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Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

 Blackie wrote:
Are Immolators and Exorcists really THAT bad? Even against armies that don't have meltas?

They are grossly overcosted for what they bring to the table. Even if they somehow don't get instakilled they won't earn their points back most of the time, at least not as efficiently as other units.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 29 | Current main painting project: Nazgul
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

In fairness the lack of durability for pts is a problem 80%of tanks have across all codexs

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 09:12:04


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Even though i know its overpriced and 2cp is a sink, I play in a meta thats dominated by well-screened non los weapons making midboard an impossible place to exist.

Having a tool that outranges D-cannons and can break into that meta is looking to be worth more than its points to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 10:25:02


 
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

Exactly. Like I said in my analysis, Sisters have no real ranged anti-tank, so you're either going to have to commit to rushing forward ASAP with melta weapons or you bite the bullet and take at least 1 Exorcist to deal with the biggest threats.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




It should be on the datasheet though.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly. Like I said in my analysis, Sisters have no real ranged anti-tank, so you're either going to have to commit to rushing forward ASAP with melta weapons or you bite the bullet and take at least 1 Exorcist to deal with the biggest threats.


Or you can ignore killing them and focus on the objectives. If you are majority infantry they can focus on killing 4++ or 5++ sister/Crusader. Units they might wipe you by the end of the game but you should be able to hold on long enough to win.

I'm also not suggesting you take no melta just that killing things isn't a win con and sometimes if you don't have the option trying to play that way will just put you at a disadvantage to a faction that can

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 12:27:21


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I've never had a game where ignoring 9 d-cannons is successful.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

I can't recall the last game I came up against 9 it's a bad strategy as it can't deal with infantry which is our strength

9 d cannons kill about 7.5-10 infantry depending on 4++ vs 5++per turn. Really not that much.

Sure they are great at popping vehicles but if you don't have them in a list or only have rhinos that you don't really care about from t2 they don't have any targets.

Our vehicles are weak other than Rhino and morvehn vall pretty much everything worth takeing is 1W

D cannon are only good vs vehicles If not they are easily ignored and left for 4 turns would only kill about 400pts and I've won by t4.

T1 they pop 2 rhinos t2 morvehen after that they don't matter with 9 it also accounts for 1/3 of their army. Focus the rest.

I'm also not suggesting you should ignore them always if one is mispossitioned and an easy kill take it but you certainly don't need to kill them to win

I've certainly Won games while tabled on t5 and that's how I see sisters playing a lot. We are a wave we crash into the objectives hold them and get martyred around T4 we just need enough pts in those 4 turns to carry the game

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 12:13:48


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




U02dah4 wrote:
I can't recall the last game I came up against 9 it's a bad strategy as it can't deal with infantry which is our strength


Like I said, I play in a non-los meta.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




dammit wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
I can't recall the last game I came up against 9 it's a bad strategy as it can't deal with infantry which is our strength


Like I said, I play in a non-los meta.
Exocist won't make for that, It'll half kill one and then die if you get T1. I'd be more tempted to try and leg it with Repentia and Superior...

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 13:47:10


 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

A- will max out in most lists
Morvenn vahl efficient distraction carnifex

Canoness always take with a blessing to suit build

Celestian sacresants efficient bodyguards good melee

Sisters repentia still really strong

Crusaders very efficient objevtive holders and action takers now pts decreased

B - good choices that you want to include but might not want maxed

Palatine less good canoness reasonable 2nd Hq choice in a detatchment with a canoness

Battle sister squad a mandatory choice in many detatchments

Imagifier - reroll advance and charge strong in BR relic for +1S melee lists will want 1

Dialogus best expensive priest but a tad expensive and useless in combat

Preacher best overall priest - cheap, best melee only best hymm very efficient 1 is an auto include if you don't have a dialogus

Repentia superior very strong buffs to repentia doesn't need a slot

Dominion interesting strat with storm bolter spam but only really works on a single unit

Retributor squad most armies will take atleast 1 melta squad some more

Rhino best transport 6+inv

Tadeous the purifier unbelievably broken in a bloody rose list grand 6" +1A aura to all priests that stack with war hymm but has keyword problems that shut miracle dice down. Essentially only take in bloody rose and you have to build around it - but loss of miracle dice is a huge cost.

C may see play
Missionary needs the sigil ecclesiasticus to justify but not really worth the relic slot at least cheap

Celestine and geminae superior a n expensive survivable beatstick in an army full of beatsticks viable outside bloody Rose but outclassed in bloody rose

Ephrael stern and kyganil - efficient beatsticks but their are other things in the hq slots

Triumph of St Katherine expensive interesting model nice buffs but not survivable enough a list that wants it has no vehicles and it's then the best target for multidamage weapons

Hospitaller 3" aura is just not big enough it's not bad but it's a struggle to justify over other choices

Arcoflagellants nothing wrong with the unit outside bloody rose but we have better options in bloody rose

Deathcult assassins nothing wrong with the unit outside bloody Rose but we have better options in bloody rose

Seraphim previous builds are dead now a board control unit rather than a kill unit although you can flamer it probably not that efficient

Zephyrim reasonable unit but mildly too expensive

Mortifier OK but not that survivable and substantially nerfed

Penitent ending OK slightly buffed but not that survivable

Exorcist a one of with devastating refrain could be useful but it's inefficient

Imolator not a rhino


F bad
Junith eruitia if only basilica aura didn't say wholey within

Aestred Thurgarton and Agatha Dolan - main aura Is not that great and can't be activated when you jump out a transport isn't that good and lasts 1 turn

Celestian squad almost everything they can do is done better by something else

Dogmata - not as efficient as a Preacher and at the same cost as a dialogue without the buffs

Paragon warship 720 pts per unit is terrible wait for faq

Castigator not durable enough

Battle Sanctum not playable due to terrain rules but cool model

Pious vorne take a Preacher instead


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote:
dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?


Yes if we could see your list we might be able to advise better

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 14:08:26


 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

I disagree. With each order leaning into particular play styles I feel we're probably one of the more flexible books that can shift into staying relevant the entire edition. I can't say we'll always top table (who knows the next time GW releases a book on par with Drukhari that breaks the meta for example), but we'll be relevant.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




I was hoping for a sample 'Meta' list...

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lammia wrote:
dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?


This isn't exactly a list I've played but - I asked one of the folks I play with and he said he's working on:

-Asurman
-Farseer
-Warlock Conclave

- 3x10 dire avengers
- 3x5 dire avengers

- 2x3 shining spears

- 3x3 D-cannon Support Weapons
- 2x Fire Prisms.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




 ClockworkZion wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

I disagree. With each order leaning into particular play styles I feel we're probably one of the more flexible books that can shift into staying relevant the entire edition. I can't say we'll always top table (who knows the next time GW releases a book on par with Drukhari that breaks the meta for example), but we'll be relevant.
I suspect T5 -1 AP Orks will be enough to creep us out.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




There's a reason flamers went to s5/s6 and everyone gets the max hits strat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 14:19:31


 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 ZergSmasher wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
What the hell even is a Zealot's Vindicator...?

It's the thing this model is holding (model painted by yours truly):

I think they included the option so that you could use this model (from Blackstone Fortress) as a generic Preacher model.

Alternatively you can snag some Necromunda Redemptionists for theirs as well:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
Are Immolators and Exorcists really THAT bad? Even against armies that don't have meltas?

They're (well more Immolators in this case) being over charged based on their ability to advance and shoot with no penalty as Argent Shroud. Even as AS they they're being overcharged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly. Like I said in my analysis, Sisters have no real ranged anti-tank, so you're either going to have to commit to rushing forward ASAP with melta weapons or you bite the bullet and take at least 1 Exorcist to deal with the biggest threats.

Yeah, 1 Exorcist seems like a good meta pick. More than one would be handicapping yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dammit wrote:
It should be on the datasheet though.

Considering the strength of their weapons it's possible that GW felt it'd be too strong to be a rule, but honestly with the other out of LOS shooting in the game I don't see it unless the playtesters got to try it and then broke the game with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

I disagree. With each order leaning into particular play styles I feel we're probably one of the more flexible books that can shift into staying relevant the entire edition. I can't say we'll always top table (who knows the next time GW releases a book on par with Drukhari that breaks the meta for example), but we'll be relevant.
I suspect T5 -1 AP Orks will be enough to creep us out.

Depends on what happens with their points. If they're pointed like Sisters maybe not so much.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 14:26:40


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




dammit wrote:
Even though i know its overpriced and 2cp is a sink, I play in a meta thats dominated by well-screened non los weapons making midboard an impossible place to exist.

Having a tool that outranges D-cannons and can break into that meta is looking to be worth more than its points to me.


Sometimes when you need something only 1 unit does, the cost doesn't matter. You still need it.

As a TAC option it is wildly, outrageously overpriced in both pts and CP.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

dammit wrote:
Lammia wrote:
dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?


This isn't exactly a list I've played but - I asked one of the folks I play with and he said he's working on:

-Asurman
-Farseer
-Warlock Conclave

- 3x10 dire avengers
- 3x5 dire avengers

- 2x3 shining spears

- 3x3 D-cannon Support Weapons
- 2x Fire Prisms.


Its an easy to beat if you have the models the big threat are dire avengers and shining spears because of asurman the avengers are 4++ so ap and multidamage are largely irrelevant so less is better I'd take one unit of retributors and no more meltas

What you need is volume of A so either a hoard BR infantry focusing on repentia sacrosacants crusaders battlesisters flagellents and assassins Seraphim with flamers the more infantry skewed the better

It's important not to take mortifiers Penitent ending castigators Exorcist and immolators

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 14:54:18


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




U02dah4 wrote:
dammit wrote:
Lammia wrote:
dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?


This isn't exactly a list I've played but - I asked one of the folks I play with and he said he's working on:

-Asurman
-Farseer
-Warlock Conclave

- 3x10 dire avengers
- 3x5 dire avengers

- 2x3 shining spears

- 3x3 D-cannon Support Weapons
- 2x Fire Prisms.


Its an easy to beat if you have the models the big threat are dire avengers and shining spears because of asurman the avengers are 4++ so ap and multidamage are largely irrelevant so less is better I'd take one unit of retributors and no more meltas

What you need is volume of A so either a hoard BR infantry focusing on repentia sacrosacants crusaders battlesisters flagellents and assassins Seraphim with flamers the more infantry skewed the better

It's important not to take mortifiers Penitent ending castigators Exorcist and immolators


That list shouldn't be able to beat an infantry horde list. Take out the shining spears and neuter the dire avengers, camp objectives. Even with blast he's paying 210pts for 9 shots. If he's killing 11pt battlesisters, who cares?

The fireprisms are the only real threat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 15:06:59


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Agreed with everything above.

Having played a lot of Dire Avengers their main weakness is once someone gets into melee. They can still be a threat in melee, but less so compared to almost every other faction who is spitting out a far higher volume of attacks.

Just be careful since they may be using Avenging Strikes as their Exarch power so losing just 1 model out of 10 means a permanent +1 Hit & Wound so kill them squads at a time. If the player is expecting lot's of melee they may put Defend on whichever squad of 10 they have up front as well.

I'm impressed by your opponent's positioning though, my Fire Prisms have always been glass cannons that get blown to bits early on.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 15:11:21


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




My experience has been completely different to that 'should' though.

I wonder if we play with too much terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Agreed with everything above.
I'm impressed by your opponent's positioning though, my Fire Prisms have always been glass cannons that get blown to bits early on.


They're out of los until they choose to shoot, and then only one has to poke it's hull out. Like I said, I wonder if we play too much terrain if you folks are suggesting it should be possible to ever actually see any of these non-los weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 15:19:17


 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






May not be the density of the terrain but the sizing. My old FLGS had lots of terrain but very few of them would be big enough to completely obscure a Fire Prism. Those that were are usually reserved for mid-field terrain to discourage castles.

You've given me hope on the Fire Prism though, I'm going to dig it up after we PCS and try it at our next store.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




dammit wrote:
My experience has been completely different to that 'should' though.

I wonder if we play with too much terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Agreed with everything above.
I'm impressed by your opponent's positioning though, my Fire Prisms have always been glass cannons that get blown to bits early on.


They're out of los until they choose to shoot, and then only one has to poke it's hull out. Like I said, I wonder if we play too much terrain if you folks are suggesting it should be possible to ever actually see any of these non-los weapons.
Too much terrain should favour melee, getting close enough to get those charges off.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles

Wait for it to poke its nose out to shoot then bring your retributors on from the board edge and shoot its nose

A highly dense terrain board probably works better for you he's a shooty list your an infantry horde.

Can you give us your list

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 15:28:13


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




It should, unless the only charges available are 5-model dire avenger squads and then you're dead in the following turn.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Those are the things you want to be chargeing

First priority shining spears
Second priority dire avengers

Single retributor priority fire prism
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles

A highly dense terrain board probably works better for you he's a shooty list your an infantry horde.

Can you give us your list


its kind of irrelevant given the new codex and this predates that, but the the last time I ran sisters against this list.

VH batallion

canoness,
palatine
triumph

4x5 BS

5 celestians (triple meltagun)
imagifier
preacher
2x9 repentia

2x5 seraphim with inferno pistols
5 dominions with storm bolters

4 mortifiers
2x5 rets w/multi-melta.

3x rhinos.

Haven't built a new list since the codex dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles


I feel like we're playing a completely different game because yes that's trivial.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 15:56:18


 
   
 
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