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To be fair, it's nowhere near intuitive and expect it to be played wrong a lot.

If you use the traktor kannon, and you hit, does the devastating wound proc if you hit a fly keyword model with a +2 because of its anti fly+2?

Or do you still have to do a wound roll of 6 to do the mortal wounds?

Beardedragon wrote:
If you use the traktor kannon, and you hit, does the devastating wound proc if you hit a fly keyword model with a +2 because of its anti fly+2?

Or do you still have to do a wound roll of 6 to do the mortal wounds?

Anti X means you score a crit on a wound roll of X, so Traktor Kannons proc MWs on flyers on a 2+ wound roll

So thats why there is a hype around that Mek Gun.

interesting indeed.

The enemy does not get to do a save roll when i do my mortal wounds, do they?

Beardedragon wrote:
So thats why there is a hype around that Mek Gun.

interesting indeed.

The enemy does not get to do a save roll when i do my mortal wounds, do they?

Yep. I am going to have my game too, on the nobz i think warboss is the way, claws+-1w both best worlds.

Running boyz with painbo too, want to see how durable, if it is, i expect it to be my distraction carnifex lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, mek gun is not that great against necron from the looks. On the other hand tau/grey knight would suffer

I am considering if defkotas will be our go too rockets 115pts for 2 and 1 kbm + a mek

shogun wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Some people have been down on Nobz and pro MANz camp,............

What say you, Dakka?
I think both are - surprisingly - a valid choice depending on what you want to do.

I think orks struggle with anti-tank options when facing knights or Astra parking lot. Too early to tell how this works out in the game but a lot of weapons only wound on a 5+ against vehicles and that's not enough.
Mek guns could be the best option for this but in close combat you might want to pack twin kill saws. That Strength 12 with reroll wound really makes the different.

The real power unit in this anti tank scenario is squighog riders + nob on smasha squig + headwoppa for 315 points.

Here's the numbers on waaagh turn for 3 similarly costed units on charge against a land raider:

Riders + nob + HWKC, 315 points = 14.16 damage
Meganobz w/ dual killsawz + megamek, 300 points = 13.48 damage
Nobz + Warboss, 300 points = 12.72 damage

Okay, let's go through the math:

This is a unit of maganobz with 2 killsaws and a megamek on waaagh turn.




For point of comparison, a unit of Nobz with a warboss:

So anyway, on waaagh turn, you would do very slightly more damage with meganobz with mega big mek with twin saws compared to the nobz + warboss, 13.48 versus 12.72 damage.

Those numbers would probably favor the meganobz and be slightly cheaper with the warboss in the meganobz unit. But my concern is that your damage output would go through the poop chute after waaagh, and against all targets, since you drop down to 2 base attacks.

By comparison, Mozrog would score 6.88 wounds against a Land Raider in a turn he charged, or 8.54 wounds on a waagh turn in which he charged.

Mozrog


6 Squighog riders + nob on smasha squig + headwoppa's killchoppa on waaagh:
14.16 damage against landraider.

No transport cost, faster, can assault out of waaagh without worrying about the no-assault ramp rule. Similar durability to Meganobz with similar wound count. Cheaper than running the Meganobz with a transport. Can't assault in ruins, but you're talking about gearing for anti-tank.

People are losing their minds on Reddit because I referred to the battlewagon upgrades as "free"

Bizarrely, for once Dakka seems to be the only place on the internet looking at the positives of the new book rather than just wailing and gnashing their teeth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:
Can't assault in ruins, but you're talking about gearing for anti-tank.

Looking through the core rules, I can't see anything that would prevent charging into ruins. Could you elaborate for my pea-brain please?

:EDIT:

Nevermind, found it. It would have been more helpful if they had a bullet point summary of what each model type keyword did, as searching "mounted" did not get me anywhere while looking for this.

The way the rule is worded suggests to me that everything can go on the ground floor, and only beasts, infantry and flyers can go on the upper floors. Not necessarily that only beasts infantry and flyers can go in the ruin.

All other models can only be set up or end a move on the ground floor of this terrain feature.

You forgot to add the 2 free bomb squigs to the squigriders which makes them even better…
But the no negative charge modifiers and beastboss on squig reroll charge makes thier threat range reliable and good.
Only issue with squig riders is durability.
T7 w3 4+ 5+++
That’s not going to keep ‘em alive first turn as they try to run across the board.. got to try to use that cover.

Something else that's interesting after digging into the Beastboss in a unit of Beastsnaggs.

On the turn you charge, the Beastchoppa is far and away the better anti-tank unit due to devastating wounds.
Best part is he doesn't need the HWKC. This is against any vehicle target, regardless of toughness/armour save.

Assuming Waaagh + charge + beastsnagga reroll:

.96*.5*8.16*2
7.83 devastating wounds

versus Beastklaw:
.96*.5*5.83*2
5.6 devastating wounds

Honestly, I think Beastsnaggas + a beastboss in each unit, for this reason, is probably a better generalist infantry block than boyz. Painbosses are just flat out stupid and a waste of points, and I don't know why they exist. If you want to punch tanks and monsters, a few 11 man blocks with a beastboss in each unit is probably an interesting MSU.

Side note, I don't see anything in the Warboss "Da Biggest and Da Best" rule that says it adds 4 attacks to the exclusion of the extra attack from waaagh itself, meaning he should get 9 PK attacks, + sustained hits, or 10.5 PK attacks on Waaagh turn, which is kind of a lot. Is there any reason we can't just take a Warboss + Boyz, or a Warbozz + Nobz MSU in each transport? Both the Warboss and the Beastboss seem to hit a lot harder on Waaagh turn, than the units they are riding with.

If the only restriction on units is rule of 3, you could conceivably run several beastsnagga 10 man squads with Beastboss and several nob squads with a Warboss, in transports, or not, and try to push them into combat on a synced waaagh. The Beastboss on Squigosaur even gives rerolls on charge within 6".

I think Painboyz are a red herring, at 80 points, if you subtract 23 points for a nob with a Powerklaw statline to be generous, it's basically 57 points, or exactly 1/3 the cost of a 20 man blob of boyz at 170, so what value is this if you get a feel no pain, or exactly 1/3 chance of saving a model? It's almost a wash. Painboss is just useless, since you're only going from the inbuilt 6+ FNP to a 5+ FNP, for 70 points. Even on a 210 man block, you're saving 1/6 a model for 1/3 the cost.

gungo wrote:
You forgot to add the 2 free bomb squigs to the squigriders which makes them even better…
But the no negative charge modifiers and beastboss on squig reroll charge makes thier threat range reliable and good.

You're right, I did!

That's a 2+ for D3 mortal wounds, which is .83*2 on average, or 1.66. With two squigs, that's 3.33 mortal wounds on average, per unit of 6, once a game.

gungo wrote:

Only issue with squig riders is durability.
T7 w3 4+ 5+++
That’s not going to keep ‘em alive first turn as they try to run across the board.. got to try to use that cover.

That's what the 'Ard as Nails strategem is for!

T7 - 1 wound

S4 is wounding on 6's
S5 is wounding on 6's
S6 is wounding on 6's
S7 is wounding on 5's
S8 to S13 is wounding on 4's

Assuming AP2, you still get a 6+/5++, which is a roughly 45% chance to save a wound. 56% chance of a save with AP1. Even if they have +1 AP strat, you still get a 33% chance of a save, which also works against mortal wounds. I feel like that makes their shooting a lot less efficient. I don't know that I believe they're really that squishy if you keep a CP for that strat. This is AFTER they select targets, so you can't possibly waste the strategem. Whatever he wants to kill, you could just say, alright, 'ard as nails then.

Let's just throw a unit of 10 hellblasters into them, assuming they overcharge and remain stationary:

.83*.5*.66*2*10
5.5 wounds
11 damage, or 3 dead squighog riders, or 110 points of losses from a 250 point shooting unit.

That could be kind of rough. Hopefully people aren't paying attention to the fact that Hellblasters hit on 3's with heavy.

Deffkoptas seem like a big win to me.

115pts for 3 fast, fairly tanky buggers with twinlinked rokkits.

i was initially very bumbed by the exclusion of assault ramps on trukks, they even had boarding planks for a possible justification... or heck... do the typical GW thing and punish us by taking mortals on a 1 if we wanna disembark after trukk moved..

but beastsnaggaz + BB, boyz + warboss, nobz + WB or even couple manz + mek or boss in a trukk seems pretty efficient


235 for snaggaz+BB
205 for boyz+WB
235 for 5 nobz+WB
215 for 2 MANz+WBorMek

you could put four or five of em in a 2000pt match and still have enough for rigs, jets, mekguns and the mandatory gretchin unit

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Deffkoptas seem like a big win to me.

115pts for 3 fast, fairly tanky buggers with twinlinked rokkits.

They hit on 5's tho

They could ping maybe 3 wounds off a Rhino a turn on average. Or maybe a dead marine a turn.

I guess they're okay? What would you do with them?

 TedNugent wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Deffkoptas seem like a big win to me.

115pts for 3 fast, fairly tanky buggers with twinlinked rokkits.

They hit on 5's tho

They could ping maybe 3 wounds off a Rhino a turn on average. Or maybe a dead marine a turn.

I guess they're okay? What would you do with them?

Rokkits arent that amazing against vehicles, wounding on 4s against a rhino is sadface.
But, theyre anti elite. Flank with them and try to bully an objective, since they also have 6 S5 attacks in melee.
For 115pts i dont expect a unit to be bonkers powerful, but they are clearly better than a lot of our options in that range.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Deffkoptas seem like a big win to me.

115pts for 3 fast, fairly tanky buggers with twinlinked rokkits.

They hit on 5's tho

They could ping maybe 3 wounds off a Rhino a turn on average. Or maybe a dead marine a turn.

I guess they're okay? What would you do with them?

Rokkits arent that amazing against vehicles, wounding on 4s against a rhino is sadface.
But, theyre anti elite. Flank with them and try to bully an objective, since they also have 6 S5 attacks in melee.
For 115pts i dont expect a unit to be bonkers powerful, but they are clearly better than a lot of our options in that range.

Well, here's an alternative if you want to kill elite infantry.

Flash gitz are 95 for a unit of 5.

Naked, and at BS5, not firing at closest unit:

1.63 dead MEQs

Add Badrukk into a 10 man unit and pop the ammo runt for stupid damage. Even Badrukk into a 5 man unit with an ammo runt can shred.

I'm still running the math, but it's stupid.

Basically, with lethal hits and a reroll alone, you're hitting 6's on roughly 25% of all hit rolls. A unit of 5 targeting closest unit gets 25 shots on average if you add the sustained hits from Badrukk rerolls, and roughly 25% of those shots are lethal hits if you pop the runt. Double that for a ten man unit with Badrukk.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Deffkoptas seem like a big win to me.

115pts for 3 fast, fairly tanky buggers with twinlinked rokkits.

They hit on 5's tho

They could ping maybe 3 wounds off a Rhino a turn on average. Or maybe a dead marine a turn.

I guess they're okay? What would you do with them?

Rokkits arent that amazing against vehicles, wounding on 4s against a rhino is sadface.
But, theyre anti elite. Flank with them and try to bully an objective, since they also have 6 S5 attacks in melee.
For 115pts i dont expect a unit to be bonkers powerful, but they are clearly better than a lot of our options in that range.

Well, here's an alternative if you want to kill elite infantry.

Flash gitz are 95 for a unit of 5.

Naked, and at BS5, not firing at closest unit:

1.63 dead MEQs

Add Badrukk into a 10 man unit and pop the ammo runt for stupid damage. Even Badrukk into a 5 man unit with an ammo runt can shred.

I'm still running the math, but it's stupid.

Basically, with lethal hits and a reroll alone, you're hitting 6's on roughly 25% of all hit rolls. A unit of 5 targeting closest unit gets 25 shots on average if you add the sustained hits from Badrukk rerolls, and roughly 25% of those shots are lethal hits if you pop the runt. Double that for a ten man unit with Badrukk.

Math time! I might not like the look of 10th edition, but I like math.

You're generally better off rerolling only 1-4 and keeping 5s. Each shot does, against MEQ:

1 shot
5/18 hits on a five, 5/18 hits on a six, which is 15/18 or 5/6 wound rolls and 5/18 autowounds
10/18 plus 5/18 wounds, for 15/18 or 5/6
5/12 failed saves, each one killing a MEQ

Or, put another way, one Flashgit kills a MEQ with all that even if they're not the nearest target.

Without Lethal Hits, it drops to 5/18 failed saves, so one Git won't QUITE on average kill a MEQ, unless they're the nearest target.

 TedNugent wrote:

Assuming Waaagh + charge + beastsnagga reroll:

.96*.5*8.16*2
7.83 devastating wounds

versus Beastklaw:
.96*.5*5.83*2
5.6 devastating wounds

Honestly, I think Beastsnaggas + a beastboss in each unit, for this reason, is probably a better generalist infantry block than boyz.

agreed, came to the same conclusion last night. 10 snaggas + beastboss + trukk is almost 100 points cheaper than 6 squigboys and is gonna be able to get the job done just as good.

I see your 5/18 hits on 5 and 5/18 hits on 6 when you include the reroll.

That should be 5/18 getting autowound. -1 AP or 50% chance of unsaved wound.

Then 5/18 regular hits, with 66% to wound, then 50% to save, or 9% unsaved wound.

So obviously the key is the lethal hits + the rerolls. Which unfortunately you only get the lethal hits once per game, and you'd have to be outside of a transport to make use of the abilities from Badrukk + ammo runt, as well as sustained hits.

I was thinking you could put them in a transport with a Mek for the +1 to hit from firing deck, then plop them out where you want and let it rip with the runt. You should even be able to hurt a vehicle just from the lethal hits alone, but it's probably not ideal. You could leave the Mek in a kitted battlewagon with a killcannon after departure to keep its value.

A lot of points, but both units are versatile in close combat as well due to the deffrolla/klaw on the BW and the choppas on the gits with 4 attacks each.

 flaming tadpole wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

Assuming Waaagh + charge + beastsnagga reroll:

.96*.5*8.16*2
7.83 devastating wounds

versus Beastklaw:
.96*.5*5.83*2
5.6 devastating wounds

Honestly, I think Beastsnaggas + a beastboss in each unit, for this reason, is probably a better generalist infantry block than boyz.

agreed, came to the same conclusion last night. 10 snaggas + beastboss + trukk is almost 100 points cheaper than 6 squigboys and is gonna be able to get the job done just as good.

That's math is only against vehicles/monsters, though. I don't know how I feel about them being mechanized since they can't assault from vehicle, you'd have to stand there for a turn after disembarking. The squighogs can just go in with knives out. They're also 18 wounds behind 4+/5++, compared to 10 wounds behind 5+/6++.

Side note:

How bad are Deff Dreads???

Let's find out exactly how bad

Armiger Warglaive 140 points
12" T10 3+/5++ 12W OC8
4A S10 AP3 3D
Deff Dred 150 points
8" T9 2+/6++ 8W OC3
4A S10 AP2 3D
*blows raspberry*

Bomb Squig: Once per battle for each bomb squig this unit
has, after this unit ends a Normal move, you can select one
enemy unit within 12" of it and roll one D6: on a 2+, that
enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.

Do i understand this as i can now throw both squig bombs on a 6man squighog units at the same time?

So, what to transport in a wagon? Here are some options:
Ghaz+makari+2 manz = 300 pts
Warboss+painboy+20 boyz = 320 pts
Mega mek+ 5 manz = 265 pts
Warboss+10 nobody = 300 pts

Ghaz option sounds fun and maybe the only way to actually threaten tougher vehicles. Ghaz alone will deal around 12 wounds to a land raider. But the wagon will have to roll around with just t10. And we want that tasty t12. Another issue is that ghaz can't disembark normally as his base is a bit larger than 3". You will have to rotate the wagon so that his base ends up underneath it a bit which is annoying.

Warboss+painboy+20 boyz is a solid brick that will deal good damage to enemy infantry if there is such. The problem is they fall flat vs any tougher vehicles and monsters and 10 is gonna be all about those if I get it right. Another great thing is enormous objective grabbing potential of this boyz brick. The wagon will be able to roll around with t12.

Mega mek + 5 manz. Why 5? Cause that's how many will be able to fit in if a wagon takes the big boom gun for d6+3 s9 ap2 d2 shots. If you take a wagon and get a mini mek nearby to patch it up and get bs4, than all the gunz suddenly start to add up. 4 big shootas, lobba and a big boom gun will probably kill something. It's not a cheap combo but why not use a wagon at it's fullest potential. I have a kitted up wagon with a boom gun, so I'll probably try this at some point. As for the manz + mega mek, they can shoot a bit. Will maybe kill a marine or two. And they can chop a bit. Once again, will likely kill a couple more. I'm not expecting them to be overly killy but with resurrecting they can be an issue to shift off an objective.

Warboss + 10 nobz is all about killing infantry and light/medium vehicles up to t9, maybe 10 on a waaagh.

How would you fit 2 mega nobz in a battlewagon, when ghaz + makari takes up 19 spots? Ghaz alone takes 18 but that doesnt account for makari, as far as im aware.

Also im fairly sure that i saw in the rules, its explained that bases that are too big to be wholly within 3 inches, (which ghaz has) simply have to disembark within 1 inch of the transport. effectively granting him more than a 3 inch disembark free move. You dont have to pull shinanigans to get him out. This was the rule in 9th as well.

 TedNugent wrote:
I don't know how I feel about them being mechanized since they can't assault from vehicle, you'd have to stand there for a turn after disembarking.

You still act normally if you disembark before the vehicle moves. Turn 1 move 12" + adv. Turn 2 waaagh disembark 3" move 6" + adv gives you 28" on avg which should make it a pretty easy charge.

I really hate this new fething point system. Trying to hit 2000 seems excessively difficult. oh you are 5 points too much? Well lets not take out a bomb squig or what ever, you now have to take out entire units, switch everything around and pray to all your gods that when you put something back together, you are somewhat close to 2000 points.

WHY was customization removed... its way more difficult to put a list together now.

Sigh.. Well. What does your first list look like?

Im not sure im going for something good for my first list, just things i want to try maybe

Mine will be:

2 * Squigboss
1 * painboy + 10 Nobz Klaw + trukk
1 * Beastboss Follow Me Ladz + 20 foot beast boyz ( 1 CP Ere we Go first turn)
10 beast boyz + trukk
2 × 10 grot
3 * Kommandos
3 * 3 Squighog

First game will be versus Iron Hands, not sure... 🤣

Beardedragon wrote:

Well. What does your first list look like?

I'm pretty settled on the list in spoilers until I find out how much a Gargantuan Squiggoth costs



I was originally planning on using Pk Nobz in a trukk and some Flash Gits, but this newer idea needs less modelling effort on my part to bring my old stuff up to par, and is closer to my grand idea of 'Oops, all squigs'

One thing my friend pointed out from an auspex tactics video is that not only can vehicles shoot at other units while in engagement range, but now units outside the combat can shoot at vehicles in engagement range with -1 bs.

Mek boy workshop kombos. Pretty sick…

https://youtu.be/7wSniOaJZrk

Except he deploys in front of his enemy.

How would you ever deploy in front of your enemy? The mek shop has to be deployed in your own deployment zone does it not?

 Tomsug wrote:
Mek boy workshop kombos. Pretty sick…

https://youtu.be/7wSniOaJZrk

I already have a meme list for this I want to try out. 18 Kans fishing for mortal wounds.

 Tomsug wrote:
Mek boy workshop kombos. Pretty sick…

https://youtu.be/7wSniOaJZrk

The ADL used to have that problem as well, so it's unlikely to survive the first FAQ.

And even if they don't, it's not that hard to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either I've reached the point where I got too many orks, or I'm just getting old and my memory gets worse. In any case, I went through my entire collection to check what models I actually have, mostly checking for spannas, meks and runtherds.

My collection has quite a few 'eavy weapon boyz which were drafted to become tank bustaz which are now fresh out of job. At least that's what I thought. With upgrades now being free, I've managed to give all of them new homes in either mobs of boyz, units of kommandoz. For those which did not find a place, I just added boss poles from the lootas of flash gits box which somewhat resemble mek glyphs to have enough spannas for all my lootas and burnas - because rokkits are free on those as well. So despite my unhealthy love for large mobs of tank bustaz, I manage to find a new home for all of them. Maybe this helps someone here with re-arranging their collections as well.

Painboys might be worth it, not useless atleast.

"If an attack with the [PRECISION] ability that can be allocated to a Character model leading an Attached unit can inflict mortal wounds on its target,
the mortal wounds inflicted by that attack are also allocated to that Character model first."
From the Rules Commentary.