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The issue with "Industrial folks go to war," is that the Genestealer Cults have already done that.

The amount of armies that are just different colour schemes of power armour should suggest there's no issue with having recurring themes.

IMO they should go down the votann aesthetic of ornate ancestor heads and carvings on more things for the higher spec stuff rather than just hitech.


They should look like reverred walking monuments to the votann and their culture rather than just relatively generic space amour with some runes.


IMO the iron kin would have looked so much more interesting if they were built with sculpted visages and bodies, like walking dwarf golems with stylised faces etc.

The viking-baroque style would help make them look more interesting.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
What about termite mecha suits that are an ironkin with a kin inside them, combining them into a drill punching dreadnought squad they burrows under the enemy?

I'll pass on Headmaster Transformer Votann, if that's OK?

What if he connects with other Votann and powers up becoming Voltrann?

Someone needs to put a Land Train and a version of Raiden in front of the design team, and it can become a whole sub-theme

 Hellebore wrote:
The amount of armies that are just different colour schemes of power armour should suggest there's no issue with having recurring themes.

IMO they should go down the votann aesthetic of ornate ancestor heads and carvings on more things for the higher spec stuff rather than just hitech.


They should look like reverred walking monuments to the votann and their culture rather than just relatively generic space amour with some runes.


IMO the iron kin would have looked so much more interesting if they were built with sculpted visages and bodies, like walking dwarf golems with stylised faces etc.

The viking-baroque style would help make them look more interesting.

I a m really glad they did not do that. I am also glad they're not old school squats. I think the aesthetics they chose are excellent. Granted, I have some small gripes, but those are more about the execution.

I have never liked any dwarf archetype before, but I do like the Leagues. I think their practical DAOT stuff is a breath of fresh air to overly stuffy and stagnant 40K. That being said, this probably means a lot of people who like classic dwarf stuff might not find them that appealing.

I think game-wise they have not really found their groove though, and I am not quite sure what they should do about it. 40K has so many factions that is hard to introduce new unique playstyles. But they need more units though, that is obvious. And like some have already said, they should do more with the ironkin. They're a cool concept, but game wise they might as well not exist. They're just couple of hanger on assistants or models that mechanically do not differ from living squats in any way. So I think expanding ironkin would be an obvious way to emphasise the lore and fill the unit roster at the same time.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The issue with "Industrial folks go to war," is that the Genestealer Cults have already done that.

They're only "the same" if you reduce both their styles and theming to an absurd level that misses pretty much everything.

 Crimson wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
The amount of armies that are just different colour schemes of power armour should suggest there's no issue with having recurring themes.

IMO they should go down the votann aesthetic of ornate ancestor heads and carvings on more things for the higher spec stuff rather than just hitech.


They should look like reverred walking monuments to the votann and their culture rather than just relatively generic space amour with some runes.


IMO the iron kin would have looked so much more interesting if they were built with sculpted visages and bodies, like walking dwarf golems with stylised faces etc.

The viking-baroque style would help make them look more interesting.

I have never liked any dwarf archetype before, but I do like the Leagues. I think their practical DAOT stuff is a breath of fresh air to overly stuffy and stagnant 40K. That being said, this probably means a lot of people who like classic dwarf stuff might not like them that appealing.

This is the sort of thing that shows the issues with the Votann; Space Dwarfs who don't appeal very well to those who like Space Dwarfs but instead to those who don't want that. It somewhat defeats the point of having them in the first place.

Genestealer Cults are the miners and industrial workers from a developed world who have gone to war.
They have rag-tag equipment, repurposed items, some military hardware here and there, mutation everywhere and such

Leagues are more the prospectors and early miners who are going to war as they expand. They are organised, formal and whilst they might be wearing a duster and carry shotgun shells on their hip they have that more successful prospecting township approach.
Their equipment is more exploratory/rugged/advanced and designed for a purpose rather than repurposed and cobbled together.

Aesthetically, Votan are giving Star Craft human vibes with a dash of viking on top. (Mostly in their naming conventions.)

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Aesthetically, Votan are giving Star Craft human vibes with a dash of viking on top. (Mostly in their naming conventions.)

You're right - they do look like Terran Marines from Starcraft... bubble helmets and all.

Yep I think I said the same somewhere back above too - but yes they carry a very similar vibe to them. That rough frontier western element to them.


Very different to Genestealer Cults.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
This is the sort of thing that shows the issues with the Votann; Space Dwarfs who don't appeal very well to those who like Space Dwarfs but instead to those who don't want that. It somewhat defeats the point of having them in the first place.

The same could be said about a lot of armies this edition. Both looks and game play wise. The GK stuff for example, is old and is going to stay old (which per se isn't bad, as long as you don't use power armoured dudes), but their game play has nothing of the knight paladins fighting demons feel. Ton of people hate how modern marines look and feel. But that is more of a 10th ed problem, how terrain and missions are structured, you need infiltrators, uppy downy units, 13-14 units , even for marine/elite armies etc. Makes all armies feel very the same, with the differential being how broken they are. Both ways too. Some armies play the same lists as everyone else, but they are broken (bad), while others feel as if they had 2500pts and one extra rule on each unit. And esthethics in something that has a clear winner and loser, can only carry a faction to a certain degree. Now if Votan, were not Votan, but "Dwarfs in Space" the community would not be much larger, but it would be very resilient to GW rules changes. But Votan are one of those armies that had OP rules (nerfed pre codex release), odd esthethics and are suppose to appeal to a group of God only knows who. Well guess not everyone can be Cathay.

The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.

 Quixote wrote:
The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.

Beyond our Galaxy? That's an unfathomable amount of distance to travel. The Silent King didn't even get anywhere before he had to turn back and that took more millennia than humanity has been around in. The only things out there are Tyranids and even they take an insane amount of time to travel that distance.

Explorers yes but you can't just hop to another galaxy

 Overread wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.

Beyond our Galaxy? That's an unfathomable amount of distance to travel. The Silent King didn't even get anywhere before he had to turn back and that took more millennia than humanity has been around in. The only things out there are Tyranids and even they take an insane amount of time to travel that distance.

Explorers yes but you can't just hop to another galaxy

There are bits in the fluff that talk about people traveling outside our galaxy. In the beginning of the HH series (before book 4) there are Tech-Priests talking about Golden Age humans traveling to other galaxies.

The Space Marine Chapter, The Carcharodons, have their home fleet based in the void above the Galactic plane

From the 5th edition Space Wolves codex:

THE LOST COMPANY OF SVENGAR THE RED

Sailing through a wyrmhole in search of his lost Primarch, SVENGAR the Red finds himself and his men transported far beyond the rim of the galaxy, past even the Ghost Stars. The void is empty as a heretic’s soul. Svengar’s men begin to talk of whispered voices in the night, promising them safe haven. Unsure of his coordinates, Svengar presses on. Days pass into months. On the cusp of turning back, a dark planet is glimpsed in the distance. The Space Wolves head towards the distant orb, expecting trouble. Instead they find a civilisation of tall, fair people who live in opulent luxury of their own making, far from the war and confusion of the galactic core. Relieved to have found a base of operations, Svengar and his men begin to relax and enjoy themselves, feasting and recounting tales of their deeds to the fair people of the far-flung world. It is only when Svengar makes a casual pass at one of their women that the Space Wolves realise their hosts are not people at all. Though they fight bravely, Svengar and his men are never seen or heard from again.

Then you have this tidbit that's been floating around the net for 20 years:

Millennia ago, a probe was sent out from Terra. Its mission was to reach the utmost limits of the universe. The Techpriests who built it hoped that one day it would arrive back to its place of origin having circumnavigated the universe, or in other words, skirted the edge of reality. This probe is still sending back signals after fourteen thousand years adrift. The signals are faint and the probe is not yet on its way back, if it ever will come back. To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who constantly monitor the incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be this: that wherever they go, the Orks will always be with them.

I'm sure there's more.

But the Votann could easily be DAoT explorers. I think it would've made a better backstory for them beyond miners and traders of the galactic core.

I'd just like the lore as it stands to be more present on the tabletop. "We are information and resource gathering instruments to an ancient computer system that's breaking down" is quite different to "that's a grudging."

Aesthetically I think they also try and straddle too much.
Dwarves in Spaaace
Power Armour into Tau Armour
"NASA-Punk"
DAOT (not convinced this appears aesthetically, more just in naming conventions.)
Leather Coat-wearing rugged survivalists/ preppers.

The problem I feel is almost every unit takes these themes in a different proportion to the rest. Unless you like all of them equally, you are probably going to have quite a divergent idea on which models you like from the range.

 Quixote wrote:

Millennia ago, a probe was sent out from Terra. Its mission was to reach the utmost limits of the universe. The Techpriests who built it hoped that one day it would arrive back to its place of origin having circumnavigated the universe, or in other words, skirted the edge of reality. This probe is still sending back signals after fourteen thousand years adrift. The signals are faint and the probe is not yet on its way back, if it ever will come back. To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who constantly monitor the incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be this: that wherever they go, the Orks will always be with them.

Or the probe crash-landed on an ork world generations ago and just keeps sending back signals getting weaker and weaker as its power-reserves drain. Or as an ork has fun poking fun at them by messing with the probe



That said there's a big difference between a few months of travel outside the Galactic Rim or such and actually hitting another Galaxy. So yes 100% having elements far above the general region of the Milky Way makes sense - however actually going beyond to another Galaxy is basically an impossibility outside of perhaps a "happened once and no one is 100% sure it happened" kind of story. The distances are just insanely vast to another Galaxy

 Quixote wrote:
The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.

 Quixote wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
The Votann vehicles look like explorers. If they had made their fluff that they were engineered to go beyond our galaxy or into places no mortal dared to tread, I think the army would work better than they do right now.

Beyond our Galaxy? That's an unfathomable amount of distance to travel. The Silent King didn't even get anywhere before he had to turn back and that took more millennia than humanity has been around in. The only things out there are Tyranids and even they take an insane amount of time to travel that distance.

Explorers yes but you can't just hop to another galaxy

But the Votann could easily be DAoT explorers. I think it would've made a better backstory for them beyond miners and traders of the galactic core.

...but that is their lore? They're implied to be heavily linked to the Men of Stone and the Men of Iron. They're a DAOT tool sent out by humanity to gather and explore, still carrying out their programming 20,000 years later alongside their AI overseers, and have been adapted to survive in the most hostile area of the galaxy where they've been all along.

They're not just miners and traders who happen to be in the galactic core. They're the last true remnants of the DAOT, manufactured mining/resource gathering/exploration drones who were abandoned/forgetten but have been carrying on as if it made no difference because they might not even realize (or care) what they really are.

Tyel wrote:
I'd just like the lore as it stands to be more present on the tabletop. "We are information and resource gathering instruments to an ancient computer system that's breaking down" is quite different to "that's a grudging."

Aesthetically I think they also try and straddle too much.
Dwarves in Spaaace
Power Armour into Tau Armour
"NASA-Punk"
DAOT (not convinced this appears aesthetically, more just in naming conventions.)
Leather Coat-wearing rugged survivalists/ preppers.

The problem I feel is almost every unit takes these themes in a different proportion to the rest. Unless you like all of them equally, you are probably going to have quite a divergent idea on which models you like from the range.

That's because different units of theirs are meant to represent different roles in their society, who have their own identities and styles.

According to WD 503, pg. 72:

The earliest origins of the Kin lie aboard voidfaring mining vessels... Thus, Kin society has formed a rigid survivalist culture, one bent towards resolute toil and the acquisition of resources. This attitude has led other species to view the Kin as driven by greed alone.

Pg. 77:

They also note that the Kin were a clone species from the beginning, that the Ironkin have been with them since those earliest days and that they set out as resource gatherers to prospect for, mine and harvest the riches of the galactic void.

 Quixote wrote:
According to WD 503, pg. 72:

The earliest origins of the Kin lie aboard voidfaring mining vessels... Thus, Kin society has formed a rigid survivalist culture, one bent towards resolute toil and the acquisition of resources. This attitude has led other species to view the Kin as driven by greed alone.

Pg. 77:

They also note that the Kin were a clone species from the beginning, that the Ironkin have been with them since those earliest days and that they set out as resource gatherers to prospect for, mine and harvest the riches of the galactic void.

I'm not sure what you're trying to show by quoting those?

That they have always been miners.

 Quixote wrote:
That they have always been miners.

I still don't know what you're trying to say?

The origins of the Kin are the DAOT colonization fleets sent out across the galaxy. The "first ancestors" were sent out in generation ships, and at some point the Kin were created, an engineered species of clones designed to survive in the most hostile area to the galaxy. The "first ancestors" vanished, leaving just the Kin and the Votann cores. It's implied with all of that there's some connection to the Men of Gold and Men of Stone.

They're mining, colonization, resource gathering and exploration drones from the DAOT.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
That they have always been miners.

I still don't know what you're trying to say?

The origins of the Kin are the DAOT colonization fleets sent out across the galaxy. The "first ancestors" were sent out in generation ships, and at some point the Kin were created, an engineered species of clones designed to survive in the most hostile area to the galaxy. The "first ancestors" vanished, leaving just the Kin and the Votann cores. It's implied with all of that there's some connection to the Men of Gold and Men of Stone.

They're mining, colonization, resource gathering and exploration drones from the DAOT.

Everything I've read is that they were created to be miners sent to the galactic core, nowhere else.

I've seen them attached to references to to pre-Imperial Generational Ships. But those ships (as they were apart of the Long March) ending up as what we now know as Knight Houses... and those Ships were pointed away towards the galactic rim.

The army is likely to get a bit more diversity of play once the dex drops- so far I think every dex has provided at least 4 detachments. Sure, they USUALLY lean into specific subgroups of units, but you're likely to find something you find more reflective of the elements of their lore that most appeal to your personal tastes.

I think I mentioned this already, but their Crusade content very clearly defines them as miners/ salvagers/ resource gatherers. It has been available via White Dwarf since very early in the edition, and according to the Goons, it's pretty much an update from the content in their 9th dex.

With all that said, range expansion is always good, and I'd like to see additional units for the army. I haven't bought in- I can't afford to start a new army, and I'm neither painting or playing as much as I should be.

 Quixote wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
That they have always been miners.

I still don't know what you're trying to say?

The origins of the Kin are the DAOT colonization fleets sent out across the galaxy. The "first ancestors" were sent out in generation ships, and at some point the Kin were created, an engineered species of clones designed to survive in the most hostile area to the galaxy. The "first ancestors" vanished, leaving just the Kin and the Votann cores. It's implied with all of that there's some connection to the Men of Gold and Men of Stone.

They're mining, colonization, resource gathering and exploration drones from the DAOT.

Everything I've read is that they were created to be miners sent to the galactic core, nowhere else.

I've seen them attached to references to to pre-Imperial Generational Ships. But those ships (as they were apart of the Long March) ending up as what we now know as Knight Houses... and those Ships were pointed away towards the galactic rim.

They weren't sent beyond the galaxy. But you also said "or places no mortal dared to tread".

The Kin were engineered to explore and mine and colonize areas in the galactic core, the most hostile area of the galaxy that's filled with all manner of absurd, terrifying things and hazardous cosmic phenomena, with everything from black holes, to planets with esoteric and unique gravity, radiation etc, to hungry, sentient nebula. It's a part of the galaxy others can barely venture in, let alone survive.

Their theming is the last remnants of the DAOT, representing what the Imperium could have been with a faction of worker drones who have been left on for 20,000 years too long, still carrying out their original purpose alongside their now malfunctioning almost supernaturally powerful AI overseers. They're a society of craftsmen, miners and explorers, as a tool that's a holdover from the DAOT.

The only issue I have is the AI cores. They feel like a forced retcon.

The Long March ships were sent with Martian Tech Priests and no AI anything. [M16 - Human Exodus] We know this because a lot of them landed and set up Knight Worlds or Forge Worlds, like Ryza.

It seems odd that the same groups at the same time, were sending AI ships into the galactic core.

 Quixote wrote:
The only issue I have is the AI cores. They feel like a forced retcon.

The Long March ships were sent with Martian Tech Priests and no AI anything. [M16 - Human Exodus] We know this because a lot of them landed and set up Knight Worlds or Forge Worlds, like Ryza.

It seems odd that the same groups at the same time, were sending AI ships into the galactic core.

Where is that from specifically? Regardless, that some ships were sent like that doesn't mean every single ship sent during the 10,000 years or so of the DAOT was also like that.

The lore we have had for decades on the Men of Gold/Stone/Iron is that humanity sent out the Men of Stone to colonize the stars, before eventually figuring out how to send ordinary humans alongside them. The Leagues of Votann are a reference to that lore, with their codex having a whole section heavily hinting to the mysterious origin of the Kin and connecting them back to an entity called "Votann", who may be a person or a group or not even organic, and is known by names such as "stonemind" or depicted a golden entity; hints of the Men of Gold and the Men of Stone.

I think they're a great addition to 40K as the natural-rivals to the Eldar. While Squats feel like a part of the Imperium, Votann are their own thing.

My only criticism of their introduction was not having rules to use one in Blackstone Fortress. A Grimnyr, with their two CORVs, would have been an excellent choice as a lone explorer...

The Burning of Prospero talks about the Long March, where mankind left the solar system on generational ships that used sublight engines.

The Long March ships are what gave us the Knight Worlds and the Forge Worlds.

The Long March is also mentioned in all the Imperial Knights Codecies... and gives the M16 date for when humanity left our solar system for the stars.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The Burning of Prospero talks about the Long March, where mankind left the solar system on generational ships that used sublight engines.

The Long March ships are what gave us the Knight Worlds and the Forge Worlds.

The Long March is also mentioned in all the Imperial Knights Codecies... and gives the M16 date for when humanity left our solar system for the stars.

And now the Leagues of Votann lore has expanded on this a bit further, although not to any clear degree as it's all vague and mysterious.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The Burning of Prospero talks about the Long March, where mankind left the solar system on generational ships that used sublight engines.

The Long March ships are what gave us the Knight Worlds and the Forge Worlds.

The Long March is also mentioned in all the Imperial Knights Codecies... and gives the M16 date for when humanity left our solar system for the stars.

And now the Leagues of Votann lore has expanded on this a bit further, although not to any clear degree as it's all vague and mysterious.

The issue is the AI component, the Tech Priests of Mars were a vital component of the Long March in setting up new settlements and Forgeworlds.

I Know that all this happened before the Long Night, but the Martian Priesthood has always been anti-AI, and it feels shoehorned to me to say that some of the Long March ships had extensive Artificial Intelligences.

I'm fine with the Kin being Clones and being sent into the core, it's just that the AI doesn't seem to fit in the timeline.

Now, if they had found the AI in the core-that would be an interesting twist that I would feel works better.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
The Burning of Prospero talks about the Long March, where mankind left the solar system on generational ships that used sublight engines.

The Long March ships are what gave us the Knight Worlds and the Forge Worlds.

The Long March is also mentioned in all the Imperial Knights Codecies... and gives the M16 date for when humanity left our solar system for the stars.

And now the Leagues of Votann lore has expanded on this a bit further, although not to any clear degree as it's all vague and mysterious.

The issue is the AI component, the Tech Priests of Mars were a vital component of the Long March in setting up new settlements and Forgeworlds.

I Know that all this happened before the Long Night, but the Martian Priesthood has always been anti-AI, and it feels shoehorned to me to say that some of the Long March ships had extensive Artificial Intelligences.

I'm fine with the Kin being Clones and being sent into the core, it's just that the AI doesn't seem to fit in the timeline.

Now, if they had found the AI in the core-that would be an interesting twist that I would feel works better.

Citation on the bolded bit?

I was under the impression that the Imperium, Mars included, were overusing AI to the point of when it revolted, they had serious issues.