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Made in us
Wicked Ghast




 Xenomancers wrote:
Those were the days man - if they rolled a 6 you lost 1 model in a unit. Now days...you spend 1 Cp and you lose a whole unit.

Shoot at a unit of scatter bikes and they jink to get a 4+ save and hit on 6's the next turn and can't really hurt you. Now...you shoot at a unit of chaff infantry and they get 2+ saves.

Man this game totally blows now.


arent you one of the dudes that bitches about imbalance a lot? Like, the whole 100% win with admech vs anything infantry? Seems like you only miss imbalance when it blatantly favors your armies.

But, that's the rub with balance, we all love it as long as it happens to the other guy's army.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
The chance is not 1 in 6, it's 1 in 180. Add void shields and you are looking at 1260 grot blasters each shooting once to plonk off a single wound of the smallest titan on average, 3420 for a warlord titan.

The most commonly used argument for this being a problem is hyperbole. Take that away and the problem disappears.


i am more talking about a shadowsword or imperial knight equivilant less the actually should be in apocolypse only stuff. i meant just the to wound roll to be 1 in 6, but vs a bog standard knight warden or something. grot hits on 4+, then 1 in 6 to wound, and the knight saves 2/3 of the wounds. so through the whole sequence its almost a 3% chance to wound so admitadly not game breaking but still something about a lasgun or a grot gun actually damaging them. maybe my referring to imperial knights as titans is the confusion.


So 3 unsaved wounds to cause 1 dmg, wounding on 6s means 18 hits, BS4 means 36 shots required. A Grot is currently 1 shot at 12' for 5pts. Meaning, to strip 1 Wound off a Knight (or any vehicle of T6+ sv3+) you would require 36 grots or 180pts.

If people are actually concerned about small arms fire plinking wounds off a vehicle, they should probably run the math themselves to see that its not an issue.

Another great complaint ive seen in the tank thread is that bolters and such should be nerfed vs vehicles as well. Even buffed with -1AP its going to take 9 bolter shots to strip 1 wound off a T5+ vehicle with a 3+ save. That means if they are rapid firing it would take 4.5 Marines to inflict 1 dmg. Minimum you are talking about 81pts, significantly more cost effective than the grots but not game breaking in the slightest.

I like the anything can wound anything mechanic because it opened up more avenues of 5+ to wound scenarios while also making weapons that fire a ridiculous number of shots at least somewhat scary to heavier units. I mean, in real life terms, look at the GAU-8 that things fires a 30mm round and can defeat tank armor to a degree. Keeping in mind that most modern battle tanks roam around the battlefield with a 120mm Main gun.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Sterling191 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
What chaff infantry gets 2+ saves?

The only one I can think of is Sisters of Battle in cover, who only MAYBE qualify as chaff. And if you have AP, then they don't get a 2+ anymore unless they're Valorous Heart.


Skitarii can do it a few ways.


Well..one way, anyway, AFAIK. Mars skitarii can do the +1sv -3" move doctrine and shroudpsalm to start in cover, and then they can take a 100-point buffer model to give one unit ignore AP-1/AP-2.

When presented with this tactic, you can

1) ignore it, realize that they can only do it one turn and the Ignore AP modifier is only on one unit, and play defensively instead of trying to alpha strike through the defensive buffs

2) fire some blast weaponry at the skitarii anyway, because you get max shots and theyre still only T3 W1.

I didnt have to deal with this combo in the game I played against admech, because my opponent went first so all the offensive buffs were up on them when I killed the big bad skitarii blocks, but I have seen a game with the same person where he did go second, did drop the combo and his opponent just went "OK, I'm still gonna just shoot you with this Executioner tank commander then, have 18 un-overcharged plasma shots."

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




 the_scotsman wrote:


Well..one way, anyway, AFAIK. Mars skitarii can do the +1sv -3" move doctrine and shroudpsalm to start in cover, and then they can take a 100-point buffer model to give one unit ignore AP-1/AP-2.

When presented with this tactic, you can

1) ignore it, realize that they can only do it one turn and the Ignore AP modifier is only on one unit, and play defensively instead of trying to alpha strike through the defensive buffs

2) fire some blast weaponry at the skitarii anyway, because you get max shots and theyre still only T3 W1.

I didnt have to deal with this combo in the game I played against admech, because my opponent went first so all the offensive buffs were up on them when I killed the big bad skitarii blocks, but I have seen a game with the same person where he did go second, did drop the combo and his opponent just went "OK, I'm still gonna just shoot you with this Executioner tank commander then, have 18 un-overcharged plasma shots."


And this would be a key difference between people complaining about a new rule without playing against it, or even seeing it, and not. A lot of those buffs come at a cost, are single use, or have significant drawbacks. its good enough to be scary, and shouldnt be ignored, but its also not as good as people think they are.
   
Made in us
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 Jidmah wrote:
Xeno's actual opinion on 7th:

Drop pods OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/632112.page
Land speeder storm OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/633401.page
Warp storm table OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/638472.page
Daemons OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/698196.page
So, not so different from his opinion on 9th

From what I can tell from a quick glance at his post history during 7th, he essentially started with eldar and switched armies multiple times to GK, tau and marines. Considering this, it's somehow unsurprising that he doesn't feel like 7th was a bad edition.
9th's vastly improved balance no longer allows you to just buy the most recent hot stuff and start winning games despite a total lack of skills, so I guess he just misses the time when his original army - eldar - were good.

So, I honestly wish you good luck in getting an eldar codex that allows to have fun playing your army again. You'll still have to work for your wins though.

That was some serious effort to dig up some history buddy.

Just so you know. Demonic incursion Daemons were probably the most broken army in the formation age (next to ynnari ofc). Coming out near the end - it didn't last long...Index 40k was right around the corner. I don't expect you to know that considering you didn't even know orks got formations in 7th edition (they got several).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 13:33:39


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in de
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I still have see a single reason why one in 90/180 gretchin plinking off a wound from a vehicle is a problem.
It's just not a real problem, just like flamers hitting planes isn't.

Earth is not flat
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 Xenomancers wrote:

That was some serious effort to dig up some history buddy.

Just so you know. Demonic incursion Daemons were probably the most broken army in the formation age (next to ynnari ofc). Coming out near the end - it didn't last long...Index 40k was right around the corner. I don't expect you to know that considering you didn't even know orks got formations in 7th edition (they got several).
"

Xeno, I'm not a fan of Jidmahs, but that dude has forgotten more stuff about Orkz than you will ever know. Orkz did get formations, none of them were worth a damn. Even the aforementioned green tide formation (which got removed before the end of 7th) wasn't even good, it was just a psychological shock. But Jidmah was saying none of the formations orkz got were worth taking, especially compared to the super formations that Marines, Tau, Eldar and Necrons got. And you are wrong again, Those 4 factions I mentioned had formations equally broken, which doesn't even cover super friends.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Those were the days man - if they rolled a 6 you lost 1 model in a unit. Now days...you spend 1 Cp and you lose a whole unit.

Shoot at a unit of scatter bikes and they jink to get a 4+ save and hit on 6's the next turn and can't really hurt you. Now...you shoot at a unit of chaff infantry and they get 2+ saves.

Man this game totally blows now.


arent you one of the dudes that bitches about imbalance a lot? Like, the whole 100% win with admech vs anything infantry? Seems like you only miss imbalance when it blatantly favors your armies.

But, that's the rub with balance, we all love it as long as it happens to the other guy's army.

Well I play about half the armies so..

Yeah - I played scatter bikes and D cannons but I did so against formations of tau and daemons and gladius. It was all OP. Nothing really touches invisibility deathstars though - anything that could deal with those (d weapons) was good for the game. Right now nothing can fix the game short of removing / nerfing stratagems 2 or 3 fold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

That was some serious effort to dig up some history buddy.

Just so you know. Demonic incursion Daemons were probably the most broken army in the formation age (next to ynnari ofc). Coming out near the end - it didn't last long...Index 40k was right around the corner. I don't expect you to know that considering you didn't even know orks got formations in 7th edition (they got several).
"

Xeno, I'm not a fan of Jidmahs, but that dude has forgotten more stuff about Orkz than you will ever know. Orkz did get formations, none of them were worth a damn. Even the aforementioned green tide formation (which got removed before the end of 7th) wasn't even good, it was just a psychological shock. But Jidmah was saying none of the formations orkz got were worth taking, especially compared to the super formations that Marines, Tau, Eldar and Necrons got. And you are wrong again, Those 4 factions I mentioned had formations equally broken, which doesn't even cover super friends.

It was better than nothing.

Hammer of wrath for all your units and waaagghh every turn is really good.

True it's no skyhammer formation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 13:52:05


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
Are you sure you played that at 1850? If my memory serves me right, that only adds up to 1850 if have everything bare bones.
One klaw and pole per infantry unit, painboyz for the nobz, basic klaw/field only for the characters and just enough to fit a waaaugh banner. The vehicles were all tooled up though.

I considered it a gimmick list because an opponent could play around it if they hadn't shot themselves in the foot with too much listhammer. By comparison there was no playing around scatbikes, they were just superior units for their cost and position.
   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




 Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Those were the days man - if they rolled a 6 you lost 1 model in a unit. Now days...you spend 1 Cp and you lose a whole unit.

Shoot at a unit of scatter bikes and they jink to get a 4+ save and hit on 6's the next turn and can't really hurt you. Now...you shoot at a unit of chaff infantry and they get 2+ saves.

Man this game totally blows now.


arent you one of the dudes that bitches about imbalance a lot? Like, the whole 100% win with admech vs anything infantry? Seems like you only miss imbalance when it blatantly favors your armies.

But, that's the rub with balance, we all love it as long as it happens to the other guy's army.

Well I play about half the armies so..

Yeah - I played scatter bikes and D cannons but I did so against formations of tau and daemons and gladius. It was all OP. Nothing really touches invisibility deathstars though - anything that could deal with those (d weapons) was good for the game. Right now nothing can fix the game short of removing / nerfing stratagems 2 or 3 fold.


yeeah...no. some strats may need to be changed, ill grant that (though i honestly dont know which ones, to be honest, none of them are truly OTT from my experience) but your argument of "this game is broken beyond repair and the only thing that can fix it is to destroy this mechanic" and then pining for the most broken and damaging version of the game as its typically or widely considered just tells a completely different story.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Xeno's actual opinion on 7th:

Drop pods OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/632112.page
Land speeder storm OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/633401.page
Warp storm table OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/638472.page
Daemons OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/698196.page
So, not so different from his opinion on 9th

From what I can tell from a quick glance at his post history during 7th, he essentially started with eldar and switched armies multiple times to GK, tau and marines. Considering this, it's somehow unsurprising that he doesn't feel like 7th was a bad edition.
9th's vastly improved balance no longer allows you to just buy the most recent hot stuff and start winning games despite a total lack of skills, so I guess he just misses the time when his original army - eldar - were good.

So, I honestly wish you good luck in getting an eldar codex that allows to have fun playing your army again. You'll still have to work for your wins though.

That was some serious effort to dig up some history buddy.

Just so you know. Demonic incursion Daemons were probably the most broken army in the formation age (next to ynnari ofc). Coming out near the end - it didn't last long...Index 40k was right around the corner. I don't expect you to know that considering you didn't even know orks got formations in 7th edition (they got several).


You might want to give this post a read: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/798984.page#11151563

I also created the list of formations for the 7th edition ork tactics thread at that time, so I was fairly well aware of what orks could and couldn't do.

Oh and it wasn't any effort. I just searched your created threads and sorted them by date. That's like six mouse clicks. You're just predictable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A.T. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Are you sure you played that at 1850? If my memory serves me right, that only adds up to 1850 if have everything bare bones.
One klaw and pole per infantry unit, painboyz for the nobz, basic klaw/field only for the characters and just enough to fit a waaaugh banner. The vehicles were all tooled up though.

I considered it a gimmick list because an opponent could play around it if they hadn't shot themselves in the foot with too much listhammer. By comparison there was no playing around scatbikes, they were just superior units for their cost and position.


Ah, ok. I just did the rough math in my head and remembered just barely being able to fit 4 wagons into 2k. I did bring a crapton of lootas though...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 14:07:50


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

Hammer of wrath for all your units and waaagghh every turn is really good.

True it's no skyhammer formation.


it was Hammer of Wrath on units with 10 or more models and only if they rolled a 10+ on the charge roll and what did it get you? Every boy that got into Base to base contact got to make a S4 AP 0 free hit. I mean, totally on the same power tier as free razorbacks for everyone or shooting twice with a riptide.

Jidmah already covered it well in the post he linked to you, the Orkurion was god awful in every way possible.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





@Jidmah: Dakka is the only way.

Some of the stuff of 7th was so out of whack that i seriously doubt anyone would want to go back to it without some serious rework

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Xeno's actual opinion on 7th:

Drop pods OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/632112.page
Land speeder storm OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/633401.page
Warp storm table OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/638472.page
Daemons OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/698196.page
So, not so different from his opinion on 9th

From what I can tell from a quick glance at his post history during 7th, he essentially started with eldar and switched armies multiple times to GK, tau and marines. Considering this, it's somehow unsurprising that he doesn't feel like 7th was a bad edition.
9th's vastly improved balance no longer allows you to just buy the most recent hot stuff and start winning games despite a total lack of skills, so I guess he just misses the time when his original army - eldar - were good.

So, I honestly wish you good luck in getting an eldar codex that allows to have fun playing your army again. You'll still have to work for your wins though.

That was some serious effort to dig up some history buddy.

Just so you know. Demonic incursion Daemons were probably the most broken army in the formation age (next to ynnari ofc). Coming out near the end - it didn't last long...Index 40k was right around the corner. I don't expect you to know that considering you didn't even know orks got formations in 7th edition (they got several).
You really don't have any standing when it comes to balance. You are wrong on the Orks currently. Wrong on future topics, and pretty much wrong when it came to balance the past.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 20:36:13


 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






My "favorite" Ork formation was the one that took 20 Flash Gitz + Named Freeboota Kaptain and allowed you to reroll 1 shot per Git. The great thing about this was that it required you to roll for each git at a time because you couldn't tell which misses came from which Git. That is potentially 42 separate rolls you have to make to resolve a shooting attack and those 6+ armor Gitz couldn't fit in a battlewagon due to requiring the 1 named character so they are forced to footslog. The dice rolling alone is proof that NOBODY actually did a rudimentary play test of the formation to see if it was actually functional.

The fearless MANz, Blitz Brigade (5 Battlewagons with scout), 3 Dakkajets formation, and Greentide where the only good Ork formations that I can recall. Even the later rerelease of the supplement that added the Orkurion was completely phoned in with it's abysmal bonuses that basically did the same thing as the codex Ork detachment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 21:50:51


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 kirotheavenger wrote:
Isn't Xeno the guy that's said before he's here just because he enjoys fething with people?


No, you're thinking of Canadian 5th.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 morganfreeman wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:

I don't get why people think getting to roll a save adds agency. I don't find the 50-pt models one-shotting 250pt models in 9th any less frustrating because someone says to me "Why are you complaining? You got to roll a save as part of the attack procedure!"


Rolling a save does add agency, or at least 'involves' the controlling player in the process (which is, arguably, agency).


I disagree. It's not agency, it's making the resolution process longer so that both players share the burden of operating the game's engine which is a loss-loss scenario. If it's automatic (no decision involved, anyone could perform it - attacker, defender, random passerby) it's not agency in my book.

Combining the entire slog of multiple rolls into just one would make the system a lot smoother and more elegant IMO.
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Those were the days man - if they rolled a 6 you lost 1 model in a unit. Now days...you spend 1 Cp and you lose a whole unit.

Shoot at a unit of scatter bikes and they jink to get a 4+ save and hit on 6's the next turn and can't really hurt you. Now...you shoot at a unit of chaff infantry and they get 2+ saves.

Man this game totally blows now.


arent you one of the dudes that bitches about imbalance a lot? Like, the whole 100% win with admech vs anything infantry? Seems like you only miss imbalance when it blatantly favors your armies.

But, that's the rub with balance, we all love it as long as it happens to the other guy's army.

Well I play about half the armies so..

Yeah - I played scatter bikes and D cannons but I did so against formations of tau and daemons and gladius. It was all OP. Nothing really touches invisibility deathstars though - anything that could deal with those (d weapons) was good for the game. Right now nothing can fix the game short of removing / nerfing stratagems 2 or 3 fold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

That was some serious effort to dig up some history buddy.

Just so you know. Demonic incursion Daemons were probably the most broken army in the formation age (next to ynnari ofc). Coming out near the end - it didn't last long...Index 40k was right around the corner. I don't expect you to know that considering you didn't even know orks got formations in 7th edition (they got several).
"

Xeno, I'm not a fan of Jidmahs, but that dude has forgotten more stuff about Orkz than you will ever know. Orkz did get formations, none of them were worth a damn. Even the aforementioned green tide formation (which got removed before the end of 7th) wasn't even good, it was just a psychological shock. But Jidmah was saying none of the formations orkz got were worth taking, especially compared to the super formations that Marines, Tau, Eldar and Necrons got. And you are wrong again, Those 4 factions I mentioned had formations equally broken, which doesn't even cover super friends.

It was better than nothing.

Hammer of wrath for all your units and waaagghh every turn is really good.

True it's no skyhammer formation.


D weapons and even stomp didn't "Deal with" Deathstars anymore than bolter shots did. Which is why by the end of the edition Tau and Eldar actually started to fall off because they just couldn't keep up with post Angels of Death/Whatever-the-chaos-equivalent-was-called psychic stars anymore. Ynnari was a flash in the pan that was obscenely OP for about 5 minutes until the deathstars figured out how to play against them.

There was no such thing as 'good for the game' by the end of 7th. That edition was irrevocably fethed.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
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Scatter dice had risk/reward and could create interesting situations.

Now you roll a d6 and say “I got 4 shots”
   
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Pancakey wrote:
Scatter dice had risk/reward and could create interesting situations.

Now you roll a d6 and say “I got 4 shots”


With the risk you mean the risk of your opponent arguing how many model were hit, looking through templates at an angle or them not properly moving the template in the scatter direction?

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We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
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Stand up for science!
 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Scatter dice had risk/reward and could create interesting situations.

Now you roll a d6 and say “I got 4 shots”


With the risk you mean the risk of your opponent arguing how many model were hit, looking through templates at an angle or them not properly moving the template in the scatter direction?


Blasts were interesting in 4th where you rolled to hit, and if you hit you placed the marker where you wanted it to, and if you didn't it scattered the full 2d6". The change in 5th to "always scatter 2d6-BS"" and the push in later editions to the multiple-barrage flip and twin-linked blast weapons made blasts way harder to resolve (you had to scatter them short distances a lot more, plus the re-rolls and having to hold one blast in position and move another around), the push to more powerful blasts made the differences of milimeters and degrees have a lot more impact on how much stuff died (if you're wounding on 2+ and ignoring armour and cover with a Riptide's ion cannon each model under the template is probably dead, so exactly how many models are under the template makes a lot more difference than with less powerful templates that don't wound on 2+ and don't ignore all the saves and don't ID T4), and the shorter scatter distances made blasts way less risky (since you're virtually guaranteed to hit what you shoot at).

Scatter dice aren't the only solution (Warmachine uses a blast template with six directions marked around the perimeter so you need to eyeball differences of sixty degrees instead of minute differences in where the scatter die arrow is pointing), scattering at all isn't the only solution (Bolt Action and Infinity only let you use the template if you hit your shot, if you miss you just don't place the template), and blast templates aren't even the only solution (the 8e FW conversion beamer fired one shot, then did a random number of additional hits at a different profile to the unit if the initial shot killed someone), but I'd prefer any of those to how the game currently resolves blast weapons as incredibly high rate-of-fire autocannons that kill vehicles incredibly efficiently.

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I'm fairly sure that with 5th-7th a hit was still a hit unless the weapon explicitly said otherwise. It was a cool system and all, but I totally don't miss the arguments.

As for the autocannon blurb... that's not how it works for me in my games - and between plague burst mortars, missile launchers, bile spurt, grenades, da boomer, rokkit kannons, kustom-mega-zappas, supa-kannons and SAG, I use a lot of blasts.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 19:57:24


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 Jidmah wrote:
I still have see a single reason why one in 90/180 gretchin plinking off a wound from a vehicle is a problem.
It's just not a real problem, just like flamers hitting planes isn't.


So, 90 bugs hit the windshield of your car today while driving to work. Bug #91 causes the windshield to crack, just a bit, say 1/20th of the windshield. So you take the car to the dealer and he says “I do not see a problem.”

Flamers hitting planes... did I miss the /s? Yikes...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/19 20:23:57


   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Scatter dice had risk/reward and could create interesting situations.

Now you roll a d6 and say “I got 4 shots”


With the risk you mean the risk of your opponent arguing how many model were hit, looking through templates at an angle or them not properly moving the template in the scatter direction?


Its the same argument that happens with charge distances, true LOS, which models can swing in close combat, whats in range for buff auras, etc. Bad sportsmanship and overly try-harding results in these sorts of arrangements where as a more laid back give and take sort of arrangement makes the game go a lot more smoothly regardless of which edition of the game your playing. The template "which models are getting hit" issue is definitely has potential to be problematic but its not in any way a unique one but more of a general issue with anything requiring measuring.

I don't think scatter dice made for much in the way of risk/reward as I personally rarely found myself having to worry about hitting my own stuff (it happened but it was a rare occurrence). What it did do is make clumping up units a bad idea as blast weapons almost always hit something if you fired them into the center of a giant concentration of units. My Ork Battlewagons use to love early game when they could just fire their big kannons (Killkannons?) into packs of enemies to hit anything. Having those blast scatter onto jetbikes so they couldn't jink was *chef's kiss*.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/19 20:53:34


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 Jidmah wrote:
...As for the autocannon blurb... that's not how it works for me in my games - and between plague burst mortars, missile launchers, bile spurt, grenades, da boomer, rokkit kannons, kustom-mega-zappas, supa-kannons and SAG, I use a lot of blasts.


That's a complaint about how there's nothing to distinguish a blast weapon from a high rate-of-fire high S/D weapon, which makes blasts too effective AT, which makes some artillery efficient anti-everything guns, which you can then spam, which most people who play 9th aren't worried about but which really annoys me.

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 jeff white wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I still have see a single reason why one in 90/180 gretchin plinking off a wound from a vehicle is a problem.
It's just not a real problem, just like flamers hitting planes isn't.


So, 90 bugs hit the windshield of your car today while driving to work. Bug #91 causes the windshield to crack, just a bit, say 1/20th of the windshield. So you take the car to the dealer and he says “I do not see a problem.”

Flamers hitting planes... did I miss the /s? Yikes...


It is not a problem because this is a game and not real life, so if the bug player takes that much of his force to scratch your car then yeah that IS a good thing.

Yes, flamers hitting planes is a bit of a laughable reality of the game right now but you know what? What is the fix? Just say that "Flamer" weapons can't target flyers? How many of YOUR flyers have been killed by d6 S4 shots? Or a Hellhounds 2d6 S6 Ap -1 shots?
   
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 Vankraken wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Pancakey wrote:
Scatter dice had risk/reward and could create interesting situations.

Now you roll a d6 and say “I got 4 shots”


With the risk you mean the risk of your opponent arguing how many model were hit, looking through templates at an angle or them not properly moving the template in the scatter direction?


Its the same argument that happens with charge distances, true LOS, which models can swing in close combat, whats in range for buff auras, etc. Bad sportsmanship and overly try-harding results in these sorts of arrangements where as a more laid back give and take sort of arrangement makes the game go a lot more smoothly regardless of which edition of the game your playing. The template "which models are getting hit" issue is definitely has potential to be problematic but its not in any way a unique one but more of a general issue with anything requiring measuring.

I disagree.
LOS discussions can easily be concluded with laser pointers and tapes (except for that one time, when my opponent didn't understand why a red dot on both miniatures meant that there was LoS)
The combat gauge tool can quickly solve any engagement range issues, even if there is a ball of genestealers fighting choppa boyz. And even 12" auras aren't that hard to measure unless there is a metric ton of terrain in between.

The issue with templates is that you have to look straight through them, sometimes at a position near the center where you physically can't do that. And then there are these people who think they are looking straight through them, but in reality aren't. I had a literal fight break out between to of my friends (one my teammate, the other my opponent) over how many of my orks were hit by a small blast.
Then there were these units which were "throwing" flamer templates which required you to hit as many models as possible and have the thin end closer than the long end, which caused endless fiddling.
Last, but not least, only about half the people I played were able to scatter templated properly with high scatter dice. Either the dice wasn't close enough to the targeted model, or the tape measure would bend while moving, or they would move both their arms at the same time to effectively scatter in a curve, etc, etc.

The big difference between the things you mentioned and templates is that there are no tools available to quickly resolve those problems without room to argue. I guess technically there are some construction tools to draw laser markings in the way you need it, but those are as expensive as whole armies.

I don't think scatter dice made for much in the way of risk/reward as I personally rarely found myself having to worry about hitting my own stuff (it happened but it was a rare occurrence). What it did do is make clumping up units a bad idea as blast weapons almost always hit something if you fired them into the center of a giant concentration of units. My Ork Battlewagons use to love early game when they could just fire their big kannons (Killkannons?) into packs of enemies to hit anything. Having those blast scatter onto jetbikes so they couldn't jink was *chef's kiss*.

I agree, I do miss that blasts could hit friend or foe alike. I remember many fun situations that occurred from that. However, if I had to decide between having to space out all my models properly and getting scatter back, sorry, I'd rather enjoy all my movement phases than some shooting phases. If there was a way to bring back scatter without templates - sign me up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 08:13:52


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 Blackie wrote:
7th edition without SM, tau and eldar wasn't actually a bad edition.


It was how we played the last year of 7th in my group back then, no one brought their SM Eldar or Tau. But the game was still quite clunky and took forever to play (especially GSC). Balance was ok though (Necrons were also a bit too good)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 08:22:24


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
...As for the autocannon blurb... that's not how it works for me in my games - and between plague burst mortars, missile launchers, bile spurt, grenades, da boomer, rokkit kannons, kustom-mega-zappas, supa-kannons and SAG, I use a lot of blasts.


That's a complaint about how there's nothing to distinguish a blast weapon from a high rate-of-fire high S/D weapon, which makes blasts too effective AT, which makes some artillery efficient anti-everything guns, which you can then spam, which most people who play 9th aren't worried about but which really annoys me.


Uhm sorry, but you're wrong? Blast is distinguished from high RoF weapons in a way that you actively want to shoot it at large units because you a higher amount of hits from that. For most blasts, shooting single models makes them very unreliable, in a similar way it did in the past - hitting 20 orks was much easier than hitting a battlewagon.

Let's address your claim (blasts are effective anti-tank) for all the weapons I listed earlier:
plague burst mortar - a gamble against vehicles, mediocre unless you turn it into an anti-tank weapon with disgusting force. Great for shelling light and heavy infantry, especially those hiding in cover.
missile launcher - S4 AP0 DMG 1 against vehicles? Nope. Frag is used to blow up cultists, boyz and wyches.
bile spurt - small blasts do maximum shots against units with 6+ models, so target those whenever you can. Otherwise, S5 AP-1 DMG1 isn't great against vehicles at all.
grenades - DG have six or seven grenades that all can plonk a wound or two off a vehicle with above average rolls, or completely devastate a unit of infantry.
da boomer - Admittedly a decent gun to shoot at vehicles, but if you catch a non-chaff unit of 11+ models, that's always what you want to be shooting.
rokkit kannon - Anti-tank weapon, I rarely, if ever, shoot it at light infantry. I'm honestly surprised that this weapon was made blast at all, it's a rapid fire rokkit launcher.
kustom-mega-zappas - Primary anti-tank weapon, because why waste such powerful (and expensive!) shooting on infantry. Blast adds a bit of utility, but whether you get 6 or 9 shots isn't much of a difference.
supa-kannons - Technically the gun is good against hordes, but even at max shots, you don't want to be shooting such an expensive gun at cheap models.
SAG - Highly unreliable, and if it does go off, you want an expensive unit to disappear, not to get maximum hits against a unit of gaunts.

TL;DR: The profile of a weapon decides whether a unit is good anti-tank, not the blast rule. Blast provides reliability to actual anti-infantry guns, but does not make high strength, high damage weapons efficient at killing hordes. Even less so for blast weapons rolling multiple d6, as the minimum 3 does little for them and units with 11+ models are rare.

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 Castozor wrote:
Care to explain to a newer player what these things were and what made them good compared to what we have now? I've heard rumors of OP scatterbikes and scary D-weapons but I never really understood what that meant.


They didn't. All of the junk that was removed from the game was nothing more than a source for endless arguments, slowing down the game and making playing with certain opponents insufferable.
   
 
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