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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




dammit wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles

A highly dense terrain board probably works better for you he's a shooty list your an infantry horde.

Can you give us your list


its kind of irrelevant given the new codex and this predates that, but the the last time I ran sisters against this list.

VH batallion

canoness,
palatine
triumph

4x5 BS

5 celestians (triple meltagun)
imagifier
preacher
2x9 repentia

2x5 seraphim with inferno pistols
5 dominions with storm bolters

4 mortifiers
2x5 rets w/multi-melta.

3x rhinos.

Haven't built a new list since the codex dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles


I feel like we're playing a completely different game because yes that's trivial.


You must be using an absolute feth ton of obscuring terrain for keeping that many units out of LoS from 30" (42" with the previous book) from any angle on either side of the board to be possible. Which I guess would explain why no LoS shooting is as big of a deal for your meta as you say it is.

As for just beating that list:

AS Brigade or VH Brigade (go VH if he's really into Conceal/Reveal, Lightning Reflexes, and/or Dense Terrain)

Morvenn(Rerolls, Discourage Spears, Shoots Fireprisms well if they show their faces)
Stern(put on the opposite end of the blob from Morvenn to keep spears honest)
Canoness Blinding Radiance

3x5 BSS Squad with heavy bolter
1x20 BSS Squad with 2 heavy bolter (trap squad. They'll waste their blast into it and you can just defense buff it to hell. Be careful going second, don't overbuff. You want them to shoot at it but you don't want them to get too far in killing it)

Hospitaller Book of St. Lucius Indomitable belief(his fireprisms are his biggest damage threat, going 5++, 6+++ blunts their damage by about 1/3rd)
Dialogus Sigil, 4++, Catechism(more bait for the 20 squad)
2 Crusaders
2 Crusaders

Dominions 4 SB
Dominions 4 SB
Seraphim 4hF (drop to charbroil DA as they're one of the only units in the game hF are good into)

10 Rets 4HB, 2Cherubs
10 Rets 4HB, 2 Cherubs
10 Rets 4MM, 2 Cherubs

Between defensive buffs and wasting shots on a largely MSU force, he'll need 3 turns of shooting to really start to ramp up casualties if he brings everything. In that time anything that's visible should die to an absolute hail of heavy bolter shots. If he tries to hide everything and wear you down with the D cannons, you'll most likely be able to recover your losses with just the D3 rez strat. Stop Guide, all the other psychic powers are less relevant.

Movement will be a little wonky while you're still trying to maximize the Hospitaller but once the infantry is dead you can basically just sit on more objectives than him and go grab pizza while he finishes rolling dice.

If he presents the fireprisms as a target, dive on them with Morvenn and the Outflanking Melta Rets. The spears will be mostly handled by a combination of left over heavy bolter fire and Morvenn/Stern in Melee.

The D cannons are almost entirely irrelevant. Just don't let them shoot Morvenn.

This will probably work right up until the CWE codex releases to Drukhari stomping levels.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

dammit wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles

A highly dense terrain board probably works better for you he's a shooty list your an infantry horde.

Can you give us your list


its kind of irrelevant given the new codex and this predates that, but the the last time I ran sisters against this list.

VH batallion

canoness,
palatine
triumph

4x5 BS

5 celestians (triple meltagun)
imagifier
preacher
2x9 repentia

2x5 seraphim with inferno pistols
5 dominions with storm bolters

4 mortifiers
2x5 rets w/multi-melta.

3x rhinos.

Haven't built a new list since the codex dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles


I feel like we're playing a completely different game because yes that's trivial.


So the two problems with this list are with the triumph and mortifiers as a big chunk of your army is very vulnerable to multi damage weapons

While you have overloaded on melta (the Seraphim you can ditch as the pistols strat has made them worthless. The celestian squad and one of the rets too. That should leave you about 700pts for the good infantry.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




You don't need the Rhinos either, with new dex...

   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

So, continuing my layman's review, here's how I feel about our Stratagems:

Cleansed by Fire: A Tier: This is the stratagem that makes our Heavy Flamers shine; it's amazing when used by Penitent Engines or Mortifiers, but honestly even a unit of Retributors can get good mileage out of it.

Embodied Prophecy: B Tier: Zephyrim might not be right for every list, but this at least helps you get every little bit of potential out of them.

Exceptional Proficiency: B Tier: Celestians might not be considered very good, but this also works on Sacresants and Paragon Warsuits, and it works for shooting or fighting.

Extremis Trigger Word: A Tier: Arco-Flagellants are already pretty solid, and this turns them up to 11. Combine with War Hymn and a full unit of Arcos will straight up murder anything they touch that is less than T6.

Suffer Not the Witch: C Tier: Much more situational than other strats, but when it's good, it's good. This will become more relevant once the books for Grey Knights and Tsons come out.

Divine Intervention: B Tier: Less good than it was due to the once per game limitation, but still a good way to keep one of your key characters on the board.

Fiery Oratory: A Tier: This is the way to get a Hymn off when you get out of a transport or come in from reserves. Or if you just want to pay a CP to not have to worry about flubbing the roll.

Martyr's Immolation: F Tier: Immolators are total gak right now, so this stratagem is useless.

Rites of Restoration: A Tier: If you bring a Hospitaller in your lists, chances are this is why. Getting d3 Retributors or Sacresants back is well worth a CP and can easily make up the points you paid for the Hospitaller.

Martyred: A Tier: Given how we will have fewer Miracle Dice than we did before, this is very useful and can soften the blow of losing a key character during a game.

Moment of Grace: B Tier: More limited than before, and our Miracle Dice are more precious than before as well. Still not a terrible way to use one or two low-numbered ones and make a save you would otherwise have failed.

Suffering and Sacrifice: D Tier: Kind of a cute idea, but it'll be pretty rare that you want your opponent to focus all their aggro on your expensive characters.

Open the Reliquaries: S Tier: Admit it, everyone's going to use this in every game, right?

A Sacred Burden: D Tier: Lets you put a relic from a limited list on a Superior instead of a Character. I can't think of any cases where this is likely to help much, but I'm open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.

Saint in the Making: S Tier: Again, everyone's using this at least once in pretty much every game.

Angelic Ascent: B Tier: Repositioning a unit of Seraphim or Zephyrim might be a useful thing, but it definitely won't come up in every game. Could be used to bail such a unit out of trouble if they get charged by something they don't want to tangle with (only useful if they survive, of course!).

Battle Rites: F Tier: In most games, you'll pick the Sacred Rite that is most relevant for your list, so you won't want to switch it mid-game.

Deadly Descent: C Tier: This lost a lot of its luster in the new book, as it no longer buffs the range on Seraphim pistols. Importantly, it also doesn't happen until the end of the phase (after all reinforcements are down), so you can't drop one unit, pop this to clear a screen, and then drop another unit closer to something juicy. One use it could have would be just as a "shoot twice" gimmick for flamer Seraphim, but unless your opponent has multiple targets in range, they'll just pull models in such a way as to leave you out of range after using the strat so you only shoot once anyway.

Defenders of the Faith: A Tier: If units of 20 Battle Sisters turn out to be worthwhile, this stratagem will obviously be key to their success. Transhuman Physiology-type effects have proven to be very powerful on armies that have access to them (coughdeathwingcough), and rapid firing at full range can be pretty clutch, especially if you also pop Blessed Bolts on equipped Storm Bolters. The only downside is that it has to be activated in your turn, so if your opponent goes first you won't have a chance to activate it.

Desperate for Redemption: A Tier: This is a good counterplay for "fight last" effects, as it makes it so Repentia get to swing when they die if they haven't already done so (similar to Space Wolves Wulfen).

Devastating Refrain: C Tier: This is the only possible reason you might bring an Exorcist, and it is a decently powerful ability to give one. Still doesn't make Exorcists good IMO, especially for 2CP.

Holy Rage: B Tier: This one will really shine in Bloody Rose lists, who would love to fall back and charge with something like Sacresants or Zephyrim to turn on their extra attacks on the charge. Repentia aren't likely to live long enough to use this, and they already have the Zealot ability. Sadly due to requiring the ADEPTA SORORITAS keyword, it doesn't work on Arco-Flagellants.

Purity of Faith: A Tier: Being able to use this after failing your Deny test is really good (gives you a second chance to veto a power). Won't come up in every game, but when it is relevant it is awesome!

Faith and Fury: B Tier: Not likely to be useful all that often, but could be a way to use midrange Miracle Dice (hit on 3 wound on 3 with just one dice, for example).

Final Redemption: A Tier: This could be a cheeky way to polish off a Knight or something that has the gall to survive an attack from your Pengines or Mortifiers, or just a good way to throw out some damage even if you are the one who gets charged (give those Shining Spears the birdy for charging and killing your walking torture racks!).

Judgment of the Faithful: A Tier: Fall back and shoot. Keeps your opponent from just tagging a unit of Retributors or Dominions to turn off their shooting next turn. Hilariously it requires CORE so it's no good on the tanks...

Righteous Impact: B Tier: Bring back a variation of the old Hammer of Wrath rule from older editions to make your walkers possibly do some damage when they charge something, particularly if it's lower toughness. Yet another reason why Mortifiers and Pengines are good, and potentially nice to have for Paragons as well if those can be made to work.

Blessed Bolts: S Tier: This is why lists should bring at least one unit of Storm Bolter Dominions. Pumping out a maximum of 6 mortal wounds could be really nasty when facing otherwise hard to kill enemies (like Death Guard or Deathwing Terminators) and can let Dominions punch above their weight.

Holy Smokescreen: C Tier: Good way to protect a Rhino or keep a lone Exorcist alive longer, but generally in a list with multiple Rhinos your opponent will just switch targets.

Holy Trinity: C Tier: Potentially good, but likely a trap. As others have pointed out in earlier posts, it actually benefits flamers and bolters more than meltas.

Inviolate Shieldwall: A Tier: This is really good for keeping Sacresants on the table, and one of the reasons why they are such a good brawler unit. Funnily enough it also works on Crusaders.

Thrice-Blessed Hull: C Tier: Make an enemy Psyker take Perils if they fail to cast while near one of your Rhino-chassis vehicles. Not likely to come up often, but kind of cute if it does. Like Suffer Not the Witch, it'll probably be more relevant once the two psyker Marine books come out.

Honour the Martyrs (Our Martyred Lady): B Tier: Thematically fun, and could be a good way to kill off a powerful enemy model after it shanks one of your characters.

Blind Faith (Valourous Heart): C Tier: Modifiers are less prevalent in 9th edition, so this is pretty situational.

Tear Them Down (Bloody Rose): A Tier: Getting some auto-wounds is fairly powerful, and doubly so on Repentia who get to reroll their hits with Zealot (so more chances at getting 6's to hit).

Cleansing Flames (Ebon Chalice): B Tier: This is perhaps one thing that could make Seraphim strong, as they can pump out mortal wounds with their flamers. Good on other flamer-toting models also, of course. Main downside is the fact that it's capped at 3 mortals.

Faith Is Our Shield (Argent Shroud): B Tier: Halving your mortal wounds can be strong against some armies, but irrelevant against armies that don't have a lot of mortal wound sources.

The Emperor's Judgment (Sacred Rose): A Tier: To me, this is probably what might make Sacred Rose worth playing. Incredibly nasty on a unit of Retributors with Multimeltas.

Overall we are in a great place with our stratagems. Very few stinkers, and most of those are that way because they buff mediocre units. Honestly one of the hardest part of playing Sisters is remembering all the different Strats (especially because Sisters have a lot of other stuff going on).

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 29 | Current main painting project: Nazgul
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Thing with holy trinity is s combi-flamer on the sgt is all you need to activate it on a retributor squad and that's a pretty decent boost
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




+1 to wound scales better the worse the original roll was, so it's going to help flamers more in most cases yes.

On dominions it only just slightly outscales taking a fifth of the target type (ie. taking a fifth flamer instead of turning on HT. It's worse when s>t.

On rets, the math works out more in HT's favour, because the combi-weapon isn't as good a profile as the heavy weapon variant. The maths here was posted in this thread of the previous one.

Of course, on celestians or basic sisters, sticking a second weapon in will always outscale +1 to wound.

As for deadly descent and fiery orator, theres the added benefit that these can be 'unusual phase' wounds against the likes of ghaz, or ctan shards. Getting a third or a fourth phase of damage against these models could be the difference between them surviving into your opponents turn, or not.

Initially I was a little down on blessed bolts, especially when surface-level compared to wrath of mars. But yeah, it's auto-wound, ignore invulns, ignore d-1, that maxes out on an 80 point unit. Incredible.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





A Sacred Burden: D Tier: Lets you put a relic from a limited list on a Superior instead of a Character. I can't think of any cases where this is likely to help much, but I'm open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.


I could see using this to drop blessing of sebastion thor on a specific unit to give it a sacred rite that would be helpful to it. in that case you're effectively spending a single CP to give an entire unit the benifits of an additional sacred rite. which... could have some situational value (such as giving hand of the emperor to a melee squad etc)

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




BrianDavion wrote:
A Sacred Burden: D Tier: Lets you put a relic from a limited list on a Superior instead of a Character. I can't think of any cases where this is likely to help much, but I'm open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.


I could see using this to drop blessing of sebastion thor on a specific unit to give it a sacred rite that would be helpful to it. in that case you're effectively spending a single CP to give an entire unit the benifits of an additional sacred rite. which... could have some situational value (such as giving hand of the emperor to a melee squad etc)


My reading of the relic is that the unit can have 2 entirely separate Sacred Rites. Possibly useful to have a melee unit with Passion and Hand while the rest of the army has Divine Guidance or Aegis. I think it could see play on Sacresants or Zephrym
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





shabadoit wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
A Sacred Burden: D Tier: Lets you put a relic from a limited list on a Superior instead of a Character. I can't think of any cases where this is likely to help much, but I'm open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.


I could see using this to drop blessing of sebastion thor on a specific unit to give it a sacred rite that would be helpful to it. in that case you're effectively spending a single CP to give an entire unit the benifits of an additional sacred rite. which... could have some situational value (such as giving hand of the emperor to a melee squad etc)


My reading of the relic is that the unit can have 2 entirely separate Sacred Rites. Possibly useful to have a melee unit with Passion and Hand while the rest of the army has Divine Guidance or Aegis. I think it could see play on Sacresants or Zephrym


agreed. it's situational but yeah potentially useful if you're running a gun army but wanna maximize your melee punch on a specific one. I mean, even just "1 CP to add +1 to charge and advance rolls to a unit for the rest of the game" is pretty solid, when you think of it that way.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

Agreed on A Sacred Burden, that's how I plan on running it. Also a useful way to get Litanies of Faith on a backfield unit that won't see combat, thereby maximizing its usefulness and freeing up relics for your other characters.

Also, I feel like it's unfair to call Martyr's Immolation an F-tier strategem. The strategem itself is good, it could be very useful, it just suffers for being tied to taking Immolators.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Not just immolators, immolators with flamers.

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




U02dah4 wrote:
Thing with holy trinity is s combi-flamer on the sgt is all you need to activate it on a retributor squad and that's a pretty decent boost


The problem is with Melta you do almost exactly the same amount of damage with a Combi-MELTA without spending the CP, which means on turns where you can't use HT for whatever reason, you're paying the same points for less damage and basically using CP to make up for your inefficient loadout decision. It ends up being a terrible nothing boost that tricks people into wasting CP.

For flamers, taking a combimelta isn't terrible and +1 to wound makes a bigger overall difference. They also tend to suffer less from shooting at melta at flamer targets than you suffer shooting a flamer at melta targets.

Holy trinity is pretty much flamer only for this reason.

(oh, also anytime you create rangebanding issues ala taking a multimelta and a handflamer on a squad of HB rets, that's immediately a bad idea.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 19:36:14


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

3.95 melta wounds with combi melta

4.47 melta wounds with combi flamer and holy trinity

Assuming 3+ hit and t7

With armorium cherubs

5.7 melta wounds with combi melta

6.7 melta wounds with combi melta and holy trinity

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 23:12:27


 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




If 20 blocks of Sisters become a thing I suppose a combi flamer/MM load out might be worth considering for holy trinity, even with the counter synergy with the auto would hymn.

I don't really think 20 blocks are going to be a thing though.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm willing to try them out.

Two multimeltas, two Uber-Stormbolters, and a combi-flamer, and use it as a fast moving fire base, with 15 sisters to soak up return fire.

I'll let you guys know how it works out once I actually get to try it...
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Denver, CO, USA

I'm chasing down a Codex this week, but here's a question in the meantime. I had just built a handful of models when it became clear that the new 'dex was inbound, so I held off on finishing them and assigning them to a squad. Where would the following loadouts fit best under the new rules?
~two multi-meltas
~one power maul with unassigned combi weapon
~one chainsword with bolter
~one simulacrum

I was going to build a Retributer squad (my first) around the multi-meltas, chainsword, and simulacrum, while the power maul was going to lead my second unit of Celestians. Are there better places for those multi-meltas now? Should the maul scout up with some Dominions? Which combi-weapon should I choose? Who needs simulacra most? Woooo, my head is spinning!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 03:39:52


   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




U02dah4 wrote:
3.95 melta wounds with combi melta

4.47 melta wounds with combi flamer and holy trinity

Assuming 3+ hit and t7

With armorium cherubs

5.7 melta wounds with combi melta

6.7 melta wounds with combi melta and holy trinity


I did the math better already on the first page. You haven't even defined which unit you're measuring, let alone your loadouts. You also appear to be doing one model at a time which is just about the worst way you could evaluate a squad level buff.

5 melta guns from melta doms do 7.77 damage to a T7 target, 4 MM rets do 12.5 damage(19.5 in melta range). 4 melta doms and a combi flamer superior with trinity do approximatley .58 additional damage(so 8.5ish) vs 5 meltas at the cost of 1CP and doing significantly LESS damage when you don't use that CP.

The retributor example isn't worth mathing out. The extra 12 inches is the entire point of retributors, wasting points creating silly rangebanding issues is a bad idea. Slap a handflamer on a squad with a simulacrum because its 5 points who cares, but it's Not an efficient use of our only meaningful midrange shooting optoon to be trying to close down into danger close.(It's 30 with no HT to 36 againt T7 with 2 cherubs,which would be nice if you got bonus points for killing a razorback 3 times)

You're also locking yourself into shooting 8-12 melta shots into the same unit. In melta range. In ana army that can easily guarantee 8 damage on a shot.

TLDR: Don't use HT on melta doms cause it doesn't do anything, don't plan to use HT on melta rets because the extra range is the best part of that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm willing to try them out.

Two multimeltas, two Uber-Stormbolters, and a combi-flamer, and use it as a fast moving fire base, with 15 sisters to soak up return fire.

I'll let you guys know how it works out once I actually get to try it...


My question is how are you going to swing the 'fast moving' part. Even argent shroud hand of the emperor is only 10'5 inches on average. It's not bad but it's not exactly 'blistering'.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 04:14:38


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Personally I think the 20-girl blob should take 4 storm bolters, to potentially use Blessed Bolts (which combines well with Defenders of the Faith to get rapid fire shots at 24" since storm bolters are bolt weapons). I suppose MM are a decent option too, though, but more expensive.

Speaking of the 20-girl blob, which Order do you all think would be best for them, assuming the concept turns out to be sound? Valourous Heart for the defensive buffs? Argent Shroud to allow them to advance and shoot? Or maybe even Sacred Rose so they only lose one model to a failed Morale test?

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 29 | Current main painting project: Nazgul
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




 MacPhail wrote:
I'm chasing down a Codex this week, but here's a question in the meantime. I had just built a handful of models when it became clear that the new 'dex was inbound, so I held off on finishing them and assigning them to a squad. Where would the following loadouts fit best under the new rules?
~two multi-meltas
~one power maul with unassigned combi weapon
~one chainsword with bolter
~one simulacrum

I was going to build a Retributer squad (my first) around the multi-meltas, chainsword, and simulacrum, while the power maul was going to lead my second unit of Celestians. Are there better places for those multi-meltas now? Should the maul scout up with some Dominions? Which combi-weapon should I choose? Who needs simulacra most? Woooo, my head is spinning!
First Ret squad is still a good place for 2 MM, I don't think Doms need a Power Maul (Still on Celestian Superior), Simulacra have gone down in value; but probably Doms.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

2x Extra Relics, 2x Extra warlord traits, patrol detachment - starting at 6 CP

Order: Argent Shroud

Celestine and Geminae Superia
Morvenn Vahl - Warlord

4x5 Battle Sisters Squad - Multimelta

10x Celestian Sacresants - Halberd and squad leader upgrade
Dogmata - Relic: The Sigil Ecclesiasticus

5x Seraphim 4x hand flamers
10x Zephyrim - Banner

2x Rhino

Ebon Chalice patrol

No force org

9x Arco-Flagellants - squad leader upgrade
2x Crusaders
Hospitaller Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Stratagem: Saint in the Making: Indomitable Belief

Canoness Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: Litanies of Faith, Stratagem: Saint in the Making: Terrible Knowledge

5x Battle sister

Preacher

5x Dominion, 4x stormbolter

Retributor Squad 2x Armourium Cherub, hand flamer, 4x heavy flamer

Sororitas Rhino


Here is my first crack at a 2k list, initial impressions are that I really like the versatility it brings to the table, the amount of mortal wounds that can be pumped out in a turn, while also bringing a little future proofing if hordes become a thing,

Dominions, rets go in a rhino giving the flamers an effective 31 inch threat range turn one (6 inch scout, 9 inch disembark and move, 12 inch gun, 4 inches from stratagem)

Arcos, sacrosancts, or other combinations of units can use the rhinos depending on match up. Celestine, Vahl, hospitaler can buff both since they are order agnostic. Ebon chalice cannoness is just there to sit on an objective and provide the army wide benefits since vahl will go up field with the rest of the army.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 05:43:11


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress





Had first game of new dex/battlescribe last night. Went up against death guard so D2 weapons had no chance to shine. Fortunately only a handful of those so no big deal.

Used custom order traits because my dudettes. Took the +4" range to flamers one as well as the +1 to hit against characters. Absolutely love 16" flame weapons and 22" immolation flamers.
The +1 against character was really good as it negated the -1 to hit he was putting on Morty.

Happy to take a 20 girls bss. Haven't done that since witch hunters days and was fun to do again. Took it as a melta spam squad but in future I think I'll put in flamers in stead of meltaguns for the special weapons to benefit from the flamer extra range. Several time the meltaguns did nothing due to being out of range.

Exorcist nerfs were noticeable. Going to only ap-2 saw so many saves being made by opponent and the drop to T7 was noticeable. T8 used to carry them fine but they were crumbling under T7.

Val's rerolls were nice but not game changing for me. She mostly did nothing all game but run up the board trying to find something to do.

Celestine feels better now. That 2mw on 6s to hit really helps her damage output along with the native -4ap. Had one round where she got 3x 6s to hit against morty which was plenty enough to finish him off from 4 wounds left.
The heal is very nice and I like the balance of it being an action.

Penitent engines being able to advance and charge is so nice. Really helps them get up the table especially with the 8" move now.
Being 2 damage still on the buzz saws is disappointing but hey, going against deathwatch didn't help them.

Sisters having extra strength on flamers is amazing. S5 normal flamers was fun times on dominion squad and wounding T5 on 3+ with holy trinity with the auto Max flamer strat was expensive but satisfying especially with divine guidance.
I have a sneaking suspicion that flamer strength will be going up across all armies, but we shall see and I shall enjoy feeling special while it lasts.

Battlescribe has a legends option for the cannoness for a second pistol so I had fun running a cannoness around with relic bolt pistol and an inferno pistol with the saintly blessing to pick out characters. (Me and buddy play pretty casual so all good there, also let me run my old gunslinging cannoness from an herald of ruin team kill game I modelled up)
   
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ERJAK wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
3.95 melta wounds with combi melta

4.47 melta wounds with combi flamer and holy trinity

Assuming 3+ hit and t7

With armorium cherubs

5.7 melta wounds with combi melta

6.7 melta wounds with combi melta and holy trinity


I did the math better already on the first page. You haven't even defined which unit you're measuring, let alone your loadouts. You also appear to be doing one model at a time which is just about the worst way you could evaluate a squad level buff.

5 melta guns from melta doms do 7.77 damage to a T7 target, 4 MM rets do 12.5 damage(19.5 in melta range). 4 melta doms and a combi flamer superior with trinity do approximatley .58 additional damage(so 8.5ish) vs 5 meltas at the cost of 1CP and doing significantly LESS damage when you don't use that CP.

The retributor example isn't worth mathing out. The extra 12 inches is the entire point of retributors, wasting points creating silly rangebanding issues is a bad idea. Slap a handflamer on a squad with a simulacrum because its 5 points who cares, but it's Not an efficient use of our only meaningful midrange shooting optoon to be trying to close down into danger close.(It's 30 with no HT to 36 againt T7 with 2 cherubs,which would be nice if you got bonus points for killing a razorback 3 times)

You're also locking yourself into shooting 8-12 melta shots into the same unit. In melta range. In ana army that can easily guarantee 8 damage on a shot.

TLDR: Don't use HT on melta doms cause it doesn't do anything, don't plan to use HT on melta rets because the extra range is the best part of that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm willing to try them out.

Two multimeltas, two Uber-Stormbolters, and a combi-flamer, and use it as a fast moving fire base, with 15 sisters to soak up return fire.

I'll let you guys know how it works out once I actually get to try it...


My question is how are you going to swing the 'fast moving' part. Even argent shroud hand of the emperor is only 10'5 inches on average. It's not bad but it's not exactly 'blistering'.


Well it's clearly a retributor melta squad nothing else has armorium cherubs and its what we were discussing

As to damage that's a stupid point of comparison it varies hugely by inv save of target whether the target has -1 damage whether the target is within 12.

Successfully wound roles is a far better point of comparison not because it gives you a damage figure for all these circumstances but because it shows the comparative increase

You don't close down with retributors you bring them on from reserve nuke something then get blown away. their too valuable and too vulnerable at mid range their are just too many 24" guns - it might not be an efficient tool for killing multiple Razorbacks it is a more efficient build for killing something bigger like a knight or a leviathan dreadnought with its inv save and-1 damage or a custodes telemon dreadnought

Whether it's worth the CP is another question entirely

As to range limitation just because you have it doesn't mean you have to fire at a target within 12 you can just not holy trinity however doing so just causes the unit to perform identically to the combi melta as that won't be able to fire either

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 07:54:38


 
   
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What are people's opinions so far for loadouts on the Sacresants? Halberds vs Mauls or mixing them?


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I've been wondering the same thing and I think with Bloody rose the mauls are nicer vs marines and the like but the added S of the halberd is better vs single W opponents. Depends what your meta is like.
I like the mauls for now with the special spear on the superior.

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skycapt44 wrote:
I've been wondering the same thing and I think with Bloody rose the mauls are nicer vs marines and the like but the added S of the halberd is better vs single W opponents. Depends what your meta is like.
I like the mauls for now with the special spear on the superior.
I prefer Halberds. They fill a role Repentia don't

   
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 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Had first game of new dex/battlescribe last night. Went up against death guard so D2 weapons had no chance to shine. Fortunately only a handful of those so no big deal.

Used custom order traits because my dudettes. Took the +4" range to flamers one as well as the +1 to hit against characters. Absolutely love 16" flame weapons and 22" immolation flamers.
The +1 against character was really good as it negated the -1 to hit he was putting on Morty.

If you were facing an army with very few characters what would your runner up be for the custom order traits? I'm a fan of flamer dominions & Seraphim so I'm glad to hear the +4" to flamers worked out well for you, I've considered it myself and have been wondering what to pair it with.


Battlescribe has a legends option for the cannoness for a second pistol so I had fun running a cannoness around with relic bolt pistol and an inferno pistol with the saintly blessing to pick out characters. (Me and buddy play pretty casual so all good there, also let me run my old gunslinging cannoness from an herald of ruin team kill game I modelled up)

Nothing wrong with reusing a favorite figure from KT/HoR, I'm the same way. How'd you like using a dual pistol cannoness compared to a traditional one?
   
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 Marquis Vaulkhere wrote:
What are people's opinions so far for loadouts on the Sacresants? Halberds vs Mauls or mixing them?


Halberd in non BR mauls in BR
   
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Repentia Mistress





 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Had first game of new dex/battlescribe last night. Went up against death guard so D2 weapons had no chance to shine. Fortunately only a handful of those so no big deal.

Used custom order traits because my dudettes. Took the +4" range to flamers one as well as the +1 to hit against characters. Absolutely love 16" flame weapons and 22" immolation flamers.
The +1 against character was really good as it negated the -1 to hit he was putting on Morty.

If you were facing an army with very few characters what would your runner up be for the custom order traits? I'm a fan of flamer dominions & Seraphim so I'm glad to hear the +4" to flamers worked out well for you, I've considered it myself and have been wondering what to pair it with.


If I were forced to choose, I'd probably go the discard 1MD to make another a 6. Because my dice are ice and having that ability there in a pinch would be helpful.
I mean it's not super fantastic for a flamer heavy list, but using the strat to modify a roll with MD while proved very useful multiple times in my game, gets expensive. So having a native ability to like that to save on cp would be nice.


Battlescribe has a legends option for the cannoness for a second pistol so I had fun running a cannoness around with relic bolt pistol and an inferno pistol with the saintly blessing to pick out characters. (Me and buddy play pretty casual so all good there, also let me run my old gunslinging cannoness from an herald of ruin team kill game I modelled up)

Nothing wrong with reusing a favorite figure from KT/HoR, I'm the same way. How'd you like using a dual pistol cannoness compared to a traditional one?


Aside from the fun and nostalgia? It's just a combat trade off. A trade off I'm fine with as I like to shoot. She runs alongside a small squad of storm bolter celestians, so that all becomes a very nice little dakka blob. The inferno pistol on her gives her some nice heavy hitting power and with pistols being able to be used in combat, she's not inconsiderable.
   
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I like the trick to create a 6 on the MD but not sure I like it enough to pick a trait on it. I was considering righteous suffering for the additional durability of footsloggers.

Dakka cannoness sounds fun, especially when paired with a squad of upgraded storm bolters.
   
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Denver, CO, USA

U02dah4 wrote:
 Marquis Vaulkhere wrote:
What are people's opinions so far for loadouts on the Sacresants? Halberds vs Mauls or mixing them?


Halberd in non BR mauls in BR

I'm tempted to build the Sacresants with halberds and spread the mauls out among various Superiors, especially Celestians and Dominions who tend to work up close.

   
 
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