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I don't even -mind- Calgar. My only issue with him is getting a new model again while others starve.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with his 8e model. It's not old. It didn't feel old to build. Its mould has not aged badly, the sprue tech is up to date. His proportions and scale are up to date.

It's just such a feeling of waste. Drukhari don't get to have a faction leader at all but Calgar gets this? I don't even play Drukhari but this is just sad.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't even -mind- Calgar. My only issue with him is getting a new model again while others starve.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with his 8e model. It's not old. It didn't feel old to build. Its mould has not aged badly, the sprue tech is up to date. His proportions and scale are up to date.

It's just such a feeling of waste. Drukhari don't get to have a faction leader at all but Calgar gets this? I don't even play Drukhari but this is just sad.

The problem with his 8th model is that he is in Gravis armor which in 8th was suppose to be the new hotness to replace the terminator armor but now in 10th when they realized that Gravis can't replace terminators (this is from a guy who really like Gravis models to) with them now getting upscaled models they needed him back in the right armor to sell more models.

 JNAProductions wrote:
He's leader of the Ultramarines, who are the poster boys for Marines.
He's also a very powerful model that you might see way too often.
And for me personally? The fact that he gets a CP automatically when Abaddon only has a 60% chance to irks me.

He gets - in theory - at least two chances at that 60% in each player turn, right? 4 chances per Battle Round where you can only add the one CP ever right?? And he's got a Strike + Sweep melee, right? He gets a Pick One Primarch/Sumpreme Strategiest Style ability that includes rare AURA abilities right? And Calgar only gets the point if he's the Warlord and on the battlefield right? I'd be mopre annoyed Abbadon is still MV 5" instead of 6" Abby is a cross between Primarch and Calgar. Calgar can lead MV6 squads and can MV6. Abby can lead MV6 Chosen but can't MV6. Beyond that, there's very little to whine about Abbadon about.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
He's leader of the Ultramarines, who are the poster boys for Marines.
He's also a very powerful model that you might see way too often.
And for me personally? The fact that he gets a CP automatically when Abaddon only has a 60% chance to irks me.

He gets - in theory - at least two chances at that 60% in each player turn, right? 4 chances per Battle Round where you can only add the one CP ever right?? And he's got a Strike + Sweep melee, right? He gets a Pick One Primarch/Sumpreme Strategiest Style ability that includes rare AURA abilities right? And Calgar only gets the point if he's the Warlord and on the battlefield right? I'd be mopre annoyed Abbadon is still MV 5" instead of 6" Abby is a cross between Primarch and Calgar. Calgar can lead MV6 squads and can MV6. Abby can lead MV6 Chosen but can't MV6. Beyond that, there's very little to whine about Abbadon about.

The only time there'd be a reason to NOT have Calgar as your Warlord is if you took Guilliman. So that's not a significant cost.

Abaddon also gets an option to get that 60% chance of CP each time he Fights or Shoots. So that's three times per round (two combats, one shooting) unless you spend a CP on Overwatch, which kinda negates the point of gaining a CP.
So, if Abaddon is in melee for the whole round, on any given round you've got almost a 95% chance of getting 1 CP. Which is still less than Calgar.

Overall, Abaddon has stronger rules. Which he dang well should-he's almost twice as many points as Calgar is.

 KingGarland wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't even -mind- Calgar. My only issue with him is getting a new model again while others starve.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with his 8e model. It's not old. It didn't feel old to build. Its mould has not aged badly, the sprue tech is up to date. His proportions and scale are up to date.

It's just such a feeling of waste. Drukhari don't get to have a faction leader at all but Calgar gets this? I don't even play Drukhari but this is just sad.

The problem with his 8th model is that he is in Gravis armor which in 8th was suppose to be the new hotness to replace the terminator armor but now in 10th when they realized that Gravis can't replace terminators (this is from a guy who really like Gravis models to) with them now getting upscaled models they needed him back in the right armor to sell more models.

Right, it's to sell more models of course, but it's still wasteful from a player perspective.

Gravis may or may not have been intended to replace Terminators but clearly never managed to do so, whether in-lore or in-game. Gravis is just regular power armour with extra plates bolted on. It's the Primaris counterpart to mark 3 armour. That is fine. It's clearly a sidegrade and something even the rank and file can access (Heavy Intercessors) rather than the mark of an elite.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
He's leader of the Ultramarines, who are the poster boys for Marines.
He's also a very powerful model that you might see way too often.
And for me personally? The fact that he gets a CP automatically when Abaddon only has a 60% chance to irks me.

He gets - in theory - at least two chances at that 60% in each player turn, right? 4 chances per Battle Round where you can only add the one CP ever right?? And he's got a Strike + Sweep melee, right? He gets a Pick One Primarch/Sumpreme Strategiest Style ability that includes rare AURA abilities right? And Calgar only gets the point if he's the Warlord and on the battlefield right? I'd be mopre annoyed Abbadon is still MV 5" instead of 6" Abby is a cross between Primarch and Calgar. Calgar can lead MV6 squads and can MV6. Abby can lead MV6 Chosen but can't MV6. Beyond that, there's very little to whine about Abbadon about.

The only time there'd be a reason to NOT have Calgar as your Warlord is if you took Guilliman. So that's not a significant cost.

Its significant to people who want to take both. Azrael doesn't have the requirement. At some point you are going to stop telling people they're playing their armies wrong and/or their armies shouldn't be in the game, right?

Edit to Add:

Abaddon also gets an option to get that 60% chance of CP each time he Fights or Shoots. So that's three times per round (two combats, one shooting) unless you spend a CP on Overwatch, which kinda negates the point of gaining a CP.
So, if Abaddon is in melee for the whole round, on any given round you've got almost a 95% chance of getting 1 CP. Which is still less than Calgar.

Overall, Abaddon has stronger rules. Which he dang well should-he's almost twice as many points as Calgar is.

A free CP is a free CP. Getting it by Overwatching just means a "free" Overwatch you were likely already doing anyway - because you wouldn't know it was free until after you spent the first point.

Breton wrote:
At some point you are going to stop telling people they're playing their armies wrong and/or their armies shouldn't be in the game, right?

Please tell me where I said that. I am genuinely curious.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:
At some point you are going to stop telling people they're playing their armies wrong and/or their armies shouldn't be in the game, right?

Please tell me where I said that. I am genuinely curious.

a]

Do you want the time where you said something you didn't care about wasn't a significant cost?

Or the time you made an entire thread about it?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I was making a proposed rules thread, about designing missions for factions that emphasize their skills and are more accurate to what they'd be doing in the lore... But I realized, the only one I had a solid idea for was Marines.

Obviously some factions are great for pitched battles (Guard, Nids, Orks) but of the factions that probably SHOULDN'T be fighting like happens on the tabletop, what should they be doing instead?

Breton wrote:
Or the time you made an entire thread about it?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I was making a proposed rules thread, about designing missions for factions that emphasize their skills and are more accurate to what they'd be doing in the lore... But I realized, the only one I had a solid idea for was Marines.

Obviously some factions are great for pitched battles (Guard, Nids, Orks) but of the factions that probably SHOULDN'T be fighting like happens on the tabletop, what should they be doing instead?

Ah yes. The thread I made to see what kind of missions could be made to better suit the narrative of forces, like Eldar or Marines. What a terrible thing to do.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:
Or the time you made an entire thread about it?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I was making a proposed rules thread, about designing missions for factions that emphasize their skills and are more accurate to what they'd be doing in the lore... But I realized, the only one I had a solid idea for was Marines.

Obviously some factions are great for pitched battles (Guard, Nids, Orks) but of the factions that probably SHOULDN'T be fighting like happens on the tabletop, what should they be doing instead?

Ah yes. The thread I made to see what kind of missions could be made to better suit the narrative of forces, like Eldar or Marines. What a terrible thing to do.

You asked, I answered, you sarcastically avoided.

SHOULDN'T be fighting like

Breton wrote:
Its significant to people who want to take both. Azrael doesn't have the requirement.

Azrael doesn't have that requirement because people weren't spamming taking him and the Lion at the same time, unlike the perpetual bromance between Guilliman and Calgar. That was a rule change designed to break up abuse.

 BorderCountess wrote:

Breton wrote:
Its significant to people who want to take both. Azrael doesn't have the requirement.

Azrael doesn't have that requirement because people weren't spamming taking him and the Lion at the same time, unlike the perpetual bromance between Guilliman and Calgar. That was a rule change designed to break up abuse.

Which is neither here nor there on "Calgar getting it all the time" even though he doesn't, Azrael does, and Abbadon almost all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Calgar is the epitome of what's wrong with Space Marines.

Helbrecht is a fanatical maniac, Dante literally hates being alive but keeps not dying, Cato Sicarius is a monumental d-bag who gets put in his place and actually grows as a character.

Calgar just does everything and is always on top. He didn't even stay dead when he got wrecked by Abbadon himself.

Calgar was willing to sacrifice himself to delay Abbadon long enough for the rest of the Imperium to steal his flagship. And then he crossed the Rubicon to sell more Primaris Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax wrote:
there are a few interesting things about Calgar for me, but they've all been downplayed/ignored:
1) Calgar isn't Calgar, he took the name of another aspirant. Mentioned once in the comic, never brought up again.

2) The Gauntlets being reforged Chaos weapons. Boring McBoringface of the Boring Marines walking around with Chaos Weapon relics would be an interesting juxtaposition, but the Gauntlets' origins are never of any consequence whatsoever. Same with all the reclaimed Chaos Weapon relics.

3) Calgar's feelings of failure and inadequacy since Guilliman's return as stated in Dark Imperium. Again, a moment of interesting depth that is never remarked upon again.

There's potential in Calgar, there are opportunities to make him interesting, but for a character given so much attention both in terms of lore and models, none of these opportunities are expanded upon, and at this point I'd rather just stop hearing about him in favor of other characters who have had less of the spotlight and are more nuanced and interesting

#2 might be a Retcon. What I remember way way way back when was that they were "originally used" by Guilliman who took them off an Ork warboss. Of course this was before Primarchs were 20 feet tall and people didn't wonder how The Lion and Azrael could wear the same helmet.

#3 is part of the reason I want a big ole Black Library book. The return of the Primarchs on both sides upsets a lot of status quo apple carts, and I'd like to see them return the equilibrium - and HOW they return the equilibrium.

The Gauntlets being reclaimed from a Chaos Champion was mentioned in the 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines from 1995, so if it's a retcon it's been in place for thirty years

Breton wrote:

Calgar was willing to sacrifice himself to delay Abbadon long enough for the rest of the Imperium to steal his flagship. And then he crossed the Rubicon to sell more Primaris Marines.

Calgar was Primaris before that and when he got his arse kicked, he then got made into an Imperial saint.
Oh also he didn't die. He faced Abaddon himself, had his hearts destroyed and somehow survived. And the Vengeful Spirit wasn't stolen just damaged.
The end of the Vigilus campaing was naff just to make sure that Chaos wouldn't win despite so obviously having an advantage. Permanent stalemate only for 40k.

 Pariah Press wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wherever I go, no matter who I talk to, I find a strong dislike of Marneus Calgar. Why is this?

Because you never talk to me! I f***ing love Calgar. That guy has two power fists! TWO! I bought the really old Calgar sitting on a throne mini at my LGS and committed to Ultramarines for life at that moment.

Haha, this! The Powerfist was the iconic Space Marine leader weapon when I started. Both Rogue Trader and 2nd ed featured Space Marine Captains with Powerfists front and center, (as did the 3rd ed Codex later). And the RTB01 plastics plus the basic metal Tactical Squad of 2nd featured a Sergeant with a Powerfist. Calgar was the ultimate Space Marine Captain because he had two of them, and he was the leader of the Ultra-Marines,so you knew he was the best of the best.

But also I liked him because he was drama free compared to the other main chapters of the day. Just a guy who was good at his job.

However, the guy that actually brought me into Ultras for my first army was the proto-Sicarius, OG UM Captain model. That roman crest amd the straight arm pointing sword looked like a guy who led with purpose and efficiency.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pariah Press wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wherever I go, no matter who I talk to, I find a strong dislike of Marneus Calgar. Why is this?

Because you never talk to me! I f***ing love Calgar. That guy has two power fists! TWO! I bought the really old Calgar sitting on a throne mini at my LGS and committed to Ultramarines for life at that moment.

Haha, this! The Powerfist was the iconic Space Marine leader weapon when I started. Both Rogue Trader and 2nd ed featured Space Marine Captains with Powerfists front and center, (as did the 3rd ed Codex later). And the RTB01 plastics plus the basic metal Tactical Squad of 2nd featured a Sergeant with a Powerfist. Calgar was the ultimate Space Marine Captain because he had two of them, and he was the leader of the Ultra-Marines,so you knew he was the best of the best.

But also I liked him because he was drama free compared to the other main chapters of the day. Just a guy who was good at his job.

However, the guy that actually brought me into Ultras for my first army was the proto-Sicarius, OG UM Captain model. That roman crest amd the straight arm pointing sword looked like a guy who led with purpose and efficiency.

You know, despite not liking Calgar myself, I do appreciate the earnest enthusiasm for him in this post.

Genuinely glad you get a kick out of him, and I hope you have a blast fielding him.

I actually really like the ultramarines, but find space marines often get a bogged down in weird stuff and over obsession with their own quirks to a really tiring degree.

Them being kind of just not the weirdest is really why I like them now, and Calgar I think actually is cool for similar reasons.
Could actually give me more ultramarines stuff as a whole.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pariah Press wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wherever I go, no matter who I talk to, I find a strong dislike of Marneus Calgar. Why is this?

Because you never talk to me! I f***ing love Calgar. That guy has two power fists! TWO! I bought the really old Calgar sitting on a throne mini at my LGS and committed to Ultramarines for life at that moment.

Haha, this! The Powerfist was the iconic Space Marine leader weapon when I started. Both Rogue Trader and 2nd ed featured Space Marine Captains with Powerfists front and center, (as did the 3rd ed Codex later). And the RTB01 plastics plus the basic metal Tactical Squad of 2nd featured a Sergeant with a Powerfist. Calgar was the ultimate Space Marine Captain because he had two of them, and he was the leader of the Ultra-Marines,so you knew he was the best of the best.

But also I liked him because he was drama free compared to the other main chapters of the day. Just a guy who was good at his job.

However, the guy that actually brought me into Ultras for my first army was the proto-Sicarius, OG UM Captain model. That roman crest amd the straight arm pointing sword looked like a guy who led with purpose and efficiency.

You know, despite not liking Calgar myself, I do appreciate the earnest enthusiasm for him in this post.

Genuinely glad you get a kick out of him, and I hope you have a blast fielding him.

I'll second this. I never miss an opportunity to grump or to take jabs at smurfs, but I sincerely don't want to yuck anyone's yum. If you're genuinely enjoying using unit X, then that's awesome and I'm glad to hear it.

Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse. Mechanicaly, I 100% understand the hate. Calgar gets 3 models in a short span of time and a WS player can't even get a bike for their main dude, which is still better then the Crimson Fist guy who can't even get a model for his main dude. And the just convert argument doesn't work in a world of "no model, no rules". Am not even playing regular marines, and we still get backlash nerfs, because of marines (had our purgators destroyed as a unit for a whole edition, because of Ultramarines) . For regular marines it is even worde. Here is one subfaction with crazy model/rule support, OP too and each time GW decides to nerf your regular dudes, dreadnoughts etc you can get angry. You get more angry when GW starts to balance the whole faction around "well you have Calgar/Gulliman". Not so fun if you play Salamanders or even worse a homebrew chapter. Rules based hate I perfectly get.

Heck my psychic phase and psychic stuff is gone, because Tau have no psykers.

Karol wrote:
Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse.

You've never read a book or watched a show and disliked how a certain character was handled despite liking the rest of the story?

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Karol wrote:
Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse.

You've never read a book or watched a show and disliked how a certain character was handled despite liking the rest of the story?

...or felt that the rest of the story suffered because of how that one character was handled?

Basically, Calgar comes off as a glorified Gary Stu to me.

You mean like the time Ragnar Blackmane and Ghaz killed each other then both came back to life? Or the time Guilliman and Johnson came back to life. . .

I never paid much attention to the lore about named characters in general, and definitely since around 3rd or 4th edition or so. I heard there was a comic book for Calgar. I know little about it and I'm probably happier for it.

Back in my day we had Characters like Captain Invictus and Captain Tycho, both of whom had already died.

Sadly, the best characters never get models or rules.

Tankred, the Black Templars Dreadnought from the Damnation Crusade comics, Amberly Vail, Jurgen and Commissar Cain...
and the guy with the best space marine name ever: Malum Caedo. (Lit. I KILL EVIL)....

In retrospect, Malum Caedo would be tough to create rules for. He did kill 8 Greater Daemons and thousands of lesser demons, cultists, and Chaos Marines... by himself.

The conscious Calgar hate can be traced back to 5th edition. The ultramarines had shifted to being the poster marines (Blood Angels in 2nd, BTs in 3rd, Ultras in 4th and 5th eds).

Ward's 5th ed marine codex over amped Calgar's rules and background, we get his defeat of an avatar which set the precedent (as I stated it would all the way back then) of the avatar and other equally large creatures being defeated by everyone as their hero moment.

The book also said every marine desired to be an ultramarine because they were so gosh darn the bestest.

From there the Ultramarines remained the central marine chapter and Calgar effectively the poster boy of the poster boys.

Since then we've had an expansion of special blue boy characters, but they are by definition inferior to their lord as none of them are chapter master.

The continual stat inflation of the character and his weapons doesn't help.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Karol wrote:
Now I do not understand the whole "dislike because of lore" thing. The lore is what it is anyway one dude is not going to make it better or worse.

You've never read a book or watched a show and disliked how a certain character was handled despite liking the rest of the story?

I did. but w40k is a game, not a book or a movie.The more 8th ed and later lore I read, and then the more prior 8th ed stuff I read the more it felt like post 8th w40k is a very different game, but also a very different lore setting. Is it stupid, yeah most of the time for a lot of factions. But I am only interested in it, if it affects the game mechanics. Removing the psychic phase or making GK such "masters" of their weapons that they suddenly forget how to use hammers, or similar stuff for other factions. I understand getting angry at that. And the lore is anything GW wants it to be, and they change it for their own likes/dislikes modified only by potential $ lose/gain. They noticed how people disliked the way Yarrik was "offscreen" killed, had his replacment ready and sculpted, but in the end decided to bring him back. Is it stupid? probably like Ghaz suffering a critical head injury for the second or third time in his life and somehow surviving. In the end meh. As long as IG or Orks are fun to play, no one cares. On the flip side the best writen cool lore doesn't help a faction that is unfun to buy/play.

Calgar's always struck me as quite "boring" - but equally Calgar hate, Ultramarine hate, even Marine hate just strikes me as bit dated.

Maybe this is about how I am and where I am - but in the 2010s, 5th edition, sure. Much mockery, much hatred.

These days? It all seems a bit performative and clickbait. I just can't hold a grudge over toy soldiers that long. If someone's actually painted up an Ultramarines army more respect to them. For all the mockery of being the poster boys, its actually quite fun to see them on the table.

Tyel wrote:
Calgar's always struck me as quite "boring" - but equally Calgar hate, Ultramarine hate, even Marine hate just strikes me as bit dated.

Maybe this is about how I am and where I am - but in the 2010s, 5th edition, sure. Much mockery, much hatred.

These days? It all seems a bit performative and clickbait. I just can't hold a grudge over toy soldiers that long. If someone's actually painted up an Ultramarines army more respect to them. For all the mockery of being the poster boys, its actually quite fun to see them on the table.

There's a subtle distinction between the hate for Calgar and the hate for Ultramarines.

The hate for Ultramarines has more to do with how many freaking characters and releases that one chapter gets, while whole factions seem to languish in obscurity. And how many named Captain models does one faction really need? Heck, they had to basically invent a new position for Cato Sicarius to justify his new model!

Calgar, on the other hand, just comes off as a Gary Stu.

Idk. I'd put my general dislike for smurfs in the same bucket as Calgar.

It's not that I actually "hate" the faction. I just find them really, really bland. Like someone started painting their army based on the starting box art without realizing there were other, cooler chapters they could paint their marines as instead.

So whenever they get any kind of release, I just kind of sigh and think about how cool it might have been to get a Black Dragons model or something xenos.

When I found out they were doing more 40k comics, I got excited. Then when I found out one of them was all about Calgar, I just went. "Oh. That's a shame. What a waste."

Guilliman kind of gets put in the bucket too. I'm not a big fan of the primarchs being in 40k, but if they *had* to do a loyalist primarch, they started with the second most boring one. (The most boring, of course, being Dorn.) They introduced a few genuinely kind of neat plot hooks with him though, so I'll let him stay out of the bucket for now, even though they haven't followed through on those plot hooks as much as I'd like.

UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
UM are just kind of dull. They have hall monitor energy. Their gimmick is following pre-approved tactics to a fault rather than doing something interesting/surprising/creative. They kinda sorta want to be one of the "good guy" chapters, but
A.) No chapter are actually good guys.
B.) Lamenters and Salamanders kind of do it better.

I used to think this, but I've sort of come out the other end.
Ultramarines are so dull they become cool - because the other flavours of Marine are "duller".
"I'm the strongest"
"I'm the toughest"
"I'm the fastest"
"I'm the sneakiest"
"Wolf wolf wolf wolf"
"Look, I'm the best organised. That's why we have an Empire, and you lot struggle with running a bath."

It is admittedly a niche reading of the source material perhaps. Rather than focusing on the tedious times Calgar bro-fists Necron super weapons into the heart of stars etc etc.
But this better superior organisation and Empire building kind of makes Ultramarines a lot more interesting as a result. Whether that feeds through to the tabletop can be debated. But as a thing in the lore.

As I've gotten older I've really started to find the UM as the coolest. They're the no nonsense just competent military command get gak done.

Whereas a lot of other chapters just kinda read as silly "hurr durr I'm the most angry, I charge suicidally straight into enemy guns and that makes me a better warrior". Like, bruh.

The UM spawned a lot of (honestly justified) hate in 5th when it was very explicit "these guys are the best, everyone wishes they were these guys". And we all know the 40k community hasn't really updated their memes since that era.

And it is still frankly comical the sheer volume of characters the UM gets. And just recently getting a whole *second* Calgar model just seems laughable when so many factions are crying out for any kind of character.

I also find Calgar's lore a little too Gary Stu. I remember back in Vigilus where the author really wanted us to know that the only reason Calgar was losing his duel with Abaddon was because that was the plan and he was *letting* Abaddon win. Also in the recent SM2 video game one of the central points of Captain Titus is that he's unnaturally resistant to the warp and that creates a tonne of suspicion upon him. In the final climax Titus is barely able to just about resist the warp forces uses against him. Calgar meanwhile? Calgar just strolls through casually gunning everything down through sheer awesomeness. It's just... uh.

I absolutely adore his original Terminator model though. The new ones just don't compare.