Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Dendarien wrote:
Octarius preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/04/its-a-stealth-vs-speed-showdown-between-blood-axes-and-speed-freeks-in-war-zone-octarius/

Speed freek detachment gets no Klan kulturs.

Blood Axe stuff so far looks meh outside the Fight Detecta.

Seems kinda dumb, if not unexpected, that the speed freek detachment doesn't get kulturs (evil sunz? wut). A lot of their ruleset basically gives us Ravenwing-lite rules, which is good assuming we can give them the our buggies, since it gives some needed mobility for our shorter ranged weapons for scrapjets and an invuln not reliant on a KFF. Feel like it does less for warbikers though.

Blood Axes strats are kinda weird, not sure how its worth 2CP to basically become Goffs in combat but with the additional condition of having multiple Blood Axe units in a fight.

Madjob wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
How do orks like the new leaderships? My regular opponent is an ork and we finaly got a lot of games in.

Love tapping boys and removing 2 or 3 boys just seems to start them failingleadership. And big units is just a no-no.

It's pretty brutal. If there's one thing GW is worse at than pricing appropriately for shooting units with BS5+ it's pricing appropriately for units with poor leadership and no morale mitigation. The price increase on Boyz was unwarranted when they'd already compensated for the buffs they'd given with the nerf to mob rule. I do think straight up ignoring morale is fairly lame and don't think the old version of mob rule ought to have remained, but this was the wrong way to address it.

It pretty much highlights GW's problem with rules writing for morale in general. They put it in the game but then faction rules or strats either straight up let you ignore it (i.e. synapse or Rubric Marines) or you have enough ways to mitigate it that it through MSU or stuff like ATSKNF that its effectively only going to only come up like once or twice a game.

It's been a problem even since 5th ed, it's always been an all or nothing affair and smaller units have almost always been able to game the system too. Fearless with No Retreat meant power armoured guys like KB would be able to tank the losses they suffered in combat from morale whereas sufficient losses on the side of a big mob of boyz meant we could lose an entire unit depending on how many boyz died in combat. The worst part is that some factions suffer from it more disproportionately than others. Morale really should be about debuffs on a unit rather than fleeing, like -1 to hit, halved movement, being unable to do actions, etc.

 Jidmah wrote:
Morale is a weird thing anyways when in the fluff essentially all but two factions wouldn't hesitate one second before charging a building-sized daemon towering above them. And one of those factions would do it anyways after their superior officer was shot in the head by a comissar.

Yeah, 40k's setting is such that regular ideas of morale in warfare basically don't exist since so many warriors have either a death wish, are inured to fear, or are automotons. So when you do lose a model to morale, it's supposed to potentially reflect people dragging back their wounded amongst other things but it ultimately feels like a very "lose more" mechanic when it should be more nuanced especially for armies that are like Necrons or Nids where they wouldn't care about casualties.

Holy moly. It's shocking to me how quickly GW reacts to when Orks get even a whiff of competitive ability that they respond with such an uncompromising and unuanced way of trying to shut it down. The ruleset for Orks hasn't even been out for that long and they've already resorted to the nerfhammer in a way that actively screws most Ork player collections. Meanwhile when its other factions they take their sweet time making slight changes that doesn't fundamentally alter the structure of building an army.

 Tomsug wrote:
Old codex buggies were better. To play with them was more complex and more fun than this freeboota nonsence and there was no pressure for such stupid nerfs

It was certainly more intuitive and straightforward to use versus whatever arbitrary limitations they've used now to limit the abuse of one buggy (squigbuggies). The main weakness of old buggies was that they were somewhat over reliant on kustom jobs for performance, but if they had the stats and prices of the same ones now and we toned down the kustom jobs a bit (while also making sure they were actually available to the entire squadron) I think we would be in a pretty good spot for them to have a more focused approach in handling outliers in performance. Instead we get a bizarre blanket restriction that frankly will just hurt their bottom line. I guess enough buggies have sold that they don't care anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Gw just always flips out when orks are meta, still pouring one out for nob bikers, the salt is fresh in the wound for Sags, and a good hunk of my mek guns and now buggies being unplayable is a fresh slap in the face.

Legit. It's very weird that GW seems so complacent when other factions have their time in the sun, but the moment Orks get a glimpse of warmth it's instant eclipse on us ladz.

gungo wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Hah hah I have been playing since end of 4th, maining nids (+ later gsc) and orks, and have seen my fair share of GW nonsense with xenos armies. But this takes the cookie. We have been hit so hard I don’t even have words for it

This isn’t hard YET
Expect more nerfs… with a points hike in Chapter approved
I’m serious.. look at how they handled greentide…
Boys weren’t that great but they did well last edition by swarming somewhat cheap bodies on the board and trying to hold objectives… we did okay for a bit until armies got way more lethal but players complained our army was to slow to play against… and so GW did a triple nerf on them.
Completely gutted all morale
Removed the green tide strategem
And then it still makes no sense to me they removed the +1 atk over 20 models for boys..
There is no reason to play large squads of boys now and somehow they think this is a good job.

If they do just hit the buggies with price hikes and do nothing else with the update for Orks, we will be stuck using the alpha ork strike list of kommandos and trukk boyz and that's it. I'm fine with that being one of the competitive archetypes, but nothing else? It'd be a damn travesty. Especially since other stuff like battlewagon brigade, green tide and dred mob are non-starters atm. We seriously need a proper greenskin advocate on the GW writing team because clearly no one actually mains Orks as an army there.

They really should just make a separate shoota boy and slugga boy datasheet to be honest. It's been very rare when they've been balanced against one another (the closest I think was 5th edition and early 8th ed) and having separate datasheets makes it so they can specialize in making the primary weapon relevant.

Shoota boyz should either be BS4+ base or have some type of mob ability where a squad of 11+ or more gets +1 to hit if they all shoot at the same target. Maybe even increasing the number of shots they make with their shootas?

Slugga boyz get back their old +1A if there's 11+ or more in the squad.

In both cases, bosspoles should come back to allow you to reroll failed morale and +1Ld as others have mentioned for every 10 boyz in the squad. Having Nobz and Warbosses buff that further also makes it so we don't just have a CC buff and a ridiculously overpriced ignore morale strat (should be 0CP).

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
They really should just make a separate shoota boy and slugga boy datasheet to be honest. It's been very rare when they've been balanced against one another (the closest I think was 5th edition and early 8th ed) and having separate datasheets makes it so they can specialize in making the primary weapon relevant.

I can assure you that the only reason to run slugga boyz in 5th was because you could get them cheap from AOBR

Haha, you're not wrong!

If they also at least made the caveat that you could advance and shoot with Dakka weapons with a -1 to hit penalty, it would make so many Ork units more mobile again without having to rely on a regiment of renown.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ugh, the ork codex is such a mess in that regard.

When looking at the masterfully crafted DG codex where everything locks into each other with next to no rules issues, creative and flavorful mechanics and great gameplay feel for almost every unit, and then look at the cobbled-together ramshackle piece of scrap that the ork codex is, I wonder how both these books can come out of the same rules team.

Well, at least it's a fun piece of scrap.

Yeah, I believe another poster said it best that it seems like there were different teams writing rulesets for separate parts of the codex at the same time that they then had to mash their together into one codex on short notice in order to make it in time for the printers to churn them out. There's definitely a general lack of synergy and it feels like the majority of our units just kind of exist with one another rather than having a clear design philsophy of how which units are meant to support one another.

Better than the 7th ed codex and whatever malarky the WAAAGH! Ghazzy supplement was.

Forceride wrote:
Not sure if it would be a solution. But to me, to fix boyz would be something like... giving painboy an apothecary like treatment, where it could raise 2d3 boys a turn, it would solve some of the issues and solidify it as mandatory support for boyz bricks. this would counteract the massive attrition boyz receive through the game.

But still boyz needing something like that just says how dysfunctional they are. To me they should just remake them. Suggesting point decrease wont fundamentally change their issue, it will feels like a band aid.

But maybe a better solution will be found, not that i am confident on GW.

Frankly, I always felt like it was a missed opportunity that Painboyz couldn't give some type of "Fighty Juice" buff to one unit with 3" of them that makes an Ork unit either faster, hit harder, or tankier, at the risk of taking mortal wounds at the end of the phase depending on which you chose. I feel like it's very hard to scale the durability on horde units without it being obnoxious or pointless as it is right now. Though the 2D3 boyz honestly might be a good compromise versus just giving out a 6+++ save.

I have to give SemperMortis a shout out with regards to his Alphork list that he shared earlier. I ran an approximation of his army list and did very well with it, even after going 2nd. I was able to borderline table my CSM opponent by T2 who was running a World Eaters Khorne Berserker list supported by Dreadclaws and a Khorne Daemon detachment. My kommandos forward deployed far enough that even on T1 he was forced to basically just drop pod deploy his berserkers in his own deployment zone and unfortunately he rolled terribly even with rerolls and +1 to charge, meaning he couldn't get the drop on my kommandos. Only his Bloodthirster was able to clear one of my kommando units. My turn 1 I called a WAAAGH! and was able to get pretty much all the units I needed to get into combat and was able to wipe out all his berserker squads and BT, while leaving his Heldrake on one wound remaining. At this point, he was left with only his two CSM HQ's, 2 dreadclaws and a full unit of Bloodcrushers that deep struck and managed to charge a Trukk and explode it and charge again with a strat into my deffkoptas and MA Warboss, but was only able to kill the deffkoptas and left my MA Warboss with 3 wounds remaining (what a tanky boy!). At that point I had full board control and he knew I was going to countercharge him so he conceded. Definitely a fun alternative to Traffic Jam: The Army List.

gungo wrote:
Semper, are you upgrading your triple patrol list with the new bloodaxe Strats/clan in that tournament? There seemed to be some decent stuff in the bloodaxe codex for it.

I mean without the speedwaagh guy you defeated having enough aircraft to block your assault freebooter buggies have a hard time when they are locked in combat. I mean he should have still used 2 to a pretty good effect of making g your charges longer and harder but it’s no longer easy to block off all paths to assault.

I honestly think orks have 3 decent competitive lists…
Freebooter speedwaagh alpha strike-now with other buggies- (this list was taken down a bit)
Army of renown bike/buggy spam- (looks strongest but has its own issues with missions)
And the triple patrol rush assault- (fun and strong but might have issues with certain lists, knight freeblade lists, greyknights, and other strong assault focus lists.. drukari?

Yeah, I think about sums up the majority of our competitive archetypes atm. Not bad at all, all things considered. Do hope they make some other units more viable within those archetypes or something towards our Walker units though. Stuff like lootas, tankbustas, flash gitz and Dred Mob really fall behind compared to some of our other stuff in the army.

 Jidmah wrote:
Lootas have already been in a list placing second at a GT

Huh, must have missed that one! Fair point and I'm pleasantly surprised. I do feel Lootas could go down a smidge at the very least though points wise, maybe 2 points? Definitely not at the top of the list that needs points revision though.

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO lootas are just what shoota boyz should be. They definitely could use a point drop though.

Ain't that the truth? Shoota Boyz are in a really rough spot right now, mass S4 AP0 shooting with no gimmicks generally ain't that great this edition.

In the proposed rules form, one of the things I suggested was creating an alternate profile for shoota boyz altogether (both slugga and shoota boyz go down to 8ppm):

Shoota boyz would have BS4+ base, but 1 base attack. For units of 11+ or more, Shoota boyz get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons.

Funnily enough, the first response I got was asking if that wouldn't be broken lol. Goes to show how little people understand how Ork units work.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2.

He is not allowed to do that though... that's why you deploy terminators on the board against armies trying to go for T1 charges. I remain with my initial opinion though, I don't think that we was a great player and I can't really tell what happens when you meet one. Might go either way.

Nvm, Semper cleared things up.

blufury wrote:
When are we able to start using speedfreak rules? Is the book officially out yet?

I believe it finally was out this past weekend, since pre-orders were the weekend before last week's. So yes, it should be out and usable now.

cody.d. wrote:
To chip in to the shoota boy discussion. I kinda think they should be given a combat knife of some sort, so you can give their melee swings AP1 without the extra attack. Essentially making them regular boys who just happen to be able to shoot a bit before charging in to finish off the wounded unit where an ork belongs, in combat. Works well with the 9inch dakka range and all.

I feel like that potentially brings back in the issue of them being better than slugga boyz to some extent though, because they then get to maximize both shooting and follow up CC afterwards. I'd much rather they be good at shooting and slugga boyz are better at CC rather than shoota boyz being effectively better at both.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah i prefer it when things are not capable of both melee and shooting unless theyre a character or big bad thing.

Shoota boyz need a shooting boost. I feel like raw AP or shots boost alone would just be stale and either not be enough or breach the tipping point of suddenly theyre waaaay better.
Issue being is thats probably all they'd get if anything. Theyre not gonna give some interesting new mechanic to shoota boyz (such as a compounding shot that gets better the more units of shootas hit the target)

Yeah, I feel like if they had the old dakkajet rule of getting +1 to hit if the entire unit shoots at the same target that would be a nice way of representing the sheer wall of bullets coming from the unit. I'm not sure what else we could to represent the volume of shots other than exploding 6's of some sort.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Problem with that is high volume of shots is even more magnetic to complaints than super reliable deadly things.
Because when you roll hot even once it stands out like a sore thumb.

Case in point i just did a crusade game where i had 6 warbikers firing 60 shots. No outside buffs outside of the More Dakka strat to get said 60 shots.
Caused 37 wounds against a marine squad. Not hits....wounds...i rolled THAT hot lol. And even though those bikers proceeded to get obliterated right after that was still a focal point of post-game talk.Not because i was lucky but because "they fire so many damn shots how do you survive against that!?"
Im like....you do know that statistically i should have had less than half that right? lol

Yeah, that's the problem with a dice game compared to a video game. You have the potential to spike stats way higher than possible which means people only remember the outliers and not the times you rolled like 20 1's. I feel people are especially bad with this for Orks for some reason. I still have an Eldar, Tau and Sisters player that still have PTSD those few games where my SSAG one-shotted a flyer or some other unit they had. Makes me roll my eyes coming from armies that had strength D spam and scatbikes.

 Blackie wrote:
Shoota boys don't really make sense at the moment. They can definitely go down one point, but as a buff I'd like them to gain AP-1 on 6s to wound as a built in ability, of course cumulative with Bad Moons bonus. Drukhari style.

Flat BS4+ for a standard non gretchin unit is not orky, and flat AP-1 could be too powerful. Not even big shootas or bikers have flat AP-1. Assault trait on shoota could be a bonus, so is the extra shot of the new profile though. I think I prefer dakka 3/2 than assault 2 to be honest, shoota boyz hitting on 6s never achieved anything.

To be fair, I think BS should have AP-1 baseline to begin with but I guess that's besides the point. I could see 6's to wound making it gain -1AP. Though it would be interesting if we had a strat that increases the AP of either dakka weapons or shootas specifically, since there is fluff precedent in the past (5th ed, during Assault on Black Reach), where Warboss Zanzag was able to create supa shootas that could pierce through power armour, though not terminator armour.

Also, I'm not entirely sure we should be that averse to having BS4+ on some of our dedicated shooty units. We basically get work-arounds anyways built into the rules (periscopes, targeting squigs) and Flash Gitz are a demonstration that some Orks do just aim. I mean, prior to the our 5th ed codex, I believe we had BS4+ as our base shooting stat. If need be, we can up the cost accordingly, but it does solve some of the issues of us rolling ineffectual 6's to hit in the cases of all the -1 to hit mods being thrown around nowadays.

Frankly speaking, I'd much rather prefer they make boyz worth the 8-9 points they're worth versus slashing their points cost. I always liked it when mid-sized mobs were okay to bring and I don't like that bringing Green Tide was the only good way to bring boyz for quite a few editions. Having a nice middle ground is always good and buffing boyz to keep their numbers down also makes it easier for newer Ork players to start the faction.

Finished! Thanks again Jidmah!

Madjob wrote:
It's a random assortment but actually a decent starting point to build out from. Nothing feels too niche that the average Ork player would regret picking it up.

Ehhhh, I would heavily disagree with that. For Orks, we aren't like marines where you have a reasonably functional army if you pick units at random. Orks really rely on skew or hyper-focused lists to perform even adequately in most environments, even if they aren't hypercompetitive. A convential combined arms approach for Orks is a set up for disaster and the box set is exactly that. The Deffkilla Wartrike will force the list into a Speedwaaagh when pretty much only the dakkajet can benefit meaningfully from it. You have Ork boyz and Nobz with no Trukk support to go with them, a random unit of grots that I guess works for backfield objective holding. The SAG Mek is pretty meh as far as fire support goes and will be far from enough to deal with any actual enemy vehicles that your army comes across.

A better composition would have been:

Ork Warboss on Foot (Grukk model)
2 Ork boyz kits
Dakkajet
2 Units of Mega Nobz (so you can build a KFF MA Big Mek with one of them)
2 Trukks

If they wanted to keep the Speed Freeks kind of format it should be:

Deffkilla Wartrike
6 Warbikerz
Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy
Megatrakk Scrapjet
Kustom Boosta Blasta
Dakkajet

But that's just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Jidmah makes me to count my orks. And guys, this is a problem. I have over 10k p of orks, almost 8000p them are fullpainted.

And I don ' t have enough models to build the list I want.

Non of the lists I want.

Simply… not enough dakka.

Is there a chance, it will be better anytime soon? Or do I simply need about 30k to have at least some dakka?

Funny story, i made a comment in the local discord about the new xmas ork boxing being the usual assortment of random units instead of stuff that works together and i immediately got "YOU HAVE ENOUGH ORKS STOP B****ING" lol....

That's how you know you got non-Orkses in the chat, proppa greenies know the WAAAGH! never stops growin!

 Jidmah wrote:

 addnid wrote:
It is best not to talk about Wahapedia so it stays under the radar

They've already been contacted by GW's legal team, so I guess the cat is out of the bag.

AFAIK, can GW even do anything? It's under a Russian website, so just like China, I don't think you can litigate IP since both countries basically don't give a flying fart.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 addnid wrote:
It is best not to talk about Wahapedia so it stays under the radar

They've already been contacted by GW's legal team, so I guess the cat is out of the bag.

AFAIK, can GW even do anything? It's under a Russian website, so just like China, I don't think you can litigate IP since both countries basically don't give a flying fart.

Well, they can still send him e-mails. Apparently he posted them on his patreon

AFAIK in UK there also is this odd law that they need to at least try to do something about their IP, otherwise other people can point to that case as precedent.

Ah, gotcha, so you got to do the song and dance even if you know there might not be any real result. Makes sense.

IP law always felt like it was a pain in the arse to manage.

In any case, I'm glad at the very least that our Combat Patrol is significantly better than the Christmas offering box for Orks. I guess we still got the Red Gobbo on Bounca?

Hey guys, I'm doing a fun semi-casual list with a dred mob style list. I'm guessing that I should go for a Warboss for a regular WAAAGH since the +1A is more relevant for our walkers than the extra AP for shooting?

XC18 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Hey guys, I'm doing a fun semi-casual list with a dred mob style list. I'm guessing that I should go for a Warboss for a regular WAAAGH since the +1A is more relevant for our walkers than the extra AP for shooting?

If your list does not have a specifically strong ranged game then the +1A is a bit better, but honestly both types of waaaggh works well with dreadmob.
(I had rokkit kans and morka shooting out a unit of custodes in a speedwaaagh turn lol)

I'm curious what will be your dread list.
I am still testing mine and so far I feel like that a 50/50 dreamob/regular list gives best results. ('regular list' being infantry and fast elements for scoring objectives).
So I always ends up with
>Warboss / 2 trukkboys/ 2-3 kommandos / deffkoptas / flyer for regular list (it's a mini alphork !)
> 3 rokkit kans / 3-4 deffdread /1 Megadread / 1 Naut (Gorka or Morka depending)
Gives a solid build against regular lists (but no idea how it would be against top tourney list)

Interesting that we came to somewhat similar conclusions for the army build! Mine is using MekBoss Buzzgob to see how the +1 to hit ability is for the Morkanaut/Kanz, my rough draft list is this currently:



Definitely not the most optimized, but I'm up for any advice. I was considering Thraka but he's too expensive IMO for a 1500 point list. If it was 2000 i'd definitely put him in over my regular Warboss.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Good point with the no man's land being usually 18 inches. And with three Trukk bosses, at least one should be in range for sure.

Do you take the extra traits/relics on the bosses? I've found that in most of my games starting at low CP isn't that bad because there aren't that many Strats I want to use in game anyway.

In my experience of taking the alphork route that Semper has set up, I definitely use up CP for extra relics and traits. That's what pushes the bosses over, IMO, into "can't ignore" territory, since you it gives them either extra survivability or damage that makes it so your opponent has to either dedicate real resources to eliminate or has to avoid in terms of the damage it can do. Usually you give the one with Da Killa Klaw Brutal But Kunnin, and I give the Mega Armour Warboss variant 'Ard as Nails alongside either the Krushin Armour or Supa Cybork Body depending on the armies you face. The third warboss I usually give the Eadwompa's Killchoppa.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Also to comment on the Deffkoptas vs bikers...

I do run them in freebooters but have also run them in badmoon (which works great for +6 to range, 6's are -1 and the 1cp Strat showin' off).

But I prefer them because of how survivable they are. For 150 pts you get 18 t5 wounds at an inbuilt -1 to hit vs 12 t5 without a -1 (and they have 3 wounds, which means that d2 weapons are ineffective against them, which is nice)

Also their shooting is more effective vs 2 wound infantry, because you aren't burning a wound on each death. Shooting on average Deffkoptas are killing 2 marines in the shooting phase, and so are bikes.

In CC Deffkoptas do 9 wounds to MEQ, killing 4.5

If you pay the 10 pts for a PK the bikes are doing 5 wounds plus the PK kills 1 marine a turn. Killing 3 on average.

So they're on average doing roughly the same damage in each phase.

All that just to say, I think we're using them in different applications. You're using Deffkoptas alpha strike and I'm using 9xbikes to score objectives, control the board, and not die. But you've put a bug in my ear about the defkoptas! I think I'll try a squad in my next game just to see how they fair.

It's funny you mention the damage for deffkoptas, because I feel like more often than not, the flat 3 damage is never wasted. There's so much -1D abilities now that I feel like 3D is needed to even do anything to multi-wound models in 9th ed.