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So the enter key doesn't work on a Mac?

CaptK, while I find your attempts to undercut my unparallelled GT record mildly amusing, you're strayed off point. Please get back to explaining how speed makes sense for a guy with a flamer template, or how Emperor's children tactics integrate with Thousand sons.

Are you even listening to what he is posting?

You aren't even argueing the point anymore.

Ohhh, I see there is a BIG difference between a Slaneesh DP with the Sorceror Upgrade, WoC, and speed and a Tzeentch DP with WoC, and speed. Sure there are some extra gubin's each can take, but they are essentially Close Combat monsters with a flamer template.

Ask me this Ed, why don't you just take two Lieutenants with Flight and WoC if you are so determined not to get into Close Combat. I think this is where the whole arguement started, why take a Statured Lord (or any lord that qualifies as a DP for that matther) and not want to get into close combat.

And I hardly call your record "unparallelled", if I remember correctly, you have never won an overall. Sure you won all your games, but other people win all their games all the time, and you don't see them bragging about it. CaptK for instance, took his Ultramarines to Adepticon and over 7 games (4 Gladiator and 3 RTT, if I have my numbers right) and he only lost once. And before you are critical of that, please note that since you have never been there you cannot comment on the quality of competition. Yet, he nevers mentions any of his win records because he isn't trying to use it as some lame "street cred" that you seem to do.

Yeah Ed, my enter key does work. However, when I type my posts in paragraphs and submit them, the posted message gets squished together. As for undercutting your record, there is no undercutting. Great. You went undefeated. Again, like I said back when you did that, congratulations...genuinely, congratulations. However, that was a long time ago. While it was a great achievement it's old news. It also doesn't make you the end all be all authority of everything either. But you are right we are getting off the topic and you and I dancing around in a fruitless discussion probably bores both you and I...so with that back on topic.
I really can't convince you that speed is better. I guess this falls into the realm of personal preference. So when you play in your battle with the Prince with flight, let me know how it goes. I am genuinely curious how it will work for you. I have found speed to be superior to flight in every CoD game I've played thus far. As for mixing strategies between Slaneesh and TS, there is none. There is no disadvantage between taking speed on any Prince with those Marks. Both are close combat monsters due to their daemonic abilities. The interesting part is that Mahu plays TS; has a statured Prince with speed and WoC said that it is quite good, yet you dismissed his posts. The biggest downfall I see to Flight Vs. Speed in CoD is that it is quite easy to defend against WoC. Speed helps to counter that. My other observations are: what would you do against an opponent that has a Fortified Medicae building? I see that as a potential stumbling block for your Prince...and god forbid the building has terminators in it. Capt K

Well if I (the completely unknown one) could jump in here for a quick sec and get this a little off topic

Are Thousand Sons decent enough to win in COD? I've always been kinda tempted to build them, but the only builds that
I've seen work are with Defiler/Preds and I'd rather avoid those.

Not asking for a tactics thrad (though if you feel like it...) but is thre a decent 1500-1750 build that doesn't rely on the aforementioned Defilers/Preds?
(a simple yes/no would be cool, I can always try and puzzle it out )

Posted By Mahu on 07/07/2006 1:24 PM
Are you even listening to what he is posting?

Ask me this Ed, why don't you just take two Lieutenants with Flight and WoC if you are so determined not to get into Close Combat. I think this is where the whole arguement started, why take a Statured Lord (or any lord that qualifies as a DP for that matter) and not want to get into close combat.

Because he wants a cheap monstrous creature that can fly around and kill MEQ's in cover easily while being cheap on points? He said he liked it for multi purpose: Stature gives it tank killing ability, higher toughness and the flight gets him where he wants to go for not many points all together. mauleed never evn posted his upgrades other than stature flight and WoC because that is what he wants, the rest is just details. You are still arguing about charging when he stated at the beginning that he wasn't planning on charging it in most cases.
You would make a great target for this DP. You will worry about being charged instead of eating an armor ignoring flamer template.

@Hexx: It depends if your friends or tournament organizers allow the Key to be used. If they let yyou use the Key, I believe that you can make a pretty decent list. Blackmoor would be able to shed more light since he did rather well with his TS army at Adepticon.
Capt K

And I hardly call your record "unparallelled", if I remember correctly, you have never won an overall. Sure you won all your games, but other people win all their games all the time, and you don't see them bragging about it.

Can you name another person that's 16-0 in GTs (and I'm only calling events with 75+ people a GT).

And I didn't bring up my obviously superior record. CaptK did, and continues to, as if because I'm such a proven winner, and I am so dismissive of his obviously ridiculous position, somehow that adds up to me being not only wrong, but evil.

I find it doubly amusing that his record is almost as good, yet, when really examined, infinitely worse.

Anyway, yes, two LTs would probably be better, but I want to paint the model. But I'll keep that in mind if I really need to tune up.

What could be really nasty is that the campaign allows me to take Ahriman's Chosen, which could give me 4 flying flamer templates!

 

Sometimes I forget why I win so much. These threads remind me nicely of why.

And I didn't bring up my obviously superior record. CaptK did, and continues to, as if because I'm such a proven winner, and I am so dismissive of his obviously ridiculous position, somehow that adds up to me being not only wrong, but evil.

Are we resorting to lieing now?

@ Snoogums. I'll take that bet...hehe. A guy that's flying around hoping to vap units is asking to get shot pretty quick. The thing people are thinking is that Mahu and I are thinking close combat, when we aren't. We were coming from the angle of manueverability coupled with a definite back up plan in case the flame template is less desirable to use for that turn. Speed helps since you can make a faster move overall. Heck if he wanted a cheap stature Prince, Speed is 5pts cheaper and can move just as fast, if not faster.
Capt K

Hang on Ed. I brought up your record? Um, I think you did....oh good. I don't have to repost it...Mahu did.
As far as going undefeated in GT's...good for you. Sure I can't name another person to do that. Big deal. Besides, GT's are essentially dead and the only other real big events that draws exceptional players is the UK GT and Adepticon...neither of which you attend. As far as my record is concerned...I don't talk about my record because I don't really care what it is, nor do I deem it important to a tactics discussion. You on the other hand, seem to. Tell me this Ed, can you name a person that's won multiple Overalls? I can. And while he is a successful player, he sure as hell doesn't use his record as some form of credibilty to back up a point of view...nor does he constantly remind people that he is a multi-time Overall winner.
But I digress. Let's move past this since it grows old and move on in the TS discussion. My next question is: are they allowing you to use the Key, Ed? If so, a realm of cool possibilities opens up then.
Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/07/2006 3:20 PM
@ Snoogums. I'll take that bet...hehe. A guy that's flying around hoping to vap units is asking to get shot pretty quick. The thing people are thinking is that Mahu and I are thinking close combat, when we aren't. We were coming from the angle of manueverability coupled with a definite back up plan in case the flame template is less desirable to use for that turn. Speed helps since you can make a faster move overall. Heck if he wanted a cheap stature Prince, Speed is 5pts cheaper and can move just as fast, if not faster.
Capt K

So you actually think that fleeting when not shooting is better than moving 12" and shooting? You can't move as fast as the maximum allowed on a 1/6 chance roll when not shooting as you can simply moving 12" and shooting. You are only faster overall on one turn and that is the turn that you charge without shooting which is the opposite of the intended goal. With flight you move your max distance every round and still get to move a total of 12 inches on the charge including better shooting. Your logic is just lacking logic.

You are only faster overall on one turn and that is the turn that you charge without shooting which is the opposite of the intended goal.

Quoted for truth.

Plus on average you won't really be much faster. For a turn two charge, speed will average an extra inch on flight (30" vs 31").

Yes, speed is cheaper but then you are less likely to use your psychic power. So you've got a bunch of points tied into MoT and WoC that you'll rarely get to use. All for an extra inch of overall movement and a 5 point savings.

We were coming from the angle of manueverability coupled with a definite back up plan in case the flame template is less desirable to use for that turn.

I guess we are arguing that one should plan their moves better to make full use of WoC and MoT.

@snoogums: Explain to me how you get 12" of assault movement with flight. In your last post you claimed that. Overall, the fastest the model with flight can go is 18" (assuming you assault to gain more inches). The fastest on average a model can go with speed is 21" (assuming you assault to gain more inches) However, moving that fast is only required for a turn or so at which you are set up to flame better and also have a better chance at choosing your angle of attack if you decide that assault is preferable. With speed you have the ability to reach higher levels to attack. With flight that is more difficult, since the opponent can defend better against it. Remember assaulting into cover with flight only gets you 3d6" take the highest....speed gets you 3d6" and double the highest when you assault. Plus, by placing models in such a way on the higher levels can actually stop a flight Prince from shooting or even a potential assault (remember that each level is 3" so a statured prince can only be on the lower level if everyone is on the 3rd. because of his size.) My biggest question is why would you pay the points for stature and waste such a good close combat statline for the chance to potentially hurt units in cover with a template weapon when you can make a model that is cheaper to do the same? We've already addressed the how easy it is to defend against flame templates. It may work it may not, but if I am paying for stature, I definitely want the versatility inherent in daemonic speed rather than flight. What about a chosen squad with flight and WoC? More expensive overall, but having more WoC on the table is going to do more damage than just one. So in closing on this topic, I think Winterman makes a great point. I think the real debate is how you chose to manuever your Prince in CoD to maximize WoC. I feel that, based on my experience in CoD games, that speed is the winner due to its versatility and utility over multiple mission objectives/challenges. If people disagree they are free to do so. My only response to them is to try it out both ways in all the missions and see what works best for you. For me, speed all the way baby. Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/09/2006 11:42 PM
@snoogums: Explain to me how you get 12" of assault movement with flight. In your last post you claimed that.

I said you got 12" of movement when you charged, I meant the movement phase. Of course you are still being dense so:

12" movement + WoC +6 inch charge = 18 total inches of movement.

With Demonic Speed:

6" movement WoC +12 inch charge = 8 total inches of movement.

Speed is only better if you aren't using WoC. We want to use WoC. It can't be any clearer.

@snoogums: Well DUH! What do you think we have been discussing? I know that you want to use WoC. However, my point is that there will be times where the faster movement and a possible assault will be more favorable, instead of using WoC. Nobody so far, has still not answered my question of why would you waste the great statline that stature gives (in assaults) and waste it on trying to use WoC when you can get that ability elsewhere...and probably cheaper? Reread my posts because you seem to be missing the part where I explain how the one template can be less desirable and easy to defend against. Conversely, a chosen unit each with flight and WoC has multiple templates. Having multiple templates will help vs. a unit (or units) that are spread out on multiple levels. Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/10/2006 8:42 AM
@snoogums: Well DUH! What do you think we have been discussing? I know that you want to use WoC. However, my point is that there will be times where the faster movement and a possible assault will be more favorable, instead of using WoC. Nobody so far, has still not answered my question of why would you waste the great statline that stature gives (in assaults) and waste it on trying to use WoC when you can get that ability elsewhere...and probably cheaper? Reread my posts because you seem to be missing the part where I explain how the one template can be less desirable and easy to defend against. Conversely, a chosen unit each with flight and WoC has multiple templates. Having multiple templates will help vs. a unit (or units) that are spread out on multiple levels. Capt K

It's obvious that you don't get the point of the thread. He painted up a model and wants to use it, doesn't care about the other options and wants to use WoC, not charge. You are arguing exactly the opposite in every single post and aren't contributing because you keep suggesting something other than what is wanting to be done and instead trying your hardest to get him to use something other than the one model he made the thread about. You could have made one post that you think other things are better and stopped but you keep trying which is counterproductive.

If he was so dead set to use any one particular model, than why ask advice about it?

Furthermore the thread was about Thousand Sons in CoD, not about whether speed is better than flight, it just denegrated to that point. Myself and CaptK are just trying to argue the best options you can get, but because Mauleed is being an ass, and temperatures are raised it bacame an arguement in which Mauleed continues being an *donkey*and we are calling him on it. I give Winterman points because at least he is addressing the issue, not throwing around back handed insults to try and prove his beterment as a gamer.

The model and options Mauleed uses is his choice, it's his arrogance at not even considering a possible better option that has fueled this thread.

mauleed:  I think your a victim of your own success. 

I think that most people have come to expect a (kill kill kill) mentality your armies. 
You have baffled almost everyone by having a DP that is designed to be a Swiss army knife instead of a hammer.

There is a saying: when the only tool you have is a hammer  all your problems start looking like nails.

I totally agree with your DP (and have played the COD/city fight games to back it up).  I think that in any COD
game you play with this lord, the army will do well.

Yes Dspeed is great if you want to use your DP as a cruise missile of death (that will get killed), but
in the COD games I have played versatility is needed more than just straight out killing power.

The winged DP can fly around at a reasonably fast speed using WOC to thin out units, and charge the weaker units.
Also the Winged DP will probably be around till the end of the game to help out with those last ditch efforts to take/keep an objective!

mauleed: why a pred (AC/HB)?

I always seem to have problems with them in COD. With the fire lanes blocked by so many buildings I always found it hard to make pred's dangerous. How has the tank worked out for you?

"Kreenshaw wrote: I totally agree with your DP (and have played the COD/city fight games to back it up). I think that in any COD game you play with this lord, the army will do well. Yes Dspeed is great if you want to use your DP as a cruise missile of death (that will get killed), but in the COD games I have played versatility is needed more than just straight out killing power."


Who said anything about using it as a cruise missile? And how is Flight more versatile when Dspeed can get you better movement overall? The other item again that people haven't addressed is the effectiveness on one WoC template. One WoC template is rather easy to defend against. But a unit with several is sick.


"Kreenshaw wrote:The winged DP can fly around at a reasonably fast speed using WOC to thin out units, and charge the weaker units. Also the Winged DP will probably be around till the end of the game to help out with those last ditch efforts to take/keep an objective!"


That could work, but speed would be more effective in achieving that I would think. In most cases models with flight tend to get shot quickly since they are mostly moving into positions that are exposed. But again, I guess it comes down to personal preference.
Capt K

The model and options Mauleed uses is his choice, it's his arrogance at not even considering a possible better option that has fueled this thread.

I'd consider it if it were a better option (or if you guys even made any sense).

For example, one of you pointed out how much more effective 2 flying LTs would be, so I might actually consider a flying LT and 3 flying chosen of Ahriman when the campaign gets to bigger games.

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/11/2006 12:11 PM
That could work, but speed would be more effective in achieving that I would think. In most cases models with flight tend to get shot quickly since they are mostly moving into positions that are exposed.
Capt K

In a normal 40k game I would agree with you that models with flight get shot way to soon.  But in COD I have found that there is so much cover/buildings that being shot down with wings is unlikely.
also in the wings vs DS.

I understand that when charging DS, is the better choice.  (also better in more open games)

But Wings give a standard movement 12inches per turn, while DS is 6+d6.  (There will be turns where your not charging things)
Also with the wings threes is little doubt that you can get to a unit on the 3rd floor.  (I know that DS has a good chance of making it up 3 floors but its not a sure thing.)

If Ed were playing a h2h only monster DP I would agree with the DS.  But it seems like he was looking for a more versatile DP so I agree with the wings.

I see where your argument is valid, but I just don't think it works as well in this situation (my opinion). 

@Kreenshaw: I see your point, but the thing that perplexes me is why would you spend points on D Stature for a weapon that predominately shoots? Stature brings a better statline for close combat. There are other ways that you can get WoC on the table to be more effective. But you raise a great point that was brought up earlier. Speed has a better chance at reaching higher floors, where models would be trying to defend against the flight. But maybe a way around that is to field a defiler. That way the opponent will have to place models on lower levels to avoid the potential pie plates.
Capt K

"Mauleed wrote: For example, one of you pointed out how much more effective 2 flying LTs would be, so I might actually consider a flying LT and 3 flying chosen of Ahriman when the campaign gets to bigger games."

Cool. That is a great way of maximizing on WoC. Far better than the DP. How large are the point increments and how often?
Capt K

Also with the wings threes is little doubt that you can get to a unit on the 3rd floor.

Not with WoC and most certainly not with an Assault move.

With Wings, in order to WOC a unit in a building, 9 times out of 10, you have to get into the open, just outside a building to get into the necessary range. You can't get within 1" on an enemy model so landing on the third or second level is impossible.

Then, because you can only flame template the level you are on or one above (or below). You will never flame the third level. Also since you can target only one level, the amount of coverage will be limited. And not to mention if you are attacking a Medicare bulding.

Now, you have killed your WoC casualties. Your turn is ending quick. You would like to keep your DP alive (though because he is not scoring, he is desposible anyway). So either you are caught out in the open, or you charge. If you think you can take the shooting fine, otherwise you make your assault move. Now you get 3 D6 and pick the highest, but say your opponent removes casualties where you are 6+ inches away, or he is entirely on the third floor, you are stuck facing all those nice guns. Congradulations, you spend all those points for a model that killed a few Space Marines and died.

Now with Speed it is a different scenario. Say you stick behind cover on your advance but you are not hindered by any DT tests. Average Fleet roll is 4", so statistically you are moving 10" per turn, which compared to flight is only 6" less than flight over 3 turns.

Now say you approch your building the same way as the flight model and kill the same amount. Now you have the option to charge a much greater distance, keeping your DP from the shooty death that awaits the flight model.

We also haven't addressed the forward movement of the enemy forces (which is neccessary for you opponent to capture the objective. In those scenarios you are facing the same probkems speed has versus flight in standard 40K. Say you catch a Marine unit in the open between buildings, your WoC template work a whole lot better. Now you face the same threat, stand out in the open because all those lovely casualties where pulled to keep you out of close combat, but the beuty of speed is that you are never out of charge range after you use your WoC template.

In the end, all we are argueing is that Speed has a much better versatility compared to flight. And if you are going to spend the points on Stature, you probably want to get into assault. Now that doesn't discount Flight as a valid choice, but like I said you are probably better off with a few flying LTs than a Statured one.

Posted" by="" captkaruthors="" on="" 07/11/2006="" 12:50="" pm="">
@Kreenshaw: I see your point, but the thing that perplexes me is why would you spend points on D Stature for a weapon that predominately shoots?

Why would you not?  I don't have a codex on my at the moment, but isn't DS only like 15points?  And reasonably any lord is going to want some CC ability.  Why would you not want all the other benefits. 
You are right in that its not the absolute cheapest way to field WOC but for the 15 pts its worth it to be versatile.

Basic rule of thumb thats undeniable:

Its much easier to drop a flamer template properly, catching the maxium number of enemy under it, with a 12" move, than a 6" move(fleet or no fleet).

Basic rule of thumb thats undeniable:

Its much easier to drop a flamer template properly, catching the maxium number of enemy under it, with a 12" move, than a 6" move(fleet or no fleet).

Of course.

The main arguements here are that flight is better if you plan to use WOC (an 8 in templat) and that speed allows you to charge farther. Neither of these are in dispute. The problem is that the people arguing on the different sides have different purposes in mind.

First off, on all turns when not charging flight is better than speed, not by much but it is obviously so. When you charge if you are planning on shooting then they both move the same distance so if you have charge problems with one you will usually have them with the other (tall buildings being the only difference as speed gets you up one more floor during its charge move).

If you are going to pay the points for WOC you need to use it. It is to expensive to just sit on it. A guy who moves 6 inches and shoots will never get many enemy models under the template. Sure the 12 in charge gets you prety far afterwords but you wased the points for the WOC.

If you want to use the shooting attack it is better to take demonic flight as you can fly next to the enemy models and then shoot them guaranteing many guys under the template and still a fairly good chance of assulting them afterwords (if you are routinly killing all the guys in charge range you have a whole different problem and need to rethink your strategy).

Basically if what you want to do is charge in and cause carnage dont take WOC and take demonic speed. For that purpose it is better. If you want to use WOC dont take demonic speed, take flight.

I wonder if this thread would've gone 5 pages if it was anybody but Mauleed asking? Proving him wrong seems to be the motivation here.