Switch Theme:

Does 9e Feel Like a Game of Chicken?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
The new table size is a multiple of their standard box packaging, which is determined by geometric optimization calculus, not by a desire to make the best possible game)


Are you being sarcastic?


No. Having done packaging engineering before, the mystery behind the bizarre new board size vanished for me the second I saw that the new 40k command edition came with a cardboard mat for combat patrol games.

The new board size is based on the packaging size. 100%.


Ah, ok I read it wrong at first. So basically a cost cutting measure.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
The new table size is a multiple of their standard box packaging, which is determined by geometric optimization calculus, not by a desire to make the best possible game)


Are you being sarcastic?


No. Having done packaging engineering before, the mystery behind the bizarre new board size vanished for me the second I saw that the new 40k command edition came with a cardboard mat for combat patrol games.

The new board size is based on the packaging size. 100%.


Ah, ok I read it wrong at first. So basically a cost cutting measure.


no, it's...it's complicated. basically all boxes that gw wants to ship out are the same length and width so they can ship the maximum number of boxes per crate, and the length and width is determined to ensure that the height of the boxes isn't so tall they can't be stocked on shelves, and it's related to the size of their largest sprues.

I'm in agreement with you about what becomes more or less powerful with the given game board size, just not that the current minimum game board size is driven by any kind of game-related design factor, it isn't in any way. It just has to do with the packaging dimensions that were probably set ages ago, and wanting to be able to ship basically zero cost game mats with every box set they sell as an additional game accessory.


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





I was sure the min size was just because it was the size of the boards they supplied in the starter boxes, which would be the first step for people playing 40k then the larger the game got, the same would be applied to the table.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

I think:
  • The 9th Edition Rules and Kill Team were play-tested around the Kill Team board size
  • The Minimum Board Size is based on the Kill Team board size
  • The Kill Team board size is based on the box size
  • The box size is based on the large sprue dimensions.

  • So you can probably blame the board size on the sprue size, but that doesn't make the size wrong for the game. It is just different from the decades of 4x6. 4x6 isn't magically better than any other specific size, it is just what it used to be.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 23:34:29


     
       
    Made in us
    Regular Dakkanaut






    Going back to 2nd edition - standard for larger games was 8x4 - which is of course the size of a sheet of plywood, which makes building a table much easier. You can rip it down to 4x2 panels as well, and get something transportable. I'm guessing 6x4 evolved from there because it's a little more manageable size wise.

    Want a better 40K?
    Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
     
       
    Made in us
    Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






     alextroy wrote:
    I think:
  • The 9th Edition Rules and Kill Team were play-tested around the Kill Team board size
  • The Minimum Board Size is based on the Kill Team board size
  • The Kill Team board size is based on the box size
  • The box size is based on the large sprue dimensions.

  • So you can probably blame the board size on the sprue size, but that doesn't make the size wrong for the game. It is just different from the decades of 4x6. 4x6 isn't magically better than any other specific size, it is just what it used to be.


    I would argue that reducing the room to maneuver is, in fact, worse for the density of minis that you can cram into a 2k game.

    You almost can't move around until the obligatory everything kills everything else turn.

    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
    Made in ca
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    There was an old WD that showed how to make roads and/or rivers line up on modular 4x2 boards no matter how you oriented them- it was freaking awesome, and it tattooed on my cerebral cortex the first time I saw it.

    It's the idea I've adapted to make my 15" x 15" tiles for 9th. I mocked up 18 tiles in miniature to do a proof of concept test. The number of combinations I can get on Onslaught sized boards is just... staggering.

    My first 6 full sized tiles are almost entirely cut; I should be able to got the rest of the distance in April. That gives me a Combat Patrol sized board, and even with only 6 tiles, there are still a ridiculous number of combinations.
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut





     the_scotsman wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
    I think:
  • The 9th Edition Rules and Kill Team were play-tested around the Kill Team board size
  • The Minimum Board Size is based on the Kill Team board size
  • The Kill Team board size is based on the box size
  • The box size is based on the large sprue dimensions.

  • So you can probably blame the board size on the sprue size, but that doesn't make the size wrong for the game. It is just different from the decades of 4x6. 4x6 isn't magically better than any other specific size, it is just what it used to be.


    I would argue that reducing the room to maneuver is, in fact, worse for the density of minis that you can cram into a 2k game.

    You almost can't move around until the obligatory everything kills everything else turn.


    Some people love standing room only deployment zones. Has a cozy sort of family feel to it.
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Yeah, I agree it feels stupid to have deployment zones so small that hordes literally are base-to-base across the whole zone because there's no room. If they had actually followed through with the whole raising points costs thing they hyped up originally it wouldn't be such a problem, but of course, they've predictably already cut points costs back down to barely above where they were in 8th, and even at launch in 9th the size of the board was cut much more than points costs were raised.

    I'm not saying I think the smaller board size is necessarily a good idea - and it is 100% true the change was not for any reason except box sizes - I'm just pointing out that the game is now set up to be played on that size, and when you don't, it changes the relative value of many things.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 01:20:31


     
       
    Made in au
    Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






    Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

     alextroy wrote:
    4x6 isn't magically better than any other specific size, it is just what it used to be.
    Whilst you are correct that the minimum board size is entirely a product of the limitations of the boxes, GW had no reason to make that the board size for 40k other than wanting to sell their own board and make the 'standard' for 40k something other than what the various mat sellers were making. It's the same reason they upped the base size to a size that no one else was making.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 01:30:45


    Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
    "GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

     
       
    Made in nl
    Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






    your mind

    Of course. GW is commanded by money worshipping bean counters I.e. heretics. So the game changes around econ efficiency for maximal profit not optimal experience.

       
    Made in ie
    Regular Dakkanaut





    Ireland

    Minimum table size is due to the box size? Attempts to corner the market on battlemats by adopting a new standard? Don’t be silly, it’s a plot by Nurgle to reduce social distancing between units. Fiat pestis! Coughs for the cough god! More phlegm for the bath of Nurgle!
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    9th ed is a lot like the tales from the crypt. It may not start out scary but towards the end when all the bloat is upon is, all we will hear is the old hungry cackling of Old GW Crypt Keeper laughing with glee as the new PA books drop down upon us.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 06:50:24


     
       
    Made in it
    Gargantuan Gargant




    Italy

     Daedalus81 wrote:
    the_scotsman wrote:
    Nurglitch wrote:
    Yeah, reading about 9th for a while now and it's weird to see how people are thinking of the measurements given as a standard rather than a minimum.


    Its because there's a large contingent of people who use "tournament standard" as a byline for "I don't have to feel bad about breaking every other unspoken rule of interpersonal conduct that prevails in normal society" so they're verrrrrry invested in making sure every single game is played exactly how it would be played in an organized tournament event where prize money is on the line.



    I don't play minimum, because of prize money. I play minimum, because it changes how the game plays.


    I play minimum because it's basically the exact size of my and my friends' tables at our homes .

    If table looks too crowded no one prevents players to use 1500 points lists.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 07:35:41


    Orks 7000
    Space Wolves 4000
     
       
    Made in gb
    Fixture of Dakka







    PenitentJake wrote:
    There was an old WD that showed how to make roads and/or rivers line up on modular 4x2 boards no matter how you oriented them- it was freaking awesome, and it tattooed on my cerebral cortex the first time I saw it.

    It's the idea I've adapted to make my 15" x 15" tiles for 9th. I mocked up 18 tiles in miniature to do a proof of concept test. The number of combinations I can get on Onslaught sized boards is just... staggering.

    My first 6 full sized tiles are almost entirely cut; I should be able to got the rest of the distance in April. That gives me a Combat Patrol sized board, and even with only 6 tiles, there are still a ridiculous number of combinations.


    Just touching on this for a second - if you're not already doing a PLOG for this project, please consider doing so.

    2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

    My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

    Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


     Kanluwen wrote:
    This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

    Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
       
    Made in de
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Warhammer World itself did some tournaments on 4x4 tables all throughout 8th edition. I know Warhammer World aren't the rules writers, but it's not a new thing that a lot of independent tournaments always strife to be more catholic than the pope on the various recommendations and guidelines GW puts out for the game (aside from the "golden rule", which they all ignore).

       
    Made in au
    Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






    Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

     Horla wrote:
    Minimum table size is due to the box size?
    That's precisely why their tiles are the size they are. Their standard boxes don't accommodate 1x1 shapes, and it has influenced every board release they have made. It's what makes this such an anomaly. It's not some vast underhanded conspiracy; it's just the limitations of their production parameters. Nothing more sinister than that.

     Horla wrote:
    Attempts to corner the market on battlemats by adopting a new standard?
    We're not being silly. That is 100% what GW does.

    Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
    "GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

     
       
    Made in ie
    Regular Dakkanaut





    Ireland

     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Horla wrote:
    Minimum table size is due to the box size?
    That's precisely why their tiles are the size they are. Their standard boxes don't accommodate 1x1 shapes, and it has influenced every board release they have made. It's what makes this such an anomaly. It's not some vast underhanded conspiracy; it's just the limitations of their production parameters. Nothing more sinister than that.

     Horla wrote:
    Attempts to corner the market on battlemats by adopting a new standard?
    We're not being silly. That is 100% what GW does.

    I was just making a social distancing joke.
       
    Made in au
    Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






    Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

     Horla wrote:
    I was just making a social distancing joke.
    Stay away from me.












    Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
    "GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

     
       
    Made in gb
    Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





    "GW under fire for not implementing mandatory social distancing in new edition of Warhammer 40k".
       
    Made in ie
    Regular Dakkanaut





    Ireland

     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Horla wrote:
    I was just making a social distancing joke.
    Stay away from me.

    We can’t break unit coherency!
       
    Made in us
    Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





    Don't worry, we're all Independent Characters.
       
    Made in us
    Confessor Of Sins




    Tacoma, WA, USA

    the_scotsman wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
    I think:
  • The 9th Edition Rules and Kill Team were play-tested around the Kill Team board size
  • The Minimum Board Size is based on the Kill Team board size
  • The Kill Team board size is based on the box size
  • The box size is based on the large sprue dimensions.

  • So you can probably blame the board size on the sprue size, but that doesn't make the size wrong for the game. It is just different from the decades of 4x6. 4x6 isn't magically better than any other specific size, it is just what it used to be.


    I would argue that reducing the room to maneuver is, in fact, worse for the density of minis that you can cram into a 2k game.

    You almost can't move around until the obligatory everything kills everything else turn.
    Funny thing. The same time GW provided the smaller minimum suggested board size they also changed coherency to make units more compact and increased the points cost of models to put less on the board at the same point level. It's almost like they had a plan
    H.B.M.C. wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
    4x6 isn't magically better than any other specific size, it is just what it used to be.
    Whilst you are correct that the minimum board size is entirely a product of the limitations of the boxes, GW had no reason to make that the board size for 40k other than wanting to sell their own board and make the 'standard' for 40k something other than what the various mat sellers were making. It's the same reason they upped the base size to a size that no one else was making.
    It took the various mat makers weeks to months to adjust to the new board sizes. I can't image the board size change helped GW gain much market share.
       
     
    Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
    Go to: