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Posted By mauleed on 07/06/2006 12:34 PM

CaptK, just so we're clear, your points are:

a. Speed is better because you've used it and we should trust you

b. I shouldn't point out how stupid that is until I fly to Chicago and beat you there?

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page.

You forgot:

c: Rolling rough terrain every time you move and charge in a straight line is better than flying to avoid it all except for a short charge.

Ah no Ed....again you missed the point. Point 1: Using your win record to legitimize your point of view is lame Point 2: Speed is better, since the people you are berating have *actually* applied/ tested it to a game vs flight....you have not. Yours is an assumption (a well thought out one, but an assumption none-the-less.) Point 3: Because of said win record, you feel that you have a better grasp of the game than other people. There are many others that can boast just as a high win record such as yourself, but you seem to always manage to mention it when the others do not. It's funny that these people play in more tourneys and events nationally than you...something to think about. Just to clear things up. As an aside. I got nothing against you personally Ed (most of your posts are very informative), but some of your last statements make you sound like a total jag. Capt K

mauleed, just so we're clear, your points are:

a. Flight is better because you've used it and we should trust you because you are the greatest player EVAR.

b. Your form of debate revolves around beating a person to death with words rather than admit the smallest possibility that you are wrong.

c. You are such a great gamer that you need not head outside of your area to prove it even though the meta game just might be higher in other places.

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page.

@ Snoogums: (sarcasm) yeah rolling 3 dice and doubling the highest is really going to stop you from making a charge. What's the average dice roll on 3 dice again?(sarcasm off) Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/06/2006 12:52 PM
@ Snoogums: (sarcasm) yeah rolling 3 dice and doubling the highest is really going to stop you from making a charge. What's the average dice roll on 3 dice again?(sarcasm off) Capt K

Why are you charging through cover instead of just jumping over the cover? Oh because you took speed.

It depends on how you are attacking, and as you guys are still firm believers in always charging we cannot convince you that sometimes it is better to jump somewhere out of open shooting to use a deadly ranged attack up close. If they charge your prince then he goes at the same time or first, still killing their powerfist first. If they don't charge he can just hop around and harass them. If you have the D speed you have to run over terrain to charge in most cases and will not get any great benefit out of it if you are charging into cover all the time. Now if your opponent sits between buildings in the open all of the time sure the speed could be better if you don't use WoC, otherwise you will just be wasting your 12" charge anyway if you are that close.

Obviously this only becomes apparent when you play it, have you played flight as much as speed or are you just going off your happiness you get from speed already?

@Mahu:

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mauleed, just so we're clear, your points are:

a. Flight is better because you've used it and we should trust you because you are the greatest player EVAR.

Actually, I never made a point. I just assumed we all knew that a model who moves 12" and has a flamer template kills alot more models with that template than a model who moves 6".

b. Your form of debate revolves around beating a person to death with words rather than admit the smallest possibility that you are wrong.

No, by the time I beat you up with words I've stopped debating, and merely killing time by pointing out your folly.

c. You are such a great gamer that you need not head outside of your area to prove it even though the meta game just might be higher in other places.

Correct.

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@Snoogums: Firstly, who said anything about charging through cover? That was brought up by someone else.The original discussion was about using WoC by positioning and the mobility required to do so. Speed does it better and safer for the Prince. The whole charging issue arose from what to do if you don't want to/ can't use the template weapon or if you want the fleet move (which ignores terrain). The other factors are that models holed up in a building provide more resistance to WoC than you think. Mahu illustrated that perfectly, yet everyone missed it. You can only target the level you are on, or one level above/ below you. So by spreading your units between floors reduces the WoC effectiveness since it won't catch as many models. In that situation, having the Prince charging is preferable. Do you follow the line of thinking now? If you feel that staying in the open "harassing" units with a template weapon over and over again is better be my guest. The prince will die faster to shooting then. Capt K

Winterman Wrote:First, a MEq fist needs 4's to hit a DP. So any squad with a fist will need to be thined out before you even think of assaulting, as three rounds of fist attacks will likely do him in (and one round there's 5/6 chance of giving up half VPs). Hence the use of WoC pre charge. Mahu was incorrect in that instance, yes you need 4's to hit a prince. However, most likely the prince is killing enough models in the assault for it to seldom be a problem. I find it unlikely that any squad with a fist will be in combat for 3 rounds against a Statured Prince. Again, regarding the WoC shot before the charge is risky for several reasons. First the opponent can space the targeted unit over several levels to stop the effectiveness of WoC. Secondly it could potentially eliminate the chances of getting and assault if the player removes the models in a way which makes the DT roll risky (may not reach). Speed doesn't have to worry as much. If you can position yourself in the early parts of the game to later take shots before you charge, most likely a close combat will happen. If the model with speed is close enough to shoot, he is easily within charge distance. Once more we've been establishing that all CoD games save for one, do not use VP's so having the Prince get wounded or even die is irrelevent. He is there to win the battle of attrition.

c. You are such a great gamer that you need not head outside of your area to prove it even though the meta game just might be higher in other places. Correct. Again...It's comments like this that make me laugh. Get over yourself Ed. Capt K

I find it unlikely that any squad with a fist will be in combat for 3 rounds against a Statured Prince.

Without thinning them prior? A basic MoT prince will kill about 3 MEqs on the charge and a bit less in subsequent rounds. That means an 8 man squad ties up the prince for three rounds and the fist gets two rounds of action. If he's a loyalist sgt that's 1.66 wounds. Plus you've got around 6-12 basic attacks for those two rounds that comes close to covering the remaining .33 wound. Also note he's winning combat in his own turn, which isn't ideal.

Now hit them with WoC prior to charging.  Kill atleast 2 guys and on average you'd eliminate the fist before he strikes in the second round, save yourself a wound and end the assault in your opponets turn.

The key is patience. Flight gives you more average movement prior to the charge and more verstaility in how you move (immpassible terrain, models, etc). Why rush out for a charge with speed when you can wait an extra turn to set up the shoot and charge and still have wounds left to be a serious threat to other units.

Once more we've been establishing that all CoD games save for one, do not use VP's so having the Prince get wounded or even die is irrelevent. He is there to win the battle of attrition.

True on the Vps thing but it was a minor point. However, I think my point above illustrates why WoC (and indirecty d. flight) is a great way for a MoT prince to win the battle of attrition.

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 07/06/2006 2:07 PM
c. You are such a great gamer that you need not head outside of your area to prove it even though the meta game just might be higher in other places. Correct. Again...It's comments like this that make me laugh. Get over yourself Ed. Capt K

Or, conversely, you could come to my area and show me how great you are.

But if the Metagame in your area is such that giving flamer templates to guys moving 6" a turn is a good move, it's probably not worth the effort for either of us.

I think this is at least partially a philosophical debate over the use of ICs in CoD. Do you simply have them wade in or do you preserve them for the endgame? Moreover, what style works better within the context of Ed's 1KSons army?

Personally, I'd rather have that resource available in the late turns if I can help it. That's when city games (and indeed most objective games) are won and lost, in my experience.

However, context is important. If you're talking about my Tyranid army, my Hive Tyrant can be an effective guided missile since I can probably support his charge with Gaunts or other units, which can extend its lifespan. In a 1KSons army, I just envision the Prince charging in unassisted and getting beaten down by PFs. Sure, you could hold the Prince back until you really need it. But then isn't that what Ed is doing in the first place?

Frankly, I dunno if I'd even bother with WoC if the unit was going to be designated for guided missile duty.

I'm trying to figure out how Speed helps the mobility of a flamer/shooting attack at all?

I mean, you move 6" with speed. Then you charge 12". But that charge is after the shooting phase.

So why is it better than flight? The best argument I can see is that you get up there with speed on the second or third turn, and can then move around, but I can't see how that is better than being able to move 12" all the time.

You spend your first turns fleeting, which means you are moving 7" to 12" a turn not just 6". Then on that one magic turn, you move up to the building, flame the hell out of it and charge.

Of course nobody has addressed the idea of a squad entirely on the third level. Oops, to bad flamer man.

The demonic flight guy could just fly up there.

@winterman: you are assuming that the unit isn't going to break. A Monsterous creature counts as 10 models, plus visage = squad breaking unless they have some mysterious way of staying in combat. Furthermore, why is this rushing off to fight in close combat bit constantly keep popping up? I thought the idea was to manuever to WoC units and charging was a healthy plan B? If you are convinced that flight is better try it out and see if it works against a variety of opponents in a variety of scenarios. I still maintain that speed is superior overall. Capt K

Posted By snooggums on 07/06/2006 3:53 PM
The demonic flight guy could just fly up there.

How? If the third level is covered by a unit, you couldn't get to the third nor the second level, unless your DP was less that 2" tall. You still can't come within 1" of a unit you are not charging, even in the city. At least speed give you a good chance of charging the third level.

Mauleed Wrote: "Or, conversely, you could come to my area and show me how great you are." But if the Metagame in your area is such that giving flamer templates to guys moving 6" a turn is a good move, it's probably not worth the effort for either of us." If there was a big enough event beyond a standard RTT and doesn't conflict with other events I attend, sure, why not? Unlike you, I don't toot my horn about how great I am nor do I use it as a way to legitmize a point of view. However, I have been to enough events and played against enough top tier players to know that the Almighty Ed Maule, for all his victories, when placed in an event with the lot of these guys is just another great player. Nothing more, nothing less. Is there any event in the upper East Coast that brings that much national attention? We have the Necronomicon down here in Orlando in a few weeks a 40k indy GT will be running then. Other than the now defunct Baltimore GT, is there anything large in your neck of the woods? Actually the Metagame in my area is as such that the thought of taking a TS army at all is funny as hell. Most people here play Slaneesh (me included) or some form of Uber Undivided. Capt K

@winterman: you are assuming that the unit isn't going to break. A Monsterous creature counts as 10 models, plus visage = squad breaking unless they have some mysterious way of staying in combat.

I did think about breaking but thought I'd keep the discussion brief. That just complicates the issue, because then you're looking at all the various moral rules involved (fearlessness, ATSKNF, Rite of Battle, etc.) and the implications of when they actually break. All in all its about an equal chance regardless of which movement you use so its kinda moot.

Now, there is something I missed that can be considered. What if the squad breaks before you charge from 25% casualties from WoC. That has some good and bad implications, both of which simply require some forthought when setting up your movement (ie if they do break he's not in LOS of every gun in the opponets army).

Hey, d. speed is great, especially on a beatstick prince. The problem is Tzeentch princes can't be uber tooled for assault like other princes. Infact, you are paying for the ability to use psychic powers so it makes sense to tool him up in a way that makes full use of that ability. D. flight is superior to d speed in this regard.

"I'm trying to figure out how Speed helps the mobility of a flamer/shooting attack at all? I mean, you move 6" with speed. Then you charge 12". But that charge is after the shooting phase. So why is it better than flight? The best argument I can see is that you get up there with speed on the second or third turn, and can then move around, but I can't see how that is better than being able to move 12" all the time." You are on the right track Snoogums. What makes the speed better is that you are not in the open while moving nor will you end up on the short end of the stick on assaults. And you have the option to move faster in the open...if you want to Capt K

I have found that speed is better in open games IF it is melee. Its not hard to grasp that a 12 inch charge is WASTED if you dont have to charge that far.

Flight gives mobility where Speed gives charging distance and fleet if you need it. Sure speed will give over all better distance closing to HTH but flight would do better with the use of a flamer. The flamer template is slightly more than 6 inches. So you fly in, toast em and fly away. No waddle and then shoot. It seems more flexibility in CoD to me.

Speed wins in open combat but CoD is not the same animal as 40k cleanse missions.

How? If the third level is covered by a unit, you couldn't get to the third nor the second level, unless your DP was less that 2" tall. You still can't come within 1" of a unit you are not charging, even in the city. At least speed give you a good chance of charging the third level.

I know that coherency is measured from the top of a model to the base in CoD but is that also the case for the no enemy in 1" rule?

We have the Necronomicon down here in Orlando in a few weeks a 40k indy GT

Actually, it's next week.

CaptK, learn the use of the carriage return. Learn it and love it. I showed it to my kids last week and it makes their posts much more readable.

I wouldn't exactly call the Necro a big 40k event. It's a big fantasy event with a ~30 person RTT next to it. Amd I still bet you don't go undefeated at it. (make sure to report back) So pardon me if I'm not jumping on a plane to go down there and smack you around. And if I did, I'd play fantasy anyway.

But if I did show up at any big 40k event, and you were expecting me to show up with sons, you'd be very disappointed. As I said, this is for a friendly vogen campaign league.

Regardless, you're still claiming that speed on a guy with a flamer template makes sense, and I'm just not seeing it. Perhaps it does on your slaaneshi prince, who is designed for hth. But this thread did have "Thousand sons" prominently in the title, so I assumed we were all aware I wasn't taking the mark of Slaanesh on anything.

The only difference between a Mark of Slaneesh DP with Speed and WoC and a Thousand Son DP with Speed and WoC is that a Thousand Son DP passes the PT automatically.

The only difference between a Mark of Slaneesh DP with Speed and WoC and a Thousand Son DP with Speed and WoC is that a Thousand Son DP passes the PT automatically.

No differences? So combat drugs, warp scream, free sorcery for MoT and siren aren't differences? Those are all considerations when setting up a prince.

The point is with MoS you can make a really cheap mofo of a close combat prince. That is where speed makes sense, CoD or not. For Tzeench, your mark is giving you the ability to take psychic powers and doesn't offer anything special in the beatstick department. So play to your strength and make full use of those powers.

Well, if I knew this thread would be getting this much fun I would have spoken up earlier. Also, if you have to take Thousand Sons to the Adepticon to be taken seriously, look at my sig (And the only reason why I did so poorly is because most of the missions had things like objectives, and with only 5 scoring units, that was a problem even though I beat the crap out of them in victory points).

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And I am going to say flight is better than speed. It is late, and I don?t want to explain why, but I will say a little bit about it.

 

With Flight you are always moving 12?. Not only that, but unlike Speed, you can move 12? and shoot compared to the 6? with Speed. With the longer move, it lets you move into the best firing position to maximize casualties from WoC. When you are only moving 6? it is almost impossible to get WoC off. If you are that close, you are either getting charged, or something is shooting a butt load of plasma at you, or something else unpleasant has happened. If not, the closest models will be running for their lives.

 

Here is one thing that speed has over flight. If you don?t know what you are doing, you can cast WoC and kill enough models so that you kill everything within 6? leaving you out of charge range and leaving yourself up to getting shot. The way I counter it is to move so that I am within 6? of the powerfist (That is right, you heard me!). So when you do all that damage to a squad they will remove casualties, but they will never remove the powerfist, guaranteeing you are in assault range. I know that they can remove the powerfist to keep me out of assault, but I have never met a player with the balls to do it. And no, that powerfist is never a problem. How big do you see squads these days? 8 marines seem to be the largest I ever encounter. After putting the hurt on them with the WoC I charge in and I will either clear my assault zone (I run a 202 point tooled up Statured DP) or he has taken so many casualties that to preserve their precious fist I can take all the models out of b-t-b. Then I hope he stays in combat so I can kill the remainder in the next assault phase, then I fly off to do it all over again.

And Capt. K:

If you are going to copy and paste your posts from word, you need to go and do the full reply. If you paste your post into the small quick reply box it will smash all of your text up.

(And to the post above, I had 6 scoring units at Adepticon with my Thousand Sons)

 

Nice one Ed. So since you are on your high horse, you now also feel it necessary to criticize the format of my post. Wow. I don?t know whether or not to laugh, or make a joke about compensation for a lack of something. Realize that when I make these posts, it?s at work and usually typed quickly since my work deserves a little more attention than the posts here, plus the fact I am using a Mac at work may have something to do with it. In the reply area, it doesn't display all the editing options that I have on my PC at home. Ah, not a big event eh? I guess the organizers would disagree with you on that. And by the way, the 40k tournament is slotted for 40 players not 30 and is in GT format. Even though that may not seem large, recognize that it is the first year they are offering it, and by my estimation it will surpass the fantasy tournament numbers in the future. Additionally what ?big events? do you have in your region? There is none that I am aware of. As far as going undefeated?who cares? Again I am not the one that is boasting about their win record?you are. Besides, how long are you going to cling onto that achievement Ed? It?s been what, 2 years now? Really. Nobody cares any more. How about you win an Overall? Better yet, win multiple Overalls for both fantasy and 40k. Again, you boast a great win record, but at the end of the day you are in the same league with many other great players on this forum and elsewhere. As for using TS in a Friendly Campaign, I understand that. I realize full well that there is no way in hell you?d bring TS to a big 40k event. Why you think that I would expect that is strange. Yes that is my opinion and you disagree. Great. We agree to disagree. My opinion is based on actual play and experience and not assumptions. You feel that flight is better. Great. Take flight. Obviously you feel you are right. If you feel so strongly about it, then why make a post asking for people?s opinions about it if you feel you know that you have the Ultimo Combo?? As for the subject heading, yeah I realize that it was for TS Princes?but speed is great for any Prince with a mark. The only Prince that doesn?t need it is Glaive Prince. Capt K

@Blackmoor: I don't use the quick reply, nor do I type my responses in Word, then paste. I use the standard reply. I think the formating of my posts may have more to do with my computer than anything else. When I post at home I have no problems. When I post at work it bunches it together...all of these posts were done from work. Anyhoo, back to designing graphics for NASCAR... Capt K