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Kaptin Badrukk wrote:'Seem ta me yooz got yerself a humie problem 'ere. Don't look good, yooz keep gettin' beat by such weedy li'l gitz, does it? But don't worry 'coz da Kaptin iz gunna sort it fer ya. Fer a price, o' course. We'll start wiv dat big shiny wagon yooz been ridin' about in, an' we'll go from dere, eh?"

I know, us orks don't like rules, but a couple of things should be said before starting:
- Tactics means trying to win the game with kunnin'. I know there are a lot of players who just want to toss some dice, watch their beautiful converted models, re-enact battles from the fluff and don't really care about who wins the game. I'm sure you are having great fun in your games, but your strategies might not work for someone facing optimized armies.
- It's safe to assume that the vast majority of games will be using the newest FAQs, points, matched play and data slates. Please don't base tactics on not using the most recent rule set.
- If you are looking for crusade advice, specifically say so. Unless stated otherwise it is assumed that current matched play mission pack is used to play.
- Keep in mind that not everybody has access to forgeworld models or rules.
- Legend rules aren't allowed everywhere.
- Be clear about whether you are discussing army composition (looking for the best options), or whether you simply want to use a unit in an efficient way, even if it's not the best choice.
- Clarify whether you are discussing regular Matched Play or Tournament rules where it matters.
- There are communities and tournaments that do not allow certain things. The people looking for advice here cannot change that, so accept that they have to work around those limitations.
- Do not discuss GW's business practices in this thread.
- Do not discuss the number of releases other armies get in this thread. Especially not beakies.
- This thread is about 10th edition, if you do not like or even play 10th edition, that's a perfectly fine, but it's off topic for this thread.
- It is fine to agree to disagree.
- Back up your arguments.
- Provide links to blogs/videos/podcasts you are referencing
- If you need help with list-building, provide us with a list of models you have available
- Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya
- Lists not in spoilers are to be responded with a krumpin of the poster
- Orks never lose.
- WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!


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I just noticed you can have units of 2 MANz.

So Thrakka can ride a BW with Makari and a unit of two MANz.

I've not yet decided whether that is genius or stupid

From the rules commentary:

"A repositioned unit counts as having made a Normal move in the
phase in which it is set back up."

So SJD actually CAN shoot after tunneling. Awesome!

Beardedragon wrote:

Forceride wrote:
the funny detail is upgrades are free lol

yes at first glace i was like: This gak is expensive. But its not really more expensive (not necessarily at least..)

Personally i dont like that its already dictated that you almost SHOULD take all the wargear options, simply to not "waste" your points. Also if im not mistaken, you cant take 7 nobz, you have to take 5 or 10. well you can but you still pay for them (i think).

At least I know what I'll be doing with all the extra tank bustas I have. They'll go back to join the boyz they used to share a sprue with

Free rokkits without heavy restrictions are something I have wished for ever since starting orks.

Like you wanna use a battlewagon to transport infantry, as many as you can, but if you dont take the kill kannon, you are paying 180 points for a wagon and waste points. so its a weird rule.

If you already intend to take all the weapons upgrades, you probably arent paying more than what you have to.

I have played PL crusade for most of 9th, free upgrades really doesn't have any positive or negative effect, you just have less barebone units running around.

I guess it's just a fancy slugga now.

Special shoota combined the big shoota and the kustom shoota into one profile.

On the upside, I just need a burna boy, a retired tankbusta and two big shoota boyz to properly equip my kitbashed kommando squad.

Orktai wrote:
Just a little heads-up. The mortal wounds of the painboy are hitting his target first:

" If an attack with the [PRECISION] ability that can
be allocated to a Character model leading an Attached unit can
inflict mortal wounds on its target, the mortal wounds inflicted by
that attack are also allocated to that Character model first."

Quite fun to think of him as an assassin now!

The attack does not cause mortal wounds, it's a separate ability. Therefore, no precision on the d6 mortal wounds.

To be fair, it's nowhere near intuitive and expect it to be played wrong a lot.

 Tomsug wrote:
Mek boy workshop kombos. Pretty sick…

https://youtu.be/7wSniOaJZrk

The ADL used to have that problem as well, so it's unlikely to survive the first FAQ.

And even if they don't, it's not that hard to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either I've reached the point where I got too many orks, or I'm just getting old and my memory gets worse. In any case, I went through my entire collection to check what models I actually have, mostly checking for spannas, meks and runtherds.

My collection has quite a few 'eavy weapon boyz which were drafted to become tank bustaz which are now fresh out of job. At least that's what I thought. With upgrades now being free, I've managed to give all of them new homes in either mobs of boyz, units of kommandoz. For those which did not find a place, I just added boss poles from the lootas of flash gits box which somewhat resemble mek glyphs to have enough spannas for all my lootas and burnas - because rokkits are free on those as well. So despite my unhealthy love for large mobs of tank bustaz, I manage to find a new home for all of them. Maybe this helps someone here with re-arranging their collections as well.

Tarp wrote:
Painboys might be worth it, not useless atleast.

"If an attack with the [PRECISION] ability that can be allocated to a Character model leading an Attached unit can inflict mortal wounds on its target,
the mortal wounds inflicted by that attack are also allocated to that Character model first."
From the Rules Commentary.

As above, the precision attack is not causing any mortal wounds, the ability is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:
Except he deploys in front of his enemy.

How would you ever deploy in front of your enemy? The mek shop has to be deployed in your own deployment zone does it not?

Correct. Fortifications are just normal units without a movement speed and some extra cover rules now.

tneva82 wrote:
Otoh attacks have profile and abilities. No profile actually causes mw's.

Wrong.

Every mw comes from ability. Devastating wound? Ability. Only difference is usr vs datasheet ability.

One of the most dumb things you have posted so far in this edition, twice so because the Rules Commentary explicitly states the opposite to be true.
Might as well claim that the powerklaw also has precision, because the only difference is them is that his rules are written on a different line.
The "only difference" is that one deals mortal wounds as part of the attack sequence while the other does not.

If ability caused mw isn't enough then no attack cause mw for precision to allocate.

If you can't be arsed to quote the free online rules, don't bother posting at all.

Rules Commentary wrote:If an attack with the [PRECISION] ability that can
be allocated to a Character model leading an Attached unit can
inflict mortal wounds on its target, the mortal wounds inflicted by
that attack are also allocated to that Character model first.

Precision cares about which weapon profile you use. If a weapon has both precision and devastating wounds, the attack is allocated to a character due to precision and if it is a critical wound that weapon causes mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends.

"Hold Still and Say ‘Aargh!" is just a datasheet ability causing mortal wounds, exactly like bomb squigs, deff from above or nose drill. There is no attack to be allocated, the mortal wounds are not done as part of the 'urty syringe attack sequence and it does not replace the regular damage. And therefore, no precision ability.
In order for this rule to be affected by precision, it would have to be a weapon rule, just like "Snagged" on the rigs or "Bubblechukka" on the mek gunz.

RAW is very clear on this, but the intention might have been another. Or not, because someone was afraid of pain boyz making space marine captains explode.

TL;DR: Both the RAW and the "defensive" interpretation do not support precision mortal wounds from pain boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:
The organization of ork index is a pure nightmare.

Yes... reminds of those times at work when I was explicitly told to reduce the usability of free features that are in competition with premium features.

Within the week we will have someone who recut the PDF and added an index.

 Tomsug wrote:
- skip the fortification, broken and will be faqed

No way. I'm planning to deploy it dead center (as intended) as part of my vehicle list and plan on having the morkanaut double-dip on repairs in turn 2.

I just now noticed warbikers went down to max 6 per units. Holy crap!

My condolences to the speed freeks among you who had multiple full mobs of them before, GW did you dirty.

 Tomsug wrote:
That is the smallest issue. Warbikers were masacred to the dust. Their shooting is down to half, their move down from 20” to 15,5”, no -1 to hit. Same price. What have they done to my boyz?

Sorry, but that is not true. Dakka guns used to be just 2x dakka 5/3 which meant that you could never shoot them when advancing.

Now dakka guns are 3 shots rapidfire 2 (so same as in 9th), but gained assault and twin-linked and 1 point of AP if you are within rapid fire range which you want to be anyways.
So, in fact, they moved up from 14" movement to 15.5" and are at least somewhat equivalent in shooting - in a context where all comparable units have lost power.

As for exhaust cloud - they got +1 to toughness and a 6++ instead, which is a perfectly fine replacement.

I have no issues with complaints, but do your homework first by at least checking the datasheets of 9th and 10th against each other.

Boosykes wrote:
What are your thoughts on the deffkilla wartrike with the bikes? I love the model.

Looks like a trap IMO. The +1 to hit really doesn't anything for the unit, and getting 3 more bikers or any of the other buggies seems like a better investment in most cases.
Neither the PK nor the melta or the flamer look particularly worthwhile.

That said, I'm going to be running it on Sunday

 Vineheart01 wrote:
am i missing something, or are we seriously lacking in the anti-big thing department?

The index is covered in S7-9 attacks with at least 1 ap, but im seeing very very little anti-vehicle or S12+ attacks even in melee.

I almost feel like im forced to use Squighogs, since they look pretty good at dealing with vehicles this go around.

The thing you are most likely missing is that this is the same for everyone now. Wounding vehicles on 5s is just how the game works now, kind of like you had to roll a 5+ to penetrate AV12 back when that was a thing.

Dedicated anti-tank is usually expensive and has a low number of attacks, making it inefficient against pretty much all other targets. Most armies, despite having such guns, still have to wear down vehicles with lethal hits, +1 wound effects and high damage, high AP weapons.

 Grimskul wrote:

Spoiler:

This is my preliminary 1500 point list for my first game of 10th ed this weekend:

10th edition Ork Index List:

Warboss with Power Klaw and Kombi-Weapon - 70
Enhancement: Follow Me Ladz!

Mad Dok Grotsnik - 75

Warboss with Power Klaw and Kombi-Weapon - 70

Nob with WAAAGH! Banner - 70

20 boyz - 170
- Nob with PK
- 2 x Rokkit Launchas

20 Boyz - 170
- Nob with PK
- 2 x Rokkit Launchas

5 Meganobz with Twin Killsaws - 165

Mega Armour Warboss - 95

Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun - 75

3 Mek Gunz - 135
- Kustom Mega Kannons

Kaptin Badrukk - 95

10 Flash Gitz - 190
- Ammo Runt

Trukk - 50
- Wrecking Ball

10 Gretchin + 1 Runtherd - 45

The plan is to attach one unit of boyz with a Warboss and Grotsnik, and the other unit of boyz with a Warboss and the Nob with WAAAGH! Banner, they're my core units that will be fighting for the scrum of the middle of the board objectives.

Kaptin Badrukk and his Flash Gitz go into Strategic Reserve so they can blast a unit the turn they come on and ideally are set up in a central location so they can stay still for better accuracy.

The Meganobz unit is meant to be a reserve threat to be held behind cover against anti-tank threats.

Gretchin are to farm and guard my home objective while the SAG Big Mek and Mek Gunz provide backfield fire support.

I'm mainly wondering if I should change my Follow Me Ladz enhancement to the Killchoppa instead and if Painboyz/Mad Dok is better or if the WAAAGH! Banner is more beneficial. Would love to hear what feedback you guys have.

I'm surprised to see Grotznik here. I mentally put him into garbage tier already, what is your reason for picking him over a weird boy or a kff mek?

Sure, but FNP is 75 points for saving the equivalent of 85 points worth of boyz, assuming no multi-damage wounds involved. Fallback and charge isn't that attractive to me.

The KFF mek in comparison adds damage to the shootas in the back and the free rokkits we now get, while also providing two(!) turns of 4++ against shooting.

That's my opinion, anyways. I might totally be wrong, so I'm absolutely open to other opinions.

 Tomsug wrote:
Just an idea

Why though? It's not like most of those characters are particularly good on their own...

If you want to go full stompy I'd rather go for something like this:

 koooaei wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
In terms of our anti heavy vehicle offense, I've taken the time to compile a list of all of our vaguely viable options (S10 or higher, devastating wounds, lethal hits, twin linked, etc).

If you actually calculate our unit efficiency, you quickly find out that we have very weak anti-tank for killing t10+ stuff. Let alone t12. If you calculate something like mek gunz vs eldar wraithknight... That's 1k+ pts of mek gunz all shooting at a knight to kill it. Just forget about it. Focus on scoring and killing weaker units off.

Are there armies which do not have this problem?

 Tomsug wrote:
Are the 20 boyz mobs a trap or not with the new engagement rule?

Boyz are vehicles for characters. If you don't want any of the leaders (Warboss and Weirdboy being the big ones here), you don't want boyz.

If you do want one of the leaders, I'd go with a 10/10 split between shootas and choppas, putting shootas (and rokkits) in the back and removing them first when you take casualties.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
We're in dire need of all the anti M/V offense we can get, so I think the Snaggas with Boss take it here as a good "allcomers" choice, with PK Nobs with Warboss being the close runner up.

Is it? I just had one game so far, but it felt like warbosses and nobz hit like a wet noodle, barely able to scratch the paint on durable models.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
We're in dire need of all the anti M/V offense we can get, so I think the Snaggas with Boss take it here as a good "allcomers" choice, with PK Nobs with Warboss being the close runner up.

Is it? I just had one game so far, but it felt like warbosses and nobz hit like a wet noodle, barely able to scratch the paint on durable models.

What did you send the Nobs in against if you don't mind me asking?

The initial charge (with Waaagh! support) was against MANz that popped 'ard as nails, later I tried to pick of two surviving killa kanz. In both cases they just bounced off their charge target without any significant damage.

I feel like Nobs have had a bit of a shake up in target priorities. They're obviously not nearly as good as they once were against tanks and big monsters, but they're good against heavy infantry (dropping off at Terminator equivalent level), at least on paper.

Probably. Despite the similarity to 9th, it's a completely new game.

 PaddyMick wrote:
I'm looking to build a list but leave out all beast snagga units, as they don't fit my theme. Already got loads of kommandos and stormboys, grots, boys and trukks; was thinking got to get flash gitz with badruk, and got the models to make burna boyz and meganobz... anything i'm missing?

Maybe you should check if you have all the leaders you need. Outside, looks good.

Any of the speeed waaargh stuff essential?

IMO this heavily depends on the warboss on warbike's rules and maybe nob bikers. What I see now looks like a bunch of puzzle pieces of an incomplete picture.

Are deff dredds too expensive and will they die before they get into combat?

I feel like this is a target saturation thing. In an infantry list it will draw fire from actual anti-tank guns like lascannons and railguns, but when there are squigs, vehicles and MANz around it could work well, especially if you mange to make heroic intervention work.

Should I take Nobz?

You should

 PaddyMick wrote:
Thanks Jidmah. I was wondering also how to kill land raiders and big tough stuff at range, but the answer could be mek guns. Or don't try and just charge a spare trukk into them and leave it at that. I'm going to give the Morkanaut a try also.

No matter how I do the math, it seems like killing tanks is just not worth it unless you have nothing else to kill.

Which makes me wonder how to approach knights outside of throwing my squiggoth at them.

 Tomsug wrote:
Big Trakk rules confuse me. It is not just a “hahaha they wrote a Killkanon instead of Supakannon” issue.

There is a model of Suppa Kannon this model can be equiped. It Is/was for sale.

There is absolutely no model of Kanon you can put it on. Yeah, great idea to kitbash something (kanons for free!) but this goes directly againts GW policy “rules just for stuff we have for sale”.

And the “supakannon” profila is obviously a Killkanon profile.

No, if there is new model on the way, GW realease the promo about the models first and rules later.

This is very much FUBAR datasheet.
The right version is just the Supakannon rules from squighog with zero or halfed transport capacity. This makes sence regarding the available plastic/resin for sale.

Fun fact - the squiggoth model originally wasn't meant to go with the supa cannon, but with a different one that is also out of print now.

The supa-kannon was last chance to buy a couple of months ago, so it's not surprising to see it disappear just like the lifta-droppa before.

By the time 11th rolls around I expect FW to be completely gone outside of titan-sized models. In essence, the last articles said as much anyways.

 Tomsug wrote:
Speaking about Kannonwagon…. Big Trakk with real Supa Kanon like gargsquig has… for 75p? Shut up and take my money!

Seem like the perfect datasheet for looted russes.

 TedNugent wrote:
I don't know if I see the appeal of nob bikers, knowing that squighogs exist.

They're somehow more expensive.

IMO GW made squig hogs to fill in the role nob bikers used to have, just like the squigboss and wartrike take the roles of warboss on warbiker and wazzdakka repectively.

Let's hope that enough marine players buy the new terminators and sternguard so GW keeps giving us actual replacement for aged units instead continuing with approach of creating replacements instead of upgrades.

I got some games of 10th in now, here are my thoughts:

- This is not a boyz' edition. They are more durable than before thanks to 5+ armor and near omni-present cover, but everyone else got more durable as well making choppas mediocre at best and shootas worse. I haven't tried the weirdboy yet, but for other leaders it feels like a lot of effort and points invested just to then obliterated by units with a bunch of d3 blast weapons.
- Nobz are awesome, what a time to be playing orks. With their permanent 'ard as nails they are surprisingly durable and with the +1 to hit buff from the warboss they can reliably threaten even vehicles. It took 3 klaws and 2 big choppas for a bit of extra anti-horde capability, I didn't regret it.
- We need to change our perception of the warboss. He can no longer solo-kill tanks, monsters or heavy infantry, but he is extremely efficient at killing pretty much everything else.
- I feel like the killchoppa ist wasted on a warboss, it probably should be reserved for beastsnagga characters for killing monsters.
- Follow me ladz' is my new favorite enhancement. Having a warboss and nobz move 8"+d6 and charge during a Waaagh! to sprint out from cover onto an objective and murder everyone there is great. Throw in 'ere we go and watch them run faster than actual nob bikers
- To my own surprise warbikers lead by a wartrike didn't suck. Despite their +1 to hit in melee, they just barely managed to kill units of GEQ with leader, but their shooting is the real deal. I popped overwatch on them whenever I could, and especially the AP-2 flamer on the wartrike did gork's work. The extra speed allowed me to keep them out of sight and range of dangerous guns, and the wartrike's big base allows for some funky engagement range shenanigans with just the trike touching the enemy and the bikes all touching the wartrike like leaves. This allowed all of them to fight even in bottleneck situations.
- In general, getting most of your unit to bear is much easier than I though it would be, except for large mobs of boyz I never had more than one or two model in the fight that would have been in engagement range in 9th.
- Squighog riders are great. Super durable, and all those attacks that make nob on smasha squig feel like overkill. Anything they touched just died, and any attempts to harm them were foiled by 'ard as nails, often reducing the attacker to wounding on sixes. Bomb squigs are just the icing on the cake, and my favorite application of them is blowing up lone operatives. Very much felt like running 5th edition nob bikers again.
- Beastboss on Squigosaur, well... all my opponents were terrified of him which led to him dying before he could touch anything every single game. He always did die close to the end of a shooting phase though, once he even lasted till turn 2. I guess having your opponent skip their first shooting phase for 165 points isn't terrible.
- Scrapjet wasn't bad, though I wonder why the big shoota was reduced to 18"... might as well scratched it off completely. The 2+d6 rokkits is nice though and I actually managed to kill a vehicle with it. It then died to actual anti-tank guns as if it were paper. So not bad, but not good either. I did not get to use the nose drill.
- Kanz were great. No, I'm being serious. During your shooting phase, three rokkits hitting on 4+ with blast and ignore cover did a lot better than I though it would. However, there is more - using them to shoot overwatch at units of 10 or more is suprisingly effective, plus they are good targets for heroic intervention - having three additional muder-bots in combat throws off the math for pretty much any combat.
- Big Mek with MA and KFF is super expensive, but also super durable. I'm not sure what the right number of MANz is though. 3 seems like enough in most cases, except when you roll bad or your opponent has hot dice and kills all 3 in one turn. 5 feels like overdoing it, and it's not like they will suddenly start killing stuff they couldn't before because they have three additional models.
- I though burna boys would be the new hot thing with overwatch essentially doubling their shooting. It's not. Without AP, S4 simply doesn't gut it.
- I love that the KMB is 3 shots flat now. They are genuinely good guns now.
- Kombi-shootas are super bad and should never, ever be taken instead of an alternative, including slugga and choppa.
- Koptas aren't as good as they seem? They have gone back to their original role as flanking unit which takes pot-shots, but can't really kill anything on their own. The bomb is nice, but very situational and almost always leads to their death immediately afterwards. Like most of the speed freeks it feels like they are waiting for a dedicated detachment that makes them click together into a viable army.
- Gretchin are mandatory, at least one unit per army. Even the basic stratagems like overwatch, grenades, heroic intervention or epic challenge can decide a game if used in the right situation. With stratagems that powerful you are hard-pressed to justify spending those 45-90 points elsewhere.
- 'ard as nails is by far the best stratagem orks have had so far. I use it almost every turn and rarely regret it.

 Grimskul wrote:
Definitely agree with your assessment of boyz sadly. I tried decking them out with Warbosses and Painboyz/WAAAGH! banners and while they can feel tanky against certain units, they still melt under dedicated fire (especially blast weapons) and there's a lot more precision weapons than I remember there being, it doesn't actually take that much to kill your defensive characters which then exposes your unit to be even more vulnerable to shooting.

When playing against GSC and marines with eliminators I just popped 'ard as nails every time their sniper units tried to snipe one of my characters. This makes most sniper rifles wound on 5s or 6s, usually dragging out the inevitable long enough to get value out of my leaders.

Any thoughts on Beast Snagga Boyz? I'm 50/50 on having using 10 man squads of them since it feels like they have more indepedence than boyz units and are better suited for Trukks.

My thoughts on beast snagga boyz is that I dread building the five units of them which make up the only pile of shame that I have. I really hated building kommandoz, and their bits seem to be arranged in a similarly chaotic manner.

In 9th I proxied my 'ard boyz as snaggas, in 10th I haven't played them yet. My experience with choppa boyz is mixed, beastsnaggas might be good enough, but they might also not be.

My current plan is finishing my flash gits and a second SJD. I've seen necron murder-balls played on the table next to me, and I absolutely want to be able to snipe characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Is the general consensus for using Nobz a unit of 10 in a Trukk with Warboss?

I don't see any advantage of using a truck over getting Follow Me, using 'ere we go or putting them into stratagic reserves. In addition, I'd rather use two units of 5 with a warboss each than one unit of 10. There also are precious few problems that 20 PK attacks can't solve, but are magically solved adding another 15 attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Combining my experiences with what I've read here, my planned list looks something like this:

With as much crying about towering as there currently is all over the competitive scene, I doubt knights will remain a problem for long. In any case, Mozrog seems like a decent response to them.

I third the notion of green tide being dead. Boyz are nothing but ablative wounds for characters, without much killing power outside of that. Flooding the board with units that are unable to threaten anything armored is not going to end in your favor.
10th has taken multiple measures that a single weapon profile will never be effective against all possible targets, and that includes the PK and the choppa. You can no longer crush elite infantry or vehicles with weight of attacks and tank can neither be tarpitted nor seriously damaged even if you should get most of your models in fighting range.

Spamming boyz is as dead as it can be. If you want to run an all-infantry list you need to bring different units to cover all your bases, otherwise you eventually will be stuck with your scissors fighting rocks.

In general, this is a good thing. Green tide being viable has always been a symptom of badly written ork codices, because it essentially declares that every other unit in the codex is worse than boyz.