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This chain came after the "there is a unit with the Krieg keyword in it":

Death Riders FTW!

Dual build kit with rough riders? Or just no rough riders at all?

Ok_Entrepreneur3004
2 points
·
1 day ago
Rough riders yes, death riders no

Then there was this, after that bit was settled:

Will there be attilan rough rider bits?

Ok_Entrepreneur3004
1 point
·
4 hours ago
Yup

I know there's a lot of potential conjecture, but the line of discussion points towards:

-There are not Death Riders in the codex. There are Rough Riders. There are Attillan Rough Rider bits in there, and there's also Death Korps Rough Rider parts.

Reddit makes some of this stuff a lot harder to follow, so maybe I'm just reading into it something which is not really there...but it does kind of jibe with what we've seen. Cadian Shock Troops are supposed to always have the Cadian keyword. It would make sense for Death Korps of Krieg Siege Troopers(or whatever) to have the same thing happen.

Add in the rumors of Grenadiers/Engineers, no confirmation on the Kasrkin being said to have their own datasheet(just that whatever they are is "restricted to 3, tops"), the rumored "Death Riders"(which might just have been Rough Riders from the get-go!) and it looks like they're adding some potential localized variants of things.

I think Vim is meaning that the other sponson has a second multi-melta...

That said, it would have to be an extremely weird angle for that to happen, since there's none of the 'slant' that it has otherwise.

It didn't say that.

It said there was not a Death Riders unit in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
This chain came after the "there is a unit with the Krieg keyword in it":

Death Riders FTW!

Dual build kit with rough riders? Or just no rough riders at all?

Ok_Entrepreneur3004
2 points
·
1 day ago
Rough riders yes, death riders no

Then there was this, after that bit was settled:

Will there be attilan rough rider bits?

Ok_Entrepreneur3004
1 point
·
4 hours ago
Yup

I know there's a lot of potential conjecture, but the line of discussion points towards:

-There are not Death Riders in the codex. There are Rough Riders. There are Attillan Rough Rider bits in there, and there's also Death Korps Rough Rider parts.

Reddit makes some of this stuff a lot harder to follow, so maybe I'm just reading into it something which is not really there...but it does kind of jibe with what we've seen. Cadian Shock Troops are supposed to always have the Cadian keyword. It would make sense for Death Korps of Krieg Siege Troopers(or whatever) to have the same thing happen.

Add in the rumors of Grenadiers/Engineers, no confirmation on the Kasrkin being said to have their own datasheet(just that whatever they are is "restricted to 3, tops"), the rumored "Death Riders"(which might just have been Rough Riders from the get-go!) and it looks like they're adding some potential localized variants of things.

*shrug*

We'll see in the end though, won't we? Maybe there's parts, maybe there's not.

Codex Daemons just got announced today, so we're getting closer!

gungo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Codex Daemons just got announced today, so we're getting closer!

Close is relative :p
World eaters and squats can be before guard :/
But the pic leaks show the marketing pictures are already being printed.. sooo

OK_E has Guard after Chaos+Daemons and before WE and Leagues.

OK_E wrote: was going to mention this You can have two guards with special weapons in the cadian shock troop unit and no heavy weapon so it makes sense to combine it with the kasrkin

This was, for context, in a Reddit thread about someone speculating after seeing the Angron v Cadian photos.

It has rather solidified my thinking that whereever OK_E is in relation to upcoming releases? It's not somewhere that they see physical products but rather see book related material.

Field reports are coming in. The spymaster is pleased.

OK_E wrote:The combat patrol consists of...

Cadian shock troops Field ordinance battery Armoured sentinel Cadian command squad

Just a little bit of information for you

You won't be running pure cadians (of course you could) You will be able to mix and match different regiments into one force.

Your army bonus doesn't care that half is catachan and the other krieg, you'll still get your army rule.

The only benefit in running say a unit of catachan is to use a strat like "vicious traps"

In enemy charge phase spend X cp When a unit is charged and is in terrain, roll a d6 +1 if unit is catachan or guerrillas +1 if unit has a melta mine +1 if sly marbo is on the battlefield

On a 2-5 the enemy unit suffers d3 mortal wounds, on a 6+ the enemy unit suffers 2d3 mortal wounds

Field Ordnance is not the new heavy weapons team, per OK_E.

Three big guns (or rockets) to a squad

Regarding the Cadians and Command Squad:

New for both

A Poster on Reddit wrote:So we're getting new stock Guardsmen?

Also, any idea on the release date? A Kasrkin character maybe? Anything new for the Scions?

Ok_E wrote:Nope, nope, nope

Scions range is now 24" get the regiments bonus and also 6's to hit score additional hits

What it looks like is the case?
There's "Regiments of Renown"(Catachans, Cadians, Krieg, etc) and then something generically vague. The "Vicious Traps" bit I had quoted earlier applies to "if unit is Catachan or guerillas". I wouldn't be shocked if there's a vague "army type" you can pick, ala Guerillas or Veterans or whatever.

Bombast field gun

Heavy lascannon

Malleus rocket launcher

This could be good.

after daemons but before LoV.

As of right now, the only "definitive" part is that Ok_E over on reddit said that Guard come after CSM and Daemons.

There's been rumours floating around for quite some time that League is getting an army pack to start with, then a regular release after that.

Pretty sure that Guard were meant to already be out by now. The August coin was an Honorifica Imperialis.

OK_E wrote:There is no more special weapons or veteran squads anymore

I feel okay with this.

From earlier on, it's been noted that regular squads are going to 2 specials and no heavies.

Heavy Weapon Squads aren't gone, per what has been said

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How are they being invalidated? Your heavy weapon squad models can still be used, just not as part of a regular guardsman squad.

Many of us build and paint units as complete units with squad markings, names and stories, etc. "Just use the models in some other unit" is not an acceptable solution.

And many of us know how to remove decals or how to paint over squad markings or can alter that made-up story we had in the first place (since our stuff isn't canon) to fit with the new reality of the upcoming book.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Heavy Weapon Squads aren't gone, per what has been said

Oh great, so HWS are still around, that makes it perfectly fine that infantry squads,

Infantry Squads don't include Heavy Weapon Teams in their boxed set, unless you're buying the GSC Brood Brothers box or bought older metal kits.

veterans

Who have never had a kit.

and SWS are wrecked by some idiot at GW that doesn't care about anything but next quarter's financial report.

SWS were wrecked the first time the far, far superior D-99 versions were ever showcased.

Sucks for you then. My Cadians are going to be just fine.

Bluntly?

You're the only one causing problems for yourself.

This isn't like Skitarii, where they flatout janked that unit profile. Or like any of the CSM stuff where they did the same thing.

You literally can fix the problem yourself. But for some reason, you're acting like your fan-created stuff should be enshrined and treated as official lore.

Optional upgrades are optional.

Additionally, heavy weapons were detached from the HW platoons so wouldn't have the same unit markings...which are the self-created problems I referred to.

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I really don't think there's anything unreasonable about people feeling upset when GW makes changes to an army that negatively impact the time and energy they've devoted to their collection.

Those same people are the ones who kept telling me to suck it up when I had to pull apart my Sergeants and Officers after the Doctrines book went to the Cruddace book. They're the same ones who told me to suck it up when GW just recently flipped Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard loadouts onto their head.

They'll be fine.

I don't know why they're removing heavy weapons from infantry squads. Was this really a problem? Maybe there's a good reason, but nothing is coming to mind.

This is all assuming that infantry squads are staying. Cadian Shock Troops, Catachan Jungle Fighters, and Death Korps all are getting their own unit profiles.

Removing veterans seems like it must be motivated by the no-model-no-rule policy, which has never been in the best interest of the hobbiest.

Or because it was a terrible unit concept. There was nothing that made them unique or interesting outside of "they get more special weapons".

Since Scions are available as troop choices under some circumstances, maybe they just want to encourage players to build armies with those models?

There's no "circumstances". They're just plain Troop choices.

Honestly, I just hope they bring back the old Infantry Platoon in some form or other. That was so central to the guard's identity.

It really wasn't though. It just reinforced Cruddace's trashy trope of Stalingradian Guardsmen.

Anyways, I've been saying for YEARS that Infantry Squads were going to lose Heavy Weapon Teams. And there's literally no excuse to be this upset, as unless you're working exclusively with the old metal squad boxes? You had 10 models in your IS box, then had to buy HWTs separately.

 xttz wrote:

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I really don't think there's anything unreasonable about people feeling upset when GW makes changes to an army that negatively impact the time and energy they've devoted to their collection.

I don't know why they're removing heavy weapons from infantry squads. Was this really a problem? Maybe there's a good reason, but nothing is coming to mind.

If I had to guess I'd say it's because they want to keep releasing variant plastic guardsmen squads (such as Catachan or Steel Legion) via Kill Team in future, without the baggage of matching heavy weapons dudes.

The new rules seem designed to let people mix up different squads without needing to re-buy or re-paint the entire army.

Catachans are coming with the codex, per OK_E...but how large of a release is not yet known.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You literally can fix the problem yourself.

Scrapping existing units is not an acceptable solution. Changing the rules for how these units work after literal decades of people building units that way is a complete TFG move by GW.

Oh no, GW's actually paying attention to Guard as more than just a cursory reprinting of older rules! Whatever shall we do?!

This change is long overdue.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Optional upgrades are optional.

Additionally, heavy weapons were detached from the HW platoons so wouldn't have the same unit markings...which are the self-created problems I referred to.

"It's all your fault for using the options that were provided."

Is there a limit to your GW apologism? Is there any line they can cross where you won't white knight for them?

Ah, ad hominems. Boy howdy.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Those same people are the ones who kept telling me to suck it up when I had to pull apart my Sergeants and Officers after the Doctrines book went to the Cruddace book. They're the same ones who told me to suck it up when GW just recently flipped Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard loadouts onto their head.

That's certainly a theory you can have. In the real world, no, I haven't told you any of those things. And regardless of what these hypothetical "same people" have said in the past it's still a profoundly stupid and anti-consumer move by GW to do this.

Yes, it's so much more stupid and anti-consumer than--say--having an army that requires almost 3x the price for an initial buy-in as other armies.

Where a single troops choice requires you to buy 3 separate boxes just to fill out the options. And not because you're doing duplicates or a larger than base unit. But because the kits are older than some of your bloody customers.

If you want me to specify "it's the same type of person" rather than "these are literally the exact same people", sure thing then. You're the same type of person who told me those things.

Or because it was a terrible unit concept. There was nothing that made them unique or interesting outside of "they get more special weapons".

Not interesting to you maybe. Some of us like having elite guardsmen with improved stats and better gear.

looool.
What better gear? You got 2 more special weapon options. You didn't get Carapace Armor, you didn't get anything unique or interesting to showcase how they were veterans.

Literally anything and everything for Veterans is "they get more special weapon options!".

But at least your position here fits with your stated "I've got mine, screw you" approach to the game, if you don't like a particular unit why should anyone else be able to use it?

Or maybe, just maybe, I didn't like them because there were far far more interesting design concepts that got axed to keep people like yourself who wanted to keep a status quo intact happy? Units like the Kasrkin, concepts like the Grenadiers or Detachment 99's unique version of Special Weapon Squads were far, far, faaaaaaaaar more interesting.

Veterans were boring. They've been boring for some time. They provided nothing unique or interesting to the army, given that they were simply Infantry Squads +1. One of the few things Cruddace's book did okay was the addition of veteran skills/"traits"(really these were just loadouts).

 Kanluwen wrote:
You had 10 models in your IS box, then had to buy HWTs separately.

Who cares what's in the box? How GW chooses to package their units is irrelevant and "no model no rules" is a profoundly stupid approach to game design.

You're rambling about how unjust it is that you get treated this way and that you have to fix it.

There's nothing to fix. You had the answer all along.

Or do you think that a plasma gun should be a separate unit because you can buy a box of 10 plasma guns?

I mean, ideally they should be seeing unique and special units for different types of special weapons. The training would be different, as would the role.

But being a Real Guard Player, you should know that.

 Tastyfish wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
From earlier on, it's been noted that regular squads are going to 2 specials and no heavies.

Just Cadian Shock Troops isn't it?

NOPE.

He's said that they are getting their own entry

Correct.

(kind of replacing 'Veterans', so Vets are now represented as surviving Cadian squads adopted by other regiments)

NOPE.

Veterans are just flatout gone.

Additionally:

ust a little bit of information for you

You won't be running pure cadians (of course you could) You will be able to mix and match different regiments into one force.

Your army bonus doesn't care that half is catachan and the other krieg, you'll still get your army rule.

The only benefit in running say a unit of catachan is to use a strat like "vicious traps"

In enemy charge phase spend X cp When a unit is charged and is in terrain, roll a d6 +1 if unit is catachan or guerrillas +1 if unit has a melta mine +1 if sly marbo is on the battlefield

On a 2-5 the enemy unit suffers d3 mortal wounds, on a 6+ the enemy unit suffers 2d3 mortal wounds

See, Haighus is the kind of Guard player I'd have sympathy for. There was no way to know about this down the line way back when.

It's also labelled as Kill Team product first and lets you build a bunch of options that Veterans don't get.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Yes, it's so much more stupid and anti-consumer than--say--having an army that requires almost 3x the price for an initial buy-in as other armies.

Which is because guard require more models than space marines, not because you have special/heavy weapon options. Unless you want to make guard 15ppm elites like space marines they're going to be more expensive.

It's literally because you have special and heavy weapon options that aren't included in the box for your basic troops choice.

The fact that you don't seem to understand or want to acknowledge that is troubling.

You had the answer all along.

And the answer was "an infantry squad can take one heavy and one special weapon". How GW packaged their kits made no difference in any previous edition and "each unit must be made from a single box and each box must make a specific unit" is an idiotic approach to game design.

It's a better approach to game design than "let's keep everything the same forever", which has been the previous approach to Guard.

I mean, ideally they should be seeing unique and special units for different types of special weapons. The training would be different, as would the role.

No, I mean literally a plasma gun. Not a model with a plasma gun, the boxes of 10 plasma/melta/etc weapons that GW sells: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/legiones-astartes-missile-launchers-and-heavy-bolters-2022

Mate, did you actually read what you posted a link to?

Upgrade your MKVI Tactical Squad Legionaries into Tactical Support Squads
Contains 60 special weapons - flamers, meltaguns, plasma guns, rotor cannons, volkite calivers, and volkite chargers
Outfit up to 12 separate squads with guns to suit any situation

Also, frigging lol throwing out a link to the Horus Heresy. Literally a spot where there are entire squads, across multiple factions, devoted to carrying specific weapon types.

Should the Baneblade accessories sprue be a separate unit? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Imperial-Guard-Baneblade-Sponsons-And-Accessories

And at this point it's obvious just how hard you're grasping at straws.

How dare GW sell kits you're expected to combine with other kits to make a complete unit.

So your argument is what? That Guard should get specific weapon sprues, like the Heresy units do?

That'd be nice. It's not the case though. You have to buy a Heavy Weapon Squad box to get a HWT and a Command Squad box to fully outfit a Catachan squad with the Codex options. Cadians are a bit better off since it's just the new-est version of the Cadian Shock Troops box and a HWS box but y'know...that's still making it so you have to buy multiple boxes for a single Troops choice.



ANYWAYS...
Command Squads are our HQ option now.

 Haighus wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:
Krieg's trait is apparently they can only be wounded on a 3+! That feels pretty significant.

That just seems silly. Krieg aren't supposed to be physically tougher, only mentally tougher. They are quite willing to die so long as they do their duty.

Right, which is why they're making it harder to wound them. They're fightin' through the pain.

I feel they would be better served by rules that allow them to fight after being killed in melee and so on- get one past blow in before the Emperor takes 'em vibe.

And what good is that when someone just shoots them off the board?

 AlexiusAxouchos wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:
Krieg's trait is apparently they can only be wounded on a 3+! That feels pretty significant.

OK_Entrepreneur3004 clarified that this is not their regimental trait, but appears on their datasheet instead.

Hey, since you're posting over there now--ask if the field ordnance is Cadian locked or a generic kit!

Ok E had them after CSM and Daemons.

Yeeah...I wouldn't be worrying about what's in the current Cadian kit.