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MoD_Legion wrote: Recycling is largely one of the biggest scams there is, as the price/energy use of just making something new vastly outweighs the cost of trying to recycle
Utter BS. Read less far right (actual scam BTW) drivel, cost of recycling steel/glass/aluminium is literally below 1% of energy you need to make a new thing (and that's just base substance, never mind all the additives industry adds to iron or silicon to make it into modern steel/glass). Rare earths or metals like gold and copper? The cost of making new one can be 10000% higher - and that is without even considering environmental damage wrought by discarded stuff being left to rot in dumps instead of being reused. Who told you this nonsense?
Now, in case of plastic or low quality cardboard or other dirty packaging the Swedish model (burning them in high temperature furnace to save on fossil fuels - note high temperature is needed to break down pollutants, something idiots burning them in small fireplaces producing lots of toxic smoke fail to get) might be currently the best of the bad practices, but it's not the fault of recycling - it's the fault of packaging producers who instead of having pure paper or plastic, glue them together in various ways, slap glossy coatings on top, then dump liters of paint cover, ruining their recycling quality. Once we get to mandate simple, easily recyclable packages, recycling will be the way to go.
There is a reason why people did it literally for thousands of years (literally, artifacts from recycled glass and iron in museums date back to beginnings of writing and agriculture) and it's not because they were wOkE (anyone who says this unironically deserves to be punched to shut them up and told to look up actual data, not fables peddled by deniers of climate change and vaccine smears)...
flaherty wrote: In the States, we have a lot of space to bury waste so the bigger concern is keeping carbon out of the air.
Sure, if you want to contaminate groundwater, soil, and every plant that grows on it. When you read about superfund sites or cancer alleys existing only because someone thought 'hey, our profits would be higher if we buried this waste instead of properly disposing of it making it the problem of next generation' you kinda sour on that gak idea. And that is without extra dose of racism on top of that garbage (namely, cities and counties placing said landfills next to land/dwellings of minorities making them disproportionately exposed to fallout and suffering from the practice)
Dries_Lee wrote: The logistics of returning sprues to GW wouldn't be an issue if GW clipped the models from them in-factory.
GW would save money through lowering the weight of shipments and needing less virgin plastic.
The cost of paying people to clip parts from sprues would vastly outweigh the savings in shipping.
You'd have a machine do it. Given the amazing things machine vision can do, you could probably set it up to clip any sprues apart you like (i.e., you wouldn't need to build a clipping machine specific to each individual sprue). There'd be a large up front cost that might not make economic sense (whatever that means in practice) in terms of upfront cost + maintenance/upgrades vs cost savings in reusing clipped materials+saved transportation weight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/01 20:25:54
How would that make sense? Even if you can't recycle locally, sending them back across the ocean on ships that burn used oil doesn't exactly seem like a net benefit to the environment. This idea is proposed fairly often in various places by well-meaning green types but they're missing the forest for the trees.
Shipping extraneous plastic to consumers around the world who then send it back doesn't make much sense, no.
Maybe people concerned about this topic should petition the UK government to raise the Plastic Packaging Tax instead. https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/plastic-packaging-tax After a brief skim, it seems to me sprues are not exempt from this tax. But £200 per metric tonne of packaging material doesn't seem to make much of an impact to me.
Seems to me most companies don't care about much except shareholder value, and won't clean up their business unless a government makes them. But that government needs to be serious about it, and not pass only token legislation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/02 11:30:10
Dries_Lee wrote: The logistics of returning sprues to GW wouldn't be an issue if GW clipped the models from them in-factory.
GW would save money through lowering the weight of shipments and needing less virgin plastic.
The cost of paying people to clip parts from sprues would vastly outweigh the savings in shipping.
You'd have a machine do it. Given the amazing things machine vision can do, you could probably set it up to clip any sprues apart you like (i.e., you wouldn't need to build a clipping machine specific to each individual sprue). There'd be a large up front cost that might not make economic sense (whatever that means in practice) in terms of upfront cost + maintenance/upgrades vs cost savings in reusing clipped materials+saved transportation weight.
You would first have to build and design a clipping machine, and configure it in such a way that it's precise enough to not butcher the models. I don't think GW is willing to pay that much for a precision machine when they can get the customers to do it for them.
And for what purpose? To send the pieces in a jumbled mess to the customer, who then have to sort out each component and try to figure out what goes where, instead of just looking at the numbers on the sprue? The only way that makes sense is if the models came in a single piece with no assembly required, and I'm not sure anyone wants that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/02 11:48:08
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Dries_Lee wrote: The logistics of returning sprues to GW wouldn't be an issue if GW clipped the models from them in-factory.
GW would save money through lowering the weight of shipments and needing less virgin plastic.
The cost of paying people to clip parts from sprues would vastly outweigh the savings in shipping.
You'd have a machine do it. Given the amazing things machine vision can do, you could probably set it up to clip any sprues apart you like (i.e., you wouldn't need to build a clipping machine specific to each individual sprue). There'd be a large up front cost that might not make economic sense (whatever that means in practice) in terms of upfront cost + maintenance/upgrades vs cost savings in reusing clipped materials+saved transportation weight.
You would first have to build and design a clipping machine, and configure it in such a way that it's precise enough to not butcher the models. I don't think GW is willing to pay that much for a precision machine when they can get the customers to do it for them.
And for what purpose? To send the pieces in a jumbled mess to the customer, who then have to sort out each component and try to figure out what goes where, instead of just looking at the numbers on the sprue? The only way that makes sense is if the models came in a single piece with no assembly required, and I'm not sure anyone wants that.
Don't overthink it....
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Personally I haven't recycled plastic or paper in years. It's not really a thing. That article linked earlier in the thread and a few others over the years have convinced me not to bother. It really should have been something of a scandal imo, but people just want to believe that plastic is recycled so the information is generally ignored. I just stick to metal and glass.
> Shipping extraneous plastic to consumers around the world who then send it back doesn't make much sense, no.
Yeah, that. Even shipping without sending it back consumes resources as well. While I'm not going to give up my hobby, not consuming is better than recycling. Shipping rates have gone up, July 4th travelling increased, and the current American administration is lowering tariffs from China, showing that reducing resource consumption isn't much of a priority for the American consumer.
You would first have to build and design a clipping machine, and configure it in such a way that it's precise enough to not butcher the models. I don't think GW is willing to pay that much for a precision machine when they can get the customers to do it for them.
And for what purpose? To send the pieces in a jumbled mess to the customer, who then have to sort out each component and try to figure out what goes where, instead of just looking at the numbers on the sprue? The only way that makes sense is if the models came in a single piece with no assembly required, and I'm not sure anyone wants that.
I was really just saying that GW wouldn't need to pay someone to sit there and snip sprues apart... it'd be cheaper to have a machine do it. Regardless, precision probably wouldn't be an issue as these machines can be incredibly precise. And, sadly, I doubt the jumbled mess would be an issue because it wouldn't stop folks from buying models (alternatively, you could vacuum seal/shrink wrap the parts onto a bit of cardboard using much less and cheaper plastic than what the sprues are made of). All this said, I don't think you have to worry about GW doing this... I'd guess they don't sell enough models to make up the considerable up front cost of having a bunch of sprue clipping machines special built in whatever they save in reusing clipped sprue material+shipping weigh.
Edit: misread part of your post, I was thinking you were suggesting that the machines wouldn't be precise enough but it seems you're just saying precision is expensive, which I'd agree with heh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/02 19:30:39
I have a filastruder so i looked into the material GW use - unfortunately it is HIPS and gives off toxic fumes when subject to heat.
It could still be workable for someone using ABS main material and HIPS supports (it can be eroded with simple chemicals)
I'd support (ba-dum-tss) them doing a move to a material which could be turned into filament for your own 3d printer, but it would need to be under 240 degrees melt point to be of real use
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
Eh, we'll have access to plastic-digesting microbes for cleanup within the next several decades anyways. Better question is what to make plastic out of as the raw materials dwindle.
well PLA is technically cornstarch, but material degradation is an issue.
We'll probably see more on that project to create hydrocarbons using sunlight that a californian team started a few years back
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
JWBS wrote: Personally I haven't recycled plastic or paper in years. It's not really a thing. That article linked earlier in the thread and a few others over the years have convinced me not to bother. It really should have been something of a scandal imo, but people just want to believe that plastic is recycled so the information is generally ignored. I just stick to metal and glass.
paper, cans and glass do get recycled a lot and reused. Something like 75% off all the aluminum ever mined is still being used due to recycling as all of these are cheap to recycle. Paper becomes cardboard and toilet paper -- they aint using the new stuff for you to whip your butt with.
Plastics is another story and it depends on where you live as some places in Europe and the US are now mandating that companies use recycled plastics which creates a market for it which causes it to be recycled in those areas but it's still a small part of plastics that ever do.
Engineer chiming in here... GW more than a typical manufacturer or even a recycling company is better positioned to recycle their own plastic. GW and model companies in general sell you everything on sprues because its the easiest way to avoid missing pieces from kits, particularly with so many little pieces... but almost every other sort of plastic product has a sprue or cut off of some kind when its manufactured, but it gets removed for subsequent manufacturing steps. Unless the manufacturer is producing something with more extreme strength or color requirements, they will then take those cut offs and sprues, grind them up and either sell the granulated plastic to another manufacturer or simply blend it into their stock of virgin plastic materials and use it in future batches of plastic parts. As long as GW ensures its only collecting its own plastic runners for recycling the only other thing they need to worry about is if people have coated the plastic with paint or oils... otherwise they can still reprocess and reuse the plastic. They'd want a progressive buoyancy sifter, which could be calibrated such that only their plastic that's free of contaminates can float all the way through the series of tanks.
That said, shipping the material whether to a recycler or back to their own facility for reprocessing is always going to be the potentially cost and environmentally prohibitive aspects.
You "Recycle" your own sprues by clipping them down to manageable bits and putting them in a plastic tote. THEN you have them on hand for your projects, or whatever you want to do with them. It is not about sending them back to GW to reuse. If I may be so bold, THAT particular plastic that GW uses will cost more to send back through the supply chain, break down in massive industrial heating arrays (I/E the production process) and reheated and recast through the molds. (we call it processing)
As to that nonsense about "Carbon footprints", that is all it is, nonsense. It goes along with that same point made about "heating the water to wash the mug" is bupkas. YOU are made of carbon... Carbon is a building block of life, it goes without saying that the stand/ idea is ridiculous, and it is only propagated by the "Green Industry" for one reason, and one reason only. $$$ Cash.
As to proof...
A briefing, on "Recycling" from Someone Who I Know. ( i cut it short, honestly.)
Someone I know used to work in a particular industry that worked in this exact same realm. Exact same mindset, Exact same good idea fairies, Exact same proposition/ idea.
"We can recycle the ...items... in country, thereby reducing the "carbon footprint", waste, and costs associated with The Item.
At the time, Someone I know... was pumped full of that nonsense about recycle the bottles, and we would be saving the unicorns and butterflies, as well as Uncle Sam's cold hard cash spent on the supply chain of the bottled water.
In the end- Same issues... "Who's going to collect the bottles, Who's going to run the machines, Who's going to send them back out, etc.etc.etc..."
In the end- You Doubled to nearly Tripled the chain, because of course you need contracts, and funding to carry the water for these nonsensical ideas. And along with expanding the chain of supply recycle, then you need specialized people to fix it, and billing, and call centers, and etc, etc,etc. as you throw more money around, and everyone gets in on the grift.
I could fill easily three or four pages on the grift, too. THIS is not just the water bottle I am talking about. It goes from the boot on your foot, to the plane that you fly, it all goes through a lifecycle that meddling kids always want to put their hand into the machine of progress and try to "Fix".
FOR GW- The answer is simple, even if they have a bunch of lame minds in suits not seeing the answer.
You, as the customer, save your sprues, because you can use them, "and save the green", as you make all of these wonderful new pieces of terrain, THAT we show you, along with the GW patented plans vehicles, as you participate in the HHHobby...
Get yourself a good 4X4 plastic box, as you clip up your sprues, and then you fill it with the sprue material.
You have a bits box for the extra bits, Then it goes without saying that you have a sprue box for the sprues, as well as another for the card stock from the packaging, that you use in conjunction with the bits and sprues to make all of the nifty terrain that you ad to your wonderful tabletop HHHobby battlefield.
In the end, We as consumers have the choices. You can use the sprues for something else, Ego "Recycling", or you can throw them at the ducks.
It's on you what to do with them, and I will tell you from a LEARNED and EXPERIENCED supply chain professional that you take that stuff, use it for other uses, and stockpile it. You will never get a satisfactory answer from a bureaucracy, I don't care who you are.
A time is coming where you are going to be able to break that stuff down for use to make stuff in your 3D printer. When that happens, GW will THEN come for your children, and fight you for "Their" patented, and claimed licensed "GW SPRUE" material.
Economy wise- If you were so concerned about the environment, you wouldn't even have dreamed in a million years to use Plastic miniatures as a choice. You would have fought GW tooth and nail for the tried and true TIN/ Pewter mix figures from back in the day for the more expensive versions of metal figures...
As a side note, Ze Germans have been recycling petrochemicals for years. Squeezing it out in high pressure vats and separation methods.
In the end, don't get distracted.
Plastics were pushed on you by the very same jagoff's that are now telling you that your ham sandwich is killing the earth, and that your even breathing is affecting the "Carbon Footprint".
The only "Carbon Footprint" I am interested in is the one I stain one of these Commie asses with, as they preach out of one side of their mouth about how much you and your coke bottle are destroying the fishie's, while they run around in their Tesla's, and drink Latte's from Starbucks. While at the same time, collecting a check, and grifting as they bounce around the globe with the WEF in their private 747's and their entourage in the three other planes behind them.
Thus Endith the Lesson.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
aka_mythos wrote: Engineer chiming in here... GW more than a typical manufacturer or even a recycling company is better positioned to recycle their own plastic. GW and model companies in general sell you everything on sprues because its the easiest way to avoid missing pieces from kits, particularly with so many little pieces... but almost every other sort of plastic product has a sprue or cut off of some kind when its manufactured, but it gets removed for subsequent manufacturing steps. Unless the manufacturer is producing something with more extreme strength or color requirements, they will then take those cut offs and sprues, grind them up and either sell the granulated plastic to another manufacturer or simply blend it into their stock of virgin plastic materials and use it in future batches of plastic parts. As long as GW ensures its only collecting its own plastic runners for recycling the only other thing they need to worry about is if people have coated the plastic with paint or oils... otherwise they can still reprocess and reuse the plastic. They'd want a progressive buoyancy sifter, which could be calibrated such that only their plastic that's free of contaminates can float all the way through the series of tanks.
That said, shipping the material whether to a recycler or back to their own facility for reprocessing is always going to be the potentially cost and environmentally prohibitive aspects.
Sprues and runners that are removed at the factory on many products are a lot simpler than those on model kits and/or designed in a way they can be snapped away easily. Often on stuff things that are simpler shapes or can be made from better flowing plastics, the sprues can be reduced or even done away with entirely (many plastic products you'll find an injection point on them with no extraneous sprue marks). On model kits, you might have 100 or more attachment points on a single frame that need to be carefully cut.
It also usually doesn't matter if the sprues are clipped off poorly on most products, which means it can be done quickly and carelessly at the factory. Imagine getting a box with 5 models, 10 components each, all with 3 attachment points that have been brutally clipped off in a way that requires filler on each one, 150 points to fill and smooth over just to build 5 models, that sounds like fun
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/08/05 12:23:50
(alternatively, you could vacuum seal/shrink wrap the parts onto a bit of cardboard using much less and cheaper plastic than what the sprues are made of).
That would be even worse for the environment though. Sprues at least can be reused by the customer. That "cheaper" plastic would be discarded and end up in some turtle's throat, and it would be cheaper for GW, not for us. The best ecological approach would be to encourage people to reuse their sprues, not give GW ideas to raise prices and make themselves look like saints for just using sweat shop labour (which would be the cheaper and most logical alternative for a company to use than a fancy machine) and dumping sheets of cheap plastic in the ocean.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/08/07 18:03:49
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/10 16:46:37
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
Methinks you've been at the koolaid a bit too much...
That's all you got?
Try and read what I wrote and actually try to come up with something marginally snarky next time, before you make a douche out of yourself again just trying to insult me for no other reason.
Sure thing my man. I've got a doctorate in atmospheric sciences. I say this not to claim I'm better than you (doing that sort of thing is stupid), but just to show that I know what I'm talking about. Climate change is real. The observations support it. The theory supports it. Global warming is a specific aspect of climate change, we didn't change the name to cover something up. Carbon footprints are a way of understanding the impacts of actions on the global climate budget, not a scam. Exxon launched a specific effort to undermine the efforts to combat climate change by pushing climate denial arguments in an organized manner into the public zeitgeist to convince the public and Congress to abandon anything that might cut into their business.
The main contributors to climate change are companies who like to point the finger and push delays in the spirit of "protecting the economy" for short term profits. Since they won't do anything meaningful, we, the individuals, must work to lower our individual carbon footprints where we can. Do we (as individuals) need to drop everything that produces greenhouse gas, not at this point. Should you substitute in lower carbon footprint things when you are capable and the opportunity presents itself? Absolutely! I've heard enough of people peddling disinformation. I did read what you wrote. You've been at the corporate koolaid too much whether you realize it or not. Better?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/08/07 22:04:41
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/10 16:47:01
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
& 
~4100
~1660
was pumped full of that nonsense about recycle the bottles, and we would be saving the unicorns and butterflies, as well as Uncle Sam's cold hard cash spent on the supply chain of the bottled water.
