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 Irbis wrote:
[And funnily enough, without pesky gravity, autogun would be just as accurate as laser in zero G.

Depends on your rate of fire, as recoil is probably going to be an issue with autoguns.

Single shot? Sure, no issues there. Semi-auto? The recoil will start to come into play, though probably still be minor. Full-auto? Serious accuracy problems.

Meanwhile, a lasgun's "recoil" should only be the "flinching" that happens each time the user pulls the trigger (which is something that can be mostly trained out of the user).

IIRC the reason the Navy uses solid projectile weapons is to reduce damage to the interior of their ships during boarding actions. Hence their preference for shotguns and autoguns(presumably loaded with explicitly non-armor penetrating ammo)


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 Irbis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think that in-universe Autoguns can on a per-shot basis be stronger than lasguns, and this is why they haven't disappeared. However the reliability of lasgun technology and the freeing up of your logistics makes it a better choice for the Imperium. Its just as easy to teach someone to use a lasgun as an autogun, but the lasgun doesn't need ammo constantly shipped to it. You just need charging stations to be provided, and the power packs can also be charged via solar/thermal exposure in a pinch.

See, that 'just' is what kills the whole thing. You need a whole nuclear/fusion plant to charge these. Or maybe some sort of mobile, military generating guzzling tons of oil or promethium or whatever it runs on, which needs to be shipped too. Either lots of heavy, advanced infrastructure, or supplies to still make it run. Autogun bullets, in comparison? That's medieval tech, sure, low tech bullets will be far worse than what we can make now, and definitely inferior to future stuff, but you can resupply on even the most backward of worlds. If it has beginnings of industrial age, it can make bullets, you don't need atomic/space age infrastructure to do it.

Well yeah, you'd need to ship fuel to keep the generators running. But this is going to be far more space efficient than shipping bullets. And fuel is something you are shipping anyway. The IG is going to be using tons of generators for other purposes, just add a few more for the ammo replenishment. But again even in a worst case scenario, lasgun packs can be recharged just by letting them sit in the sun or near/in a fire.

But again those are why autoguns have not entirely disappeared. They have some advantages compared to lasguns for more primitive areas, and some elite forces prefer them for reasons.

Its a nuanced and fairly realistic view. Certainly far more realistic than say Star War's justification for why solid projectile weapons are rare/almost non-existent.

 Flinty wrote:
Munitorum manual page 62 states that laspistols operate strictly on a single shot basis. However I agree that the galaxy is a big place, so local variants probably exist that are tolerated with auto fire available.

Thanks for that!

Well, at the very least it suggests that autopistols have a distinct advantage over typical Imperial Guard laspistols if automatic fire is warranted, as autopistols definitely have automatic fire (as per Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer). MDG therefore has a well-supported point that this is different to autoguns vs lasguns.

I think I need to dig through the Siege of Vraks part 1. I think that includes a discussion about autoguns somewhere.

I still maintain that stub weapons are worse than autoweapons (as per thread topic). Stub rifles are a thing and are definitely just worse autoguns.

Edit: Vraks does have some insights. The model of autogun featured (Agripinaa pattern, type III) has a much higher rate of fire of ~600 rounds/minute than the M-G Galaxy pattern lasgun in the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer with ~220 shots/minute. It does point out the autogun is heavier, less reliable, and less versatile, but of comparable efficacy as a weapon. The full auto fire is not very controllable due to an 8.25mm cartridge! My thoughts are probably that the autogun is typically better at close range and closing into melee due to the high fire rate, but a worse weapon if engaging at longer ranges.

Edit2: to clarify further, I think lasguns are better in general, but autoguns probably have a niche where they are better in Zones Mortalis envinronments where immediate raw short-ranged firepower is more beneficial. That would tally well with the Imperial Navy preference for autoweapons (including autoguns- the Navy security in book 1 of the Eisenhorn trilogy uses autoguns).


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Yikes, Vraks 2 has more info. The autogun featured there (Agripinaa pattern type II) weighs 6.2kg! That is reaching into support-weapon weights.

Meaty weapon.

Yeah it was written, I believe, in one of the Eisenhorn book and again in the description of the naval handgun posted by someone else here. I must confess that I didn't like those books but it's still official lore material and they were described like this

 godardc wrote:

The doesn't pierce the walls thing is an odd one. No infantry small arms except maybe a meltagun can hope to pierce the walls of a warship, so it shouldn't matter for that. It could have an impact on small void craft like lighters and other transports.

Perhaps they are being overly cautious, but just because a weapon couldn't penetrate the exterior doesn't mean it couldn't do so from the inside. And its not just a big hole you'd be worried about. Even if a shot doesn't punch through, if it bends the wall just enough to bring it out of alignment you could break the seal it has between it and the void.

Las weaponry also would be heating the ship wherever it impacts, potentially jeopardizing the structural integrity of the vessel and just heating the vessel up(a big problem in space). Not necessarily an issue just once or twice, but over centuries of operation a vessel that sees a lot of boarding actions could see problems crop up in relevant areas.

Perhaps it is these small risks which have caused the navy to build up a tradition of avoiding these weapons and nobody really knows why anymore, they just do it.

I don't know how the literal transitioning of a human child into a bio-engineered killing machine like an Assassin doesn't make it into the top 10? Just on Morality sake, that's on the "Are we still the good guys?" scale...

 godardc wrote:

Spoiler:

 Haighus wrote:
I agree lasguns are really good weapons, and have some key logistic advantages at an operational and strategic level (but not tactical). However, I think they are being oversold vs autoguns here.

Sure, there are crappy autoguns used by cultists and gangs, but their are also high-end weapons available. Plausible reasons beyond simply combat efficacy have been given for Sororitas novitiates, but what about the Imperial Navy? A powerful institution on par with the Imperial Guard and also supplied by the Departmento Munitorum chooses to equip its elite infantry with autoweapons:


Why not a laspistol instead of an autopistol? Aside from the logistical considerations (which matter less fighting onboard or from a warship and have very little bearing on tactical combat) the effectively recoilless lasweapons should be better in low grav environments. There is also a greater chance of fighting in void environments, where there are no atmospheric effects to impede the laser. So why do they choose autoweapons for this clearly well-equipped elite unit? Obviously autoweapons have advantages over lasweapons in this context that are not outweighed by the logistical advantages of lasguns. I think the general implication is that autoguns can deliver greater effect on target than lasguns, although not to a degree that they are different at the level of granularity of 40k. There is also richochets to consider, which may be both an advantage and disadvantage in a ship's corridor.


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 godardc wrote:
[spoiler]

 Haighus wrote:
From a lore perspective, I inagine being assigned a demo charge is considered a pretty rough deal for all but the most gung ho or dedicated Guard troopers. They are very destructive but also highly likely to be a suicide weapon given the short range and large blast radius. As an extension to this, some penal legion troopers are used as suicide bombers.

JNAProductions wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Lasguns are shockingly good, yet just about every other weapon in the game is better than them. I can't think of one rifle in the game that is worse than a Lasgun.

There used to be Flechette Blasters, which were S2. They were also five shots and Shred (7th Edition-what Twin-Linked is now) so against anything T5 or down, they performed vastly better than a Lasgun, but as soon as you hit T6, you can't hurt them at all.

Also Splinter Rifles are worse if they're targeting a model that's T2-5 and is NOT Infantry.

Grot blasters come to mind. There are also Auxilia rifles from 30k.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Lore Wise I’m genuinely struggling here. And that’s because so many weapons are seen as cack because of their rules.

I’d have to say Autoguns are probably the worst, in-universe weapon.

Whilst still deadly, they introduce a bunch of logistical and maintenance issues its closest equivalent, the Lasgun, just entirely does away with.

Your ammo is heavier, and you get fewer shots per reload. And because it has more Worky Bits, they require a greater level of maintenance - though that doesn’t necessarily mean real world maintenance regimes, due to space magic and by no means directly analogous construction materials.

But if you can lay your hands on a Lasgun, why the flip would you want an Autogun?

Stubgubs are typically cruder than autoguns IMO.

Also, autoguns clearly have some advantages over lasguns because a few well-supplied factions use them instead of lasguns. Most notably, the fabulously wealthy Ecclesiarchy equips novitiates with autoguns. The Imperial Navy also typically equips auto weapons instead of las weapons. Why? It isn't clear, but they must have some advantages that outweigh the logistics advantages of lasguns for these factions.

[/spoiler]

There could be advantages like different ammo (armor piercing, dum dum, etc). The Navy uses shotguns in order not to damage the ships as it doesn't pierce the walls etc
For the Ministorum, it may be for religious reasons or the fact that they aren't allowed men at arms and thus not real military weapons ? Interesting point indeed

The doesn't pierce the walls thing is an odd one. No infantry small arms except maybe a meltagun can hope to pierce the walls of a warship, so it shouldn't matter for that. It could have an impact on small void craft like lighters and other transports.

Lasguns are not really known for their penetration either though.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't know how the literal transitioning of a human child into a bio-engineered killing machine like an Assassin doesn't make it into the top 10? Just on Morality sake, that's on the "Are we still the good guys?" scale...

Probably because we appeared to collectively considered the question under the angle of literal guns, plus about their technical/tactical efficiency in the lore.

But if we also add in weaponised stuff/people, I push necron flayed ones into this list, as they come in without being ushered in, are an absolute disgrace, and can't even have the decency of using firearms. Well, although they compensate with the fact that they literally could kill people from the heart attack of seeing them even before striking. Still unpredictable and disgusting like that.