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2021/09/09 09:22:44
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I wouldn't expect too much from the FAQ. We already know that GW won't be doing any re-balancing unless there absolutely is a need to do so, they especially won't buff anything.
And even if Scrapjets and Squigbuggies should receive nerfs, it won't be with the first FAQ, but later this year.
Don't set yourself up for disappointment when we know exactly what's coming.
2021/09/10 07:18:27
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
russellmoo wrote: I think playtestors or GW really didn't like the idea of Orks being able to sit back and shoot and the ork codex really reflects that shift where orks have been pushed toward an assault army which is non ork players not realizing that orks have long been about the dakka
Out of curiosity - did you read the same codex as I did?
When I play my speed waaagh lists it feels like my orks have never been as good at shooting as they are now. Just with my super casual one-of-everthing-list I can shoot armies like necrons off the board.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/12 06:59:16
2021/09/12 07:06:23
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
russellmoo wrote: Sorry the emphasis in that post should have been on that orks can’t sit backand shoot.
Orks can move and shoot but any unit that used to stay still and shoot either got changed to be more mobile, got worse, or both
Well I can agree with that, though I really don't feel like any units got worse except mek guns. Even in regards to buggies where all of them are outperformed by scrapjets and squigbuggies, each individual buggy got better than they were in the previous codex, just not as much as the big two.
2021/09/12 20:56:44
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
The buggies didn't all get better. Losing the cool custom jobs, the ability to split off at deployment, and the better Deffskull rules makes them worse...but they are cheaper so I feel like it is a wash.
Don ' t afraid of it. Dragsta is obviously worse than before, even after discount. His 50% chance of telyporting makes him utterly useless.
I don't know about that. It also got an extra rokkit shot on average and you can still hit on 3+ during after tellyporting (or failing to do so) during a speedwaaagh. You can also re-roll the jump because it's just an advance roll.
In addition, it now got the same improved saws as squigbuggies, which make it almost as deadly in combat as the scrapjet. Ramshackle also made them a bit harder to kill.
As I've explained multiple times in the past, I wasn't a huge fan of the auto-jump kustom job in the old codex, my opponents always screen properly against it and if I did jump-assassinate something it always ended with all of the SJD dead. Holding To me it essentially was a trap upgrade that never once was worth the CP. Thus the SJD is now a lot better when you just use it a fast gunboat that forces to the opponent to plan for you jumping.
Don't get me wrong, I would probably agree that it's currently the worst of the buch - but it's nowhere in the ballpark of the old snazzwagon or squigbuggy.
As for the other kustom jobs - squigbuggy and snazzwagon kept theirs AND got significantly better, KBB was questionable at best and the extra attacks on all its weapons make up for losing 1 MW per shooting phase, the wartrike got most of the roar of gork for free rolled into the datasheet.
The only real loss was korkscrew, but no one is going to argue that scrapjets got worse.
Any yes, deffskulls got nerfed to the ground, but with freebootas and bloodaxes as viable alternatives, how much does that really matter?
XC18 wrote: They updated the Transport rule in the Trukk datasheet itself: [...This model has a transport capacity of 12 Flash Gitz, Specialist mob Infantry or <Clan> Infantry models...]
so...what can I tell to my OnlyCompetitive group?
Trukk now can transport FG/Specialist and Cultur but what about it? Doesn't it need to be Specialist too?
Please help a stupid grot to understand
Tnx
I'm not sure what there is to understand? It can transport Flash Gits, Specialist Mob Infantry of any kind no matter what the trukk's clan is OR transport a unit that shares a clan with it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/12 20:58:54
2021/09/12 22:44:35
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
For all 9th edition codices there is little reason to treat anything that's not explicitly labeled as an aura as such. Either they forgot to flag it as such then they will FAQ it, or they intentionally didn't flag it to prevent this interaction.
2021/09/13 14:43:58
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Sorry, kingbbobb, but that kind of nonesense only flies in YMDC and nowhere else. Every real opponent and TO will laugh in your face about that argumentation and then toss you out.
I could provide you with hundreds of abilities that fit that interpretation which are clearly not auras, first and foremost explosions.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/13 14:44:27
2021/09/13 15:14:29
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
kingbbobb wrote: The key thing really is that auras are pretty much always "while within" worded abilities.
Yes, but that's not what the rules say, neither in the core rules, nor in the glossary. Despite Goonhammer's approach being vastly superior to what GW wrote - it's just made up rules by someone on the internet.
And if you need proof of their interpretation being wrong - check the "Follow Me, Ladz!" warlord trait.
The best course of action is just directly asking GW via their FAQ e-mail whether Big Gob boosts the banner and wait for them to answer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/13 15:47:12
2021/09/14 07:06:16
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
kingbbobb wrote: point I am trying to make is you can't rely on that aura tag for what is or is not an aura ability.
And there are alot of people who feel the same way, I am obviously not alone.
Is it an aura ability? I dunno because I am not games workshop. But it seems to meet the definition in core rules
"Aura Abilities - Some abilities affect models or units in a given range – these are aura abilities"
You are contradicting yourself. GW tells us what abilities are aura abilities by tagging them. You might disagree with their tagging, but that is about the same as disagreeing with the point costs of lootas. In the end, the rules are the rules and they are very clear for the ork codex.
Also keep in mind that any time you aren't sure about whether rules work as intended, the sporting thing to do is to take a defensive stance on the issue. In this case you are trying to gain an advantage by changing the rules, and that's a no-go.
And just to be clear - I agree with what you say about auras and their consistency. They're a mess. I just don't think there is an easy way to fix that mess, so playing it as written is the best thing you can do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/14 07:11:25
2021/09/14 08:03:16
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
If you apply the rules you are quoting consistently to the game it breaks. See koooaei's comment about Mortarion switching off explosions (and bombs, many witchfires and more).
So that interpretation cannot be a valid way to play.
2021/09/14 08:23:20
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
kingbbobb wrote: Would you say the painboss has the aura ability Doks tools but the painboy + grotsnik does not?
Or would you play rules as intended and say they both have an aura ability?
I think going on case-by-case basis is the right thing to do here. Doc tools and body guard are such cases where it's rather clear. For the banner though we don't have a rule with the same wording which is flagged as aura (or do we?).
2021/09/14 16:12:05
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
- BBK and goff interaction was not ruled according to already existing RAW, but can now trigger extra attacks from the additional hits you got. - Specialist mobs can only ride trukks. Any other specialist mob transport can't carry anything but flash gits - Biker nobz continue down the road of getting soft-squatted. Stop using your perfectly fine models and buy squig hogs you gits! Biker nobz also are neither NOBZ nor MOB, so mob rule doesn't do gak for them. You can't even use them to keep your bikers in line. - Warboss on warbike lost the ability to break heads, both as ability and stratagem - Grot tanks, big trakks and kannonwagon gained 'ere we go
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/14 16:12:12
2021/09/14 18:01:07
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
kingbbobb wrote: But there are no rules stating attacks scoring 2 hits can't generate additional attacks.
Unless I am remembering wrong. Which is possible
I think the same FAQ that nerfed the drukhari shredder succubus also stated that extra hits can't generate extra attacks. But it doesn't really matter now.
2021/09/15 05:19:59
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
RedNoak wrote: dont see how orks will ever field only one detachment... good part is, our strats are meh either way... so we are not really dependent on CP
Agree. It seems like a no-brainer to picking a patrol for free as you first detachment with one tax unit and then just add outrider, patrol, SHA and/or supreme command to field whatever the hell you want. The CP costs are completely offset by being able to bring more combat monsters, clans better suited to your units, specialist mobs and not having to bring boyz or gretchin.
What feels odd is that I'm completely fine with that.
2021/09/15 13:20:55
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
You aren't "throwing away" CP though - you get much more value for your CP this way than when you would take them into the game and tried to spend them on stratagems.
Having no great stratagems is a curse and blessing at the same time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/15 13:21:56
2021/09/16 07:48:00
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Tomsug wrote: It comes soon. I 'm waiting to finish the conversion until it officialy comes out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Competitive Innovation is out and Orks almost everywhere with 2 main builds - Freebootas with Deathskulls or BloodAxe buggy spam.
And some experiments, that was obviously also succesfull, incl goffs and sneakbites?
However, the thesis about Kommandos hiding in the Kannonwagons is super weird…
Yeah, gotta agree there, it goes against the whole point of Kommandos IMO, either you use it for early game objective grabbing and squatting in ruins, or you use them as an alpha strike unit. I don't see how they would be in a situation to go inside the kannonwagons.
I was wondering about that as well. Since the kannonwagon gets no drawbacks from just moving at full speed, maybe they drive to where the kommandoz were positioned and pick up stragglers from nearly dead units?
Hardly a super-secret tech though, possibly goonhammer is just marinesplaining orks again. The call for a points increase for dakkajets also seemed quite nonsentical.
As for nerfs, I really don't see anything requiring a price bump but squig buggies. They aren't broken good, but they are spammed way too much for a healthy game - kind of like smashas last codex. At 100 points they still would be totally fine, while still significantly hitting those lists that bring 9.
Scrapjets might be going up by 5, but I'm not convinced they have to.
In general, I feel like removing so many good kustom jobs, limiting them to single model units and overcosting those which remained was a huge design mistake. Previously it provided rewards for bringing a varied list, now people just spam the best baseline ad ultimo. If the SJD job were still there, we'd at least be seeing three types of buggies.
2021/09/16 07:49:20
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Hi there… I really struggle between fielding a Biker or a Trike as Speedboss for my Freebootaz.
a quick reminder… everything I will say is under the premise that you’ll run him to utilize a Speedwaagh. And i used to HATE the trike. Been fielding my Warboss on Bike since 4th edition, but recently i played alot with the Trike, since the rules for the bike were a mess. ...and i gotta admit, he's done alright in my games so far.
Well... thats why I wanted to make a comparison for me anyways.. so why not share my thoughts with you all. Maybe this will help someone or maybe you can find flaws in my logic.
Anyways ...the wind blows and ERE WE GO!
Profiles vs the Trike, the BikerBoss has:
+ 1 strength, + 1 toughness, -1 wound, -1 LD
the profiles are quite similar, no real winner here. The toughness isn’t as important me thinks, going from 6 to 7, it only really matters for CC but even then, ramshackle even things out, especially since the trike has one more wound. The + 1 strength could matter, but on the other hand, the trike rerolls all woundrolls. So again, not much difference. The real difference here is in the flexibility of the bike, since it can take either a klaw or bigchoppa, which can be enhanced by relics. But more on that later…
wargear
similar shooting, double dakkagunz better than triple boomsticks, but trike has the flamer/melta, so I guess the trike wins here. Also, the Trike is a vehicle, which means he can shoot all his weapons into CC. Six s5 shots and a flamer or two melta shots to the face are no joke. Those can easily pling of a wound or two, clear some chaff or with luck do massive damage against a hard opponent. in mho the trike wins the shooting game.
CC on the other hand… the basic loadout, bigchoppa or klaw vs Snagga Claw, is a draw. Yes, the bike has that magical s8 and better threshold, but because of the rerolls of the snagga claw, it insn’t that big of a deal. The biker klaw has -1 to hit, wounds better and has +1 ap, the coppa has one less ap than the snagga. The snagga rerolls all wounds. Imho the choppa as a standalone weapon is worse. Maybe the klaw is slightly better than the snagga? It matters mainly vs high toughness targets and the extra ap could come in handy. AGAIN, relics and stuff will matter, but we’re not there yet Overall, the Trike has better shooting and slightly worse basic CC weapon, but can also shoot into CC, so at best a draw, I personally see the Trike ahead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Abilities:
here the clear winner is the trike. It can do everything the bike can, but also as the ability to advance 9” instead of 6 and he has mighty ramshackle… and he can use Rammingspeed, which is kinda of a big deal. Bummer that the bike didn’t receive the cloud of smoke.
warlordtraits / relics
The traits are the same for both. But the Trike can’t receive any relics at all. The bike can boost his damage output by taking either the Headwompa or the Kklaw, which makes him clearly better in CC. you could combine further offensive strats like BbK to really make him a monster in CC. Bike clearly wins here….
….BUUUT the real question is DO YOU REALLY WANT TO? Lets be honest here. Both are ok’ish in terms of survivability (only real CC dedicated units can one shot them, and both can take a at least one or two lasCans to the face) but to really boost em into “A-Tier-level” they need the Ard as Nails trait, which leaves the CC abilities of both in the “ok’ish” area. The relics help the Biker a lot to push him into “good-tier” but without BbK, it will never be “A”.
I always used the Biker as a “Kill what I want missile unit” but that doesn’t work anymore. He can’t advance and charge and needs to be the Warlord cause how speedwaagh works. Honestly nowadays me thinks he’s more of a support/countercharge unit (like the trike). He doesn’t need to destroy everything he touches in one round. And honestly with all the -1 dmg, -1 tohit, only 4+ to wound and loss of the 4dmg swing he really can’t.
Conclusion
All in all I really can’t see a clear winner. Both are very niche anyway, and in some instances the Trike will be better in certain configurations, other times it will be the Bike.
If you still want to use a speedboss as a “remove what I touch” unit, go with the bike, headwompa or kklaw and BbK, but be prepared to lose him afterwards.
As a countercharge/support unit I would go with the Trike. Give him hard as Nails and ramspeed him into whatever threatens your important stuff.
The thing is… We have better options for hard hitting HQ’s (looking at the Squigosaur especially). So I would say Check what other HQ’s you have, what traits and relics THEY need and THEN decide if you want a bike or a trike, both are good at what they do. Just PLEASE forget the missilebiker of 8th, he doesn’t exist enymore and will only coud your judgement.
Very good analysis, pretty much sums up my feeling on the topic perfectly.
2021/09/16 08:29:16
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
True, but GW has been reluctant to balance stuff through any other means but changing CP or points, which is related to them insisting on using books as their primary rules medium.
Changing ranges and strength would be such a great tool for balancing units, but it's nothing that I expect to happen.
But taking this further would mean that I break my own rules and I can't stand hypocrites
2021/09/16 10:03:43
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
pismakron wrote: What is our best tool for Turn 1 charges? Trukkboyz have amazing threatrange, but they are a bit on the expensive side. Do we have other options with a decent threatrange?
In my opinion, T1 charges are nothing you should including in your primary game plan. Orks aren't drukhari and many things we could potential charge in turn 1 match or outmatch us in melee, and you opponent has a great amount of control over what you can charge, how many units you can get in engagement range, etc. Worst case, they are protected by fight last abilities. And even if you take a chunk out of your opponent with an insane bonebreaka, kill rig, buggy, piston dread, beastboss or warboss charge, you have tossed that tool away for the rest of the game.
What you should be looking for is counter-charges. If you go first setting up units like trukkboyz or scrapjets in a safe position and then jump on a target of your choice turn 2, so you can do the fight on your terms. A good way to do this is to position them near objectives in such away that they can only reached by hail-marry charges by units that plan to move there. If they take the chance you get overwatch (evaluate if it's worth the CP) and draw the charging unit off objectives, while also potentially reducing models that can fight. If they don't take the chance or fail, in your turn you can then move in to charge them and flip the objective.
If you go second, it's an in your opponent's hands anyways. Aggressively deployed alpha-strike units primarily serve as disruption to their plans, only go for the T1 charge if it's actually beneficial for you (trade up, flip objectives, take out high priority target, tie down high damage shooting units). A good opponent will try to bait you into easy fights, just to take out a valuable unit on their terms. Fight smart, bully the weak, kill wot comes close
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/16 10:04:55
2021/09/18 19:52:03
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
In any case, the stompa is not a character and therefore cannot have relics.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: Yes they dropped its price significantly, but they also took away the Psycho Dakka rule so its main gun shoots about 1/2 as much.
I'm super curious what narrative you will spin this time to explain how going from 3d6 + (3d6 * 0.8444) with a 16.66% chance of breaking the gun to dakka 24/16 is shooting 50% less.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/18 20:01:37
2021/09/19 10:37:02
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
What others have said. Page 68 (ork relics) clearly tells us that relics can only be given to characters, and while page 52 (clan relics) doesn't repeat that limitation, you need to be eligible for a relic to pick a clan relic instead. In addition, the examples on page 52 make it quite clear that <clan> relics can only be given to <clan> characters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/19 10:37:10
2021/09/19 21:12:58
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Eh, you've probably missed just as many things that would have been in your favor. That's just how the first few games with a new codex go.
If stuff like that happens to me, the next time I meet the player I accidentally cheated, I explain the situation and apologize. It's not like they aren't going to find out eventually anyways, but this way you at least come across as honest and sporting.
