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 kirotheavenger wrote:
As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

I think competent leadership has become a fantasy we can all get behind these days.

It's not just Calgar, I detest ALL Ultramarines. Nothing pissed me off more as a Crimson Fists player than having someone see my army and say "Oh, you play Ultramarines." It's been happening since 2nd Edition when the Ultramarines suddenly became the posterchild for vanilla Marines.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I also find Calgar's lore a little too Gary Stu. I remember back in Vigilus where the author really wanted us to know that the only reason Calgar was losing his duel with Abaddon was because that was the plan and he was *letting* Abaddon win. Also in the recent SM2 video game one of the central points of Captain Titus is that he's unnaturally resistant to the warp and that creates a tonne of suspicion upon him. In the final climax Titus is barely able to just about resist the warp forces uses against him. Calgar meanwhile? Calgar just strolls through casually gunning everything down through sheer awesomeness. It's just... uh.

...and then it turns out that the whole plot of the game was for a Sorcerer to trap Calgar! Titus was 'just there'.

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

Hm. See, I could get behind that if that was the direction they leaned into more. But the UM stories I've read usually have their organizational stuff as either a bit of set dressing, a really roundabout way of saying, "And then they did the standard stuff, but extra well," or an outright detriment as they actively punish people for creative problem solving.

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

Hm. See, I could get behind that if that was the direction they leaned into more. But the UM stories I've read usually have their organizational stuff as either a bit of set dressing, a really roundabout way of saying, "And then they did the standard stuff, but extra well," or an outright detriment as they actively punish people for creative problem solving.

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

Honestly this is more or less the reason why people will say they like the old lore more, and that GWs lore now has some serious comic-book-heroification problems.

In the 2nd ed Codex, when I had my first army (Ultramarines), Calgar's big claim to fame was . . . nothing really explicit. He commanded the defense of Ultramar against Hive Fleet Behemoth. He commanded like a commander should. I think there's a story where he holds the line against some Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

Also in the 2nd ed book it highlights that the Ultramarines are efficient logisticians, portraying a habit with conquered worlds of ensuring defenses were in place, establishing trade routes and leaving advisors to make sure things go smoothly. It mentions that the region of Ultramar is so "prosperous and efficient" it always has several hundred regiments of PDF/Guard ready to go. Even to my 15 year old brain that all sounded like they were being . . . sensible.

Karol wrote:
Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse. Mechanicaly, I 100% understand the hate. Calgar gets 3 models in a short span of time and a WS player can't even get a bike for their main dude, which is still better then the Crimson Fist guy who can't even get a model for his main dude. And the just convert argument doesn't work in a world of "no model, no rules". Am not even playing regular marines, and we still get backlash nerfs, because of marines (had our purgators destroyed as a unit for a whole edition, because of Ultramarines) . For regular marines it is even worde. Here is one subfaction with crazy model/rule support, OP too and each time GW decides to nerf your regular dudes, dreadnoughts etc you can get angry. You get more angry when GW starts to balance the whole faction around "well you have Calgar/Gulliman". Not so fun if you play Salamanders or even worse a homebrew chapter. Rules based hate I perfectly get.

Heck my psychic phase and psychic stuff is gone, because Tau have no psykers.

I'm less bothered by Calgar getting the models - especially with the change to the game plan vis-a-vis Terminators/Gravis than I am Njall not getting the models. They've both been Power or Terminator armor swaps. But that went away for Njall. I think its going away for Calgar too. Which is kind of sad. I like that they had swaps. I wish they all had Swaps. Lysander could flip back and forth between Terminator and Stern?-guard. Shrike between Terminator and Vanguard, and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
[Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

I think you're thinking of Tycho from the Blood Angels? Something about him holding some breach, getting buried under the rubble just as the black rage hit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
You mean like the time Ragnar Blackmane and Ghaz killed each other then both came back to life? Or the time Guilliman and Johnson came back to life. . .

I never paid much attention to the lore about named characters in general, and definitely since around 3rd or 4th edition or so. I heard there was a comic book for Calgar. I know little about it and I'm probably happier for it.

Back in my day we had Characters like Captain Invictus and Captain Tycho, both of whom had already died.

The graphic novel isn't that bad. Aside from what boils down to a couple trivia questions its not really about Calgar though - If I were writing a synopsis I'd say its more about pre-neophyte recruiting, with a sins-of-the-past/revenge subplot, but it could have been any Space Marine leader in the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

You see it more in the Horus Heresy era novels.
"Theoretical and Practical" plus the switch from Red Helmets being a mark of punishment to being a mark of honor for Sergeants when a Sergeant "borrows" some power weapons right before a Marine vs Marine fight and saves the day.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

Hm. See, I could get behind that if that was the direction they leaned into more. But the UM stories I've read usually have their organizational stuff as either a bit of set dressing, a really roundabout way of saying, "And then they did the standard stuff, but extra well," or an outright detriment as they actively punish people for creative problem solving.

I could absolutely get into a story about a chapter who uses decidedly un-grimdark forms of level-headedness and practical logistics to defeat the enemy.

But in practice, my exposure to UM has been stuff like:
* "Marine punches avatar to death."
* "Smurf sent on a penitent crusade because he tried a non-codex tactic that actually seemed pretty reasonable in-context."
* "Smurf shoots necrons while telling himself he's a good guy. He is not a good guy."

Honestly this is more or less the reason why people will say they like the old lore more, and that GWs lore now has some serious comic-book-heroification problems.

In the 2nd ed Codex, when I had my first army (Ultramarines), Calgar's big claim to fame was . . . nothing really explicit. He commanded the defense of Ultramar against Hive Fleet Behemoth. He commanded like a commander should. I think there's a story where he holds the line against some Orks in front of a fortress gate for a day or something, but I can't find it atm.

Also in the 2nd ed book it highlights that the Ultramarines are efficient logisticians, portraying a habit with conquered worlds of ensuring defenses were in place, establishing trade routes and leaving advisors to make sure things go smoothly. It mentions that the region of Ultramar is so "prosperous and efficient" it always has several hundred regiments of PDF/Guard ready to go. Even to my 15 year old brain that all sounded like they were being . . . sensible.

This actually made me think, getting into 40K there was a lot more colour and punk to the setting. And I wonder if pushing for Grimdark actually end up sanitised it away. Some of the setting still has it, but it feels like marines even if theoretically are horrifying for people to make are so far pushed to a power fantasy that it’s lost its bite.
The ultramarines being just good at what they do, where they are stuck within the system and despite there power still cannot break free is good stuff for the s setting.
This also I think effects the other chapters more, space wolves getting more wolf in space it felt for a while. But also the heresy being less myth and legends become just this is the history when 40K should evoke the dark ages.

So many thoughts and it makes me want to dig out 2nd edition books and see what I find. But all mine are stored away.