower, lash-oblit, even rhino rush etc, it’s always been used around the world.
I honestly never really knew this was a thing as I’ve only ever seen people in tournaments run meta lists.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Jackal90 wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’ve never really seen a difference in meta before.

Jumping back to leafblower, lash-oblit, even rhino rush etc, it’s always been used around the world.
I honestly never really knew this was a thing as I’ve only ever seen people in tournaments run meta lists.


In the middle of 8th where CW and Knights ran roughshod there was definitely an element of meta lists.

These days I'm quite surprised at the variety of lists.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How much are we accepting tournament results during COVID era out of curiosity?


Looks like it was a genuine tournament with decent attendance so the results are probably as valid as at non-Covid times. The difficulty is in determining how representative of the game as a whole these results are. Without more tournaments to compare with it's difficult to be too defnitive.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Canadian 5th wrote:

To say that you'd have to argue that points are primarily a balancing force rather than a framework for putting your dudes on the table and I'm not sure GW has ever had rules robust enough to support that view.


Whether or not it's by intent it still affects the balance of the game pretty dramatically, smart guy.
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

Hecaton wrote:
Whether or not it's by intent it still affects the balance of the game pretty dramatically, smart guy.

Obviously, but points aren't primarily a balancing factor and if you look at the history of the game they've never done a good job at creating balance. Expecting that now is madness even if GW is open to tweaking points here and there based on tournament results.
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

 Blackie wrote:

We shouldn't accept them at all. Especially if those results come from Down Under.


And especially not when the results don't demonstrate Space Marine superiority because that would damage the narrative.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Canadian 5th wrote:

Obviously, but points aren't primarily a balancing factor and if you look at the history of the game they've never done a good job at creating balance. Expecting that now is madness even if GW is open to tweaking points here and there based on tournament results.


You're not making sense. Whether or not the design team intends for points to be a balancing factor, the points costs of things will have a dramatic impact on the balance of the game.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

We shouldn't accept them at all. Especially if those results come from Down Under.


And especially not when the results don't demonstrate Space Marine superiority because that would damage the narrative.


Well to be honest I NEVER use tournaments data to confirm/damage the narrative. Those data are referred to lists that most of the players will never see in real life, especially non marines lists.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Blackie wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

We shouldn't accept them at all. Especially if those results come from Down Under.


And especially not when the results don't demonstrate Space Marine superiority because that would damage the narrative.


Well to be honest I NEVER use tournaments data to confirm/damage the narrative. Those data are referred to lists that most of the players will never see in real life, especially non marines lists.


That may have been true in 7th, but the lists here are mostly accessible (barring the FW heavy). The winning list is daemonettes and some csm basically.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Lists with 12+ Mortifiers and/or 3x5 Melta Retributors (you need 6 box to get 12 MM), 15+ Meganobz, 12 ork buggies, 18 Skyweavers are not common at all. Not even the Goff greentide is actually that common. All those lists are based on spamming an overperforming unit or two, which is something the majority of the player base avoids because it it gets nerfed basically the entire list become unplayable.

Daemonettes are Slaanesh. I think I've played two or three times against a Slaanesh based army in 20+ years of 40k.

During 8th for some people SM couldn't live without the loyal32 but out of 20+ SM players I regularly face not a single one actually bought the AM dudes and the AM codex to be more competitive. The only guy who fielded the loyal32 + SM already had an AM army. And I've also never seen a Castellan in real life.

Most competitive ork list and the end of 8th was based around 100-150 Gretchins, 10 Flash Gitz and 12+ Smasha Gunz. Of course it has never been real outside a few big events. What about the 5 Stormravens?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/23 13:18:51


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




My countries and Russian recasters were selling too many smash guns for the ork list to not have been popular. They were so popular that Kromlech, started doing their own, and they only do stuff which really sells.

I have never seen a 5 SR list, but I saw 3 eldar lists with more then 3 flyers in 8th ed.

Same with harli 9th ed list, the VH sob list. oddly enough my store, the only difference I got to expiriance is the lack of bladeguard bombs and eradictors, because of how few indomitus we got. But MM attack bikes and Vanvets are very popular.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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