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Rampaging Carnifex





I really am boggled at how you got to 91 posts
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




What do you mean by that?
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Posted By burnthexenos on 08/26/2006 6:39 PM
What do you mean by that?

He means that the mods should have realized by now that you're a troll.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

In some of the threads he's actually funny, because he takes it sufficiently over the top that it's easy to spot the joke.

In others he's not quite as obvious, and the trolling is more effective (and thus more offensive).

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I have never been joking in any of my threads. I was trying to show the idiots the rules in the 6 dreadnought army list thread, and im saying Necrons are cheese here. What is so odd about that?
   
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

You're funny when you're obvious enough for people to get the joke.

You can be a good poster in regular discussions if you feel like it (such as in the Grey Knights thread in the Army Lists forum).

Other times you are clearly trolling and annoying people, which is bad for the board. I'm asking you to stick to the regular discussion posts and the funny stuff. Trolling is bad for the board, and deleting your posts takes time and attention on behalf of the mods, which could be better spent reading cool posts or (gods forbid) working at our actual jobs.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

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Regular Dakkanaut




But there is no joke! 6 Dreads is illegal, shooty Grey Knights are not effective, and everything on my list in the other thread is cheese!
   
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Sslimey Sslyth




Oh, by all that is holy in any and all lands, countries, beliefs, creeds and religions, could someone please go ahead and ban this guy?

In all honesty, has any one single post of his had any merit whatsoever? This statement that it is "humorous" would be all fine and dandy, if he didn't take it to the Nth degree.

His presence is making me reconsider even using this website, as any thread he adds to devolves into pointless bickering.

Sal.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



California

Saldiven, please don't leave. I'm sure the mother of burnthexenos will soon discover that their teen-angst filled son (burnthexenos for those not following) has infected the computer with thousands of spywares programs from his online-porn escapades. I'm fairly sure he will be banned from the computer from said mother.

Chuck

"I know what hearsay is, I do not know what a federal librarian is as I am not American and to me a librarian is a person who helps you find books and then returns them back to their shelves or stacks at night (so your credentials do not awe me, and do not impress me" -
IG fan 
   
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RogueSangre





The Cockatrice Malediction

burnthexenos is like the 40k version of Stephen Colbert.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 08/28/2006 2:08 AM
burnthexenos is like the 40k version of Stephen Colbert.

No.  Colbert is funy.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I think it's Chaplain Vang, back to haunt us.

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Dives with Horses

...

Drano doesn't exactly scream "toy" to me.

engine

 
   
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Been Around the Block




Necrons are weak at ranges above 24 and less than 12.  Over 24 you are shooting with destroyers only, which aren't really tough enough nor hidable enough for their points to win lascannon duels in v4.  At under 12, you are in assault range.  That's a scary place to be with an army with easily snipeable melee units and low initiative. 

The weak bands are compounded by a fairly slow army on the whole.  Moving the mass of the army isn't easy, and Necrons tend towards a lack of agility due to mass infantry.  What does this mean? 

Fast moving, assault armies are a problem.  The Necrons have troubles keeping the range open, have bigger troubles winning assaults, and suffer from an instant 'I Lose' trigger that becomes a bigger problem the more points you spend on your mobility options.

Stationary, long range shooty armies are also a problem.  The Necrons have trouble closing the range under 24 before taking at least some casualties.  Thier army structure means that high firepower models are concentrated in their own units rather than dispersed with bulletcatchers, and yet those high firepower models do not have the toughness levels of Terminators nor the shooting power of the ACs they carry.  Once they get to 24, their firepower isn't that much greater than the army on the other side and the Necrons can't punch MEQs.  Against Guard, they'll slaughter infantry but only a veil suicide squad, a DS Monolith, or destroyers can reasonably hope to silence the ordinance.   Now, trying to outshoot Necrons is a horrible grindfest.  But it can be done.

Then there is the list itself.  IT suffers from the Eldar problem, a number of units just totally suck or are outshown by close competitors.  Pariahs just suck.  So do flayed ones.  Wraths tend to be outperformed by Scarabs in CC, and even the Scarabs tend to underperform against skilled opponents as they are very easy to kill.  Tomb Spiders tend to get shot early, and don't do much you can't manage with good deployment unless you get them in assault.  Heavy Destroyers solve a number of problems, those of 2+ armor, T4 multiwound targets, and AV 12+.  But Heavy Ds are excellent targets and very vulnerable in v4's LOS rules, and are one of the most expensive 1 wound models in existance.  What about Gauss, you ask?  Remember that it takes 9 shots to get a glance, and it's hard to do significant damage with a glance.  You do usually silence the tank for a round, but only 3 viable models can do so at ranges above 18 and of those 3 only 1 isn't fairly easy to kill.  Heavy and Normal Ds and Immortals, and the Ds ALWAYS get shot first.  So trying to kill those max range Russes isn't easy
   
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Rampaging Carnifex





Immortals have a 30" effective range.

Scarabs tie up assault squads forever.

Veils and monoliths fix mobility as well as assault.

Long range shootie armies without 15+ heavy weapons will never outshoot necrons. Even then it's questionable unless each gun is a lascannon.

I'll agree with the last paragraph, however.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




I think a common problem with Necrons is that they often don't appeal to more experienced players, so you don't have very advanced strategists piloting them.

Example being my friend. We played 2000 pts. Tau v Crons. I had one small unit of XV25, Shadowsun, a XV8 command squad, another XV8 team, a couple sniper drone teams, and two squads of fire warriors.

His problem was that he spread his forces too thin. I utilized the jump packs pretty well to stay out of range of his Pariahs and Lord. When the time came, I sent the stealth armor forward, and he chased it like and idiot with Nightbringer, a Flayed One squad, and something like 5 or 6 Wraiths. He slaughtered the stealth, only to turn around and watch his C'tan go up in a hail of melta and plasma fire. It exploded, and killed everything around it. I lost the XV25 team to take out around 700 pts of Crons.

You can even tell by the unit choices he's none too keen on optimal listings.
He also doesn't know who Sun Tzu is - thought he was a Tau commander.

My point is, people like this are the norm for Crons. If you know what you're doing, they can be pretty effective, just like any other army.
   
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Posted By TheGrog on 09/04/2006 11:15 PM
Necrons are weak at ranges above 24 and less than 12.  Over 24 you are shooting with destroyers only, which aren't really tough enough nor hidable enough for their points to win lascannon duels in v4.  At under 12, you are in assault range.  That's a scary place to be with an army with easily snipeable melee units and low initiative. 

The weak bands are compounded by a fairly slow army on the whole.  Moving the mass of the army isn't easy, and Necrons tend towards a lack of agility due to mass infantry.  What does this mean? 

Fast moving, assault armies are a problem.  The Necrons have troubles keeping the range open, have bigger troubles winning assaults, and suffer from an instant 'I Lose' trigger that becomes a bigger problem the more points you spend on your mobility options.

Stationary, long range shooty armies are also a problem.  The Necrons have trouble closing the range under 24 before taking at least some casualties.  Thier army structure means that high firepower models are concentrated in their own units rather than dispersed with bulletcatchers, and yet those high firepower models do not have the toughness levels of Terminators nor the shooting power of the ACs they carry.  Once they get to 24, their firepower isn't that much greater than the army on the other side and the Necrons can't punch MEQs.  Against Guard, they'll slaughter infantry but only a veil suicide squad, a DS Monolith, or destroyers can reasonably hope to silence the ordinance.   Now, trying to outshoot Necrons is a horrible grindfest.  But it can be done.

Then there is the list itself.  IT suffers from the Eldar problem, a number of units just totally suck or are outshown by close competitors.  Pariahs just suck.  So do flayed ones.  Wraths tend to be outperformed by Scarabs in CC, and even the Scarabs tend to underperform against skilled opponents as they are very easy to kill.  Tomb Spiders tend to get shot early, and don't do much you can't manage with good deployment unless you get them in assault.  Heavy Destroyers solve a number of problems, those of 2+ armor, T4 multiwound targets, and AV 12+.  But Heavy Ds are excellent targets and very vulnerable in v4's LOS rules, and are one of the most expensive 1 wound models in existance.  What about Gauss, you ask?  Remember that it takes 9 shots to get a glance, and it's hard to do significant damage with a glance.  You do usually silence the tank for a round, but only 3 viable models can do so at ranges above 18 and of those 3 only 1 isn't fairly easy to kill.  Heavy and Normal Ds and Immortals, and the Ds ALWAYS get shot first.  So trying to kill those max range Russes isn't easy


Umm.  No.

Crons can be very mobile, and assaulty armies have a hard time doing damage, as the Crons stay in combat for one turn before popping back and rapid firing the assaulters.

Crons problems are armies with lots of 2+ saves or MCs and lots of firepower.
Namely, Iron Warriors, Terminator heavy and Godzilla nids.


   
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Rampaging Carnifex





Well said, Happy. I'll go along with that. High toughness 2+ saves especially. Carnifexes aren't so bad unless they're T7 with 2+ saves, which very few people run. Immortals will kill consistently beat carnifexes in gunfights.

It's with the flying Tyrant and when your opponent runs T7 2+ save regenerating 5 wound carnifexes (that's me ) that you start to have problems.

Obliterators are a huge problem for Necrons, since they can't instakill them. Scarabs can wrap them up for a very long time though (at least a few turns).

Termies are bad times too.
   
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Been Around the Block




The hidden powerfists in most assault units worth talking about laugh at Scarabs, who are also fairly easy to gun down if the opponent thinks they might be a threat.  They are far from a serious assault unit, just the best Necrons can field.  I thought Oblits would just form PFs and squick them in 2 rounds or so?

The lack of mobility in the Necron army comes from the general necesity of clustering around rez orbs, which can only be in 2 places in a normal game, and the slow movements of the Monolith.  The army is highly predictable, and the units that might fill the role of the SM landspeeder, Destroyers, are more vulnerable to enemy HW fire.  Furthermore, you can't move more than 2 non-jetbike units a turn by veil and portal without dual Monoliths, and the portal is really just a local redeploy most times.  Put more simply, it's really easy to throw a unit or two out there.  It's a lot harder to keep it from getting chopped off and properly supporting it.

As for assault, the portal isn't such a perfect defense against a canny assault player as many think.  Even with rerolled WBB Necron units can't DO anything substantial in assault except for the specialized melee units, most of which are snipeable, slow, or both.  Aside from those that just suck.  Even then, you portal and rapid fire.  That hail of gauss fire isn't going to accomplish so much against MEQs unless you are shooting with Immortals.  The key to beating portal tricks is assaulting many units and forking the portal, putting the most damage on the unit he least wants to portal.

Armor is a critical problem for Necrons.  They have so few ways around even a 3+, and depend on saturation fire.  I hate 2+ saves.  Multiwound models are the same way, so few instant killing weapons.

And it is quite possible to be outshot as Necrons in v4, but it does take Ordinance to do so for IG.  Destoyers suffer from the IG HW squad problem.  Target #1, no questions asked, so they die first.  And that leaves just Immortals and Warriors, and the range loss does a lot to equalize things. 
   
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There are lots of things in lots of armies that are target #1. How do they get away with not having them die? Cover, mobility and screening.
One of those works just as well for Destroyers as they do for any other unit. They are very good at the mobility option (including 24" turboboosts that give them an invulnerable save and position them nicely to hit back rank units)

Destroyers and Immortals both have no need, or next to no need to sit within range of a rez orb, unless already in close combat.

Armies featuring Destroyers and Immortals over Warriors are becoming much more common. They have a lower Phase Out, but they are much harder to kill.

Necrons are a tough and good army. They just aren't competitive in the tournament scene due to being unable to effectively fight some armies, and not usually being able to get massacres.
   
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Well, let me start out by saying I've played Necrons for close to 2 years.  I play somewhat infrequently. 

I feel like the necrons are extremely tough for novice-intermediate players to face.  It seems to me that when you play against really experienced, quality generals, that the necrons weaknesses are too easily exploitable UNLESS you field an over the top army, which I never really like to do. 

That being said, they are a fun amry.  Monoliths are awesomly fun.  Immortals are my favorite units in my army.  Scarabs are tremendously cool.  I have had units of these little guys take out entire longfang and devestator squads.  Enemies are often amazed at what the little buggers can do.  They, like tomb spyders can stand a chance against any opponen t with ws 4 or lower.  Once you hit ws5 they hit on 5's and their chances of doing anything goes down a lot.

Tomb spyders were VERY cool untill the stupid mixed toughness rules RUINED them.  Now if you make 1 scarab then the t6 spyder gets wounded as t3!  When they fix that I'm buying 2 more Tomb spyders with claw (I hate shooty spyders.  hitting on a 5+ doesn't do it for me.  In cc they still hit on 4's at up to ws 4) 

2+ armor saves are the bane of my existance.  I hate em.  carnifexes and terminators just never seem to die.  Massed fire doesn't really work well for me.  In the case of terminators, a lord with destroyer body, phase shifter and warscythe does.  He has taken out as many as 6 GK termies solo   That was a great day. 

I am not a fan of destroyers much.  They are too easily shot for my tastes.  And they are expensive. 

On paper, pariahs look good.  In practice, I don't think there is a single unit in the game they go toe to toe with and earn their points back on average (ok, that is probably not true, but how often do they get into cc with devestators).  They can't attack enough to kill hordes.  They get killed by elite cc before they can do their damage.   Even powerfist termis, who they seem DESIGNED to kill, come out on top on average just based on number of attacks.  Granted they seem like a countercharge unit.  If you send them into a melee with whatever just charged your warriors, they can swing a tide.  But guess what.  I'd rather just pull the warriors out of cc and rapid fire whatever was getting me down.  In this case immortals are better in every way.  More surviveable (same t, same save, but have wbb), same shooting for less points. 

Against shooty armies I have found flayed ones to be good, or at least worth taking. 

Wraiths have always seemed like tremendous underperformers to me.  They are as vulnerable as a 3 man squad of marines to small arms fire.  They are fast, but I have found that when they hit cc they don't pack enough of a punch to do anything unless combined with lots of scarabs or a destroyer lord.  And in just about any case I'd rather have equivalent points worth of scarabs.  If they gave them rending, I'd be happy with them.  It even makes sense fluffwise.  These things can phase out, but they can't get through armor? 

Overall a fun army.  Far from undefeatable unless run in an extreme fashion (read 30 immortals 2 monoliths and tons of warriors.) 

 

I would LOVE to see how that necron player took out godzilla nids.  there is not a single ary in the game I'd like to face less.  Big nids have been the bane of my necrons existence. 

   
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Colorado

They are a tyinhg army. In other words its hard to beat them, but they are also hard pressed to win. They win small or loose small.

NoTurtlesAllowed.blogspot.com 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Florida

Necrons excell against the armies mainly with low armorsaves and/or low toighness. Their mobility is something to be desired out of their regular troops and the lack of ATSKNF really brutalizes them when they lose combat and get run down.

In my experience playing against them, their main tactical strength becomes a weakness as usually I can pile on 2-3 squads and force them to break and run them down and with the typical phalanx formation just consolidate into the other 2 units.

C'Tan are nifty for counter charge but rarely make their points back.

like Darkness has said, they usually win small or lose small but what really does hurt them above all is the phaseout rule. Destroyers rock but they can easily be targeted and shot down and even with WBB you can kill all the destroyers within 6 inches and they wont be coming back anytime soon.

  besides probably the worse matchup ever for necrons is vs necrons. I have seen that game and its probably the least entertaining even if you pit two decent people its just one of those games you hate to play.

Comparing tournament records is another form of e-peen measuring.
 
   
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Posted By thehod on 10/04/2006 6:02 PM
Necrons excell against the armies mainly with low armorsaves and/or low toighness. Their mobility is something to be desired out of their regular troops and the lack of ATSKNF really brutalizes them when they lose combat and get run down.

In my experience playing against them, their main tactical strength becomes a weakness as usually I can pile on 2-3 squads and force them to break and run them down and with the typical phalanx formation just consolidate into the other 2 units.

C'Tan are nifty for counter charge but rarely make their points back.

like Darkness has said, they usually win small or lose small but what really does hurt them above all is the phaseout rule. Destroyers rock but they can easily be targeted and shot down and even with WBB you can kill all the destroyers within 6 inches and they wont be coming back anytime soon.

  besides probably the worse matchup ever for necrons is vs necrons. I have seen that game and its probably the least entertaining even if you pit two decent people its just one of those games you hate to play.
I'm real curious to see the next Necron codex.
In 2009.
   
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Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Posted By thehod on 10/04/2006 6:02 PM
  besides probably the worse matchup ever for necrons is vs necrons. I have seen that game and its probably the least entertaining even if you pit two decent people its just one of those games you hate to play.

Deathwing versus Necrons is pretty bad too.  A lot of walking and shooting and slugging it out on ranged fire with high toughness low armor save models. 

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Regular Dakkanaut




So far OrbLord, Immortas and Liths seem to be a good survivable foundation of an army, that provides decent shooting. You just need something to kill 2+ saves and deal with opposing close combat specialists...

C tan anyone? Especially Deciever?


A guy has won a major tourney with a Deciever, so that choice cant be all bad in practice.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




No. The deciever is far and away the better choice among ctan. It can go to to toe with basically anything but a nightbringer.

But, those cc units which stand a chance of killing it, such a genestealers or large groups of other massive cc monsters or like thunderhammers don't get the chance cause he can leave cc and leave the unit tied up! He can pin. Doesn't his description say that even fearless units are vulnerable to this?

His deployment ability is invaluable. I'll start off by deploying my monolith here. You, being worried about the stupid thing deploy your heavy weapons and tank hunting capability to counter this threat. Only it is not o be. The monolith is actually on the complete opposite end of the deployment zone.

You can also do things like sticking a tomb spyder as far up in the deployment zone as possible to push back the enemy only to bring the little guy back with the rest of your army after deployment. This works with heavy destroyers and monolith as well, but people are generally less believing when they see the a destroyer out in open sight way out in fromnt of your army just asking to be killed first turn.

And he's still a ctan. He can deal with all the stupid crap the rest of your troops can't.

What do you loose with the deciever vs the nightbringer?

a 24" lascannon.
1 strength. Doesn't mean anything except against wraithlords and vehicles, and you still shouldn't have problems with either if you're in cc with them. Though, who knows about new Wraithlords.
You loose some silly melee thing which only affects units with low str models. It's nice to keep him from being tied up b cheap crappy troops, but the deciever can't be tied up by anything.

I forget, the deciever has one less attack maybe. This can be a little bit of a deal because he still needs to cause wounds and he can only ever cause 80% as much.

He gains some awesome unexpected deployment tricks which are really demoralizing to the enemy and, used properly, can be VERY powerfull. He gains the ability, instead of a half range lascannon to do some wierd mind thing were he stops squads from doing anything. I really wish I remembered how this works. Do they need to fail a ld test? If so, then the power is probably slightly worse than the deciever attack (although for the difference in prices you could just buy a heavy destroyer and then you have your full range lasconnon in addition to the pinning thing)

I like the deciever better than the nightbringer because, while being less of a cc BEAST, he is a cc beast nonetheless. However, he offers lots of support in ways the nightbringer can't and cannot be ignored the way nighty can. He will hurt you can you absolutely cannot tie him down anywhere or in any way. If he mills around in your phalynx, enemies are going to be a lot less willing to run down and cc you to death like they were gonna. And he can pull out of cc like the rest of your necron units to allow you to rapid fire whatever is there to oblivion.

MAn. After talking about this baddie, I think I'm gonna field a deciever based army at my next competitive game.

   
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I don't think anyone debates that the Deceiver is a much better choice than the Nightbringer
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




True, but wheter he is a good competitive choice is much more difficult. I don't know. 300 pts is a lot, but the cc factor he adds plus all his cool abilities seem worth it. Just hope ya don't go up against many sniper rifles I think in an army with a ctan a unit or two of scarabs just to hit sniper troops may be a necessity.
   
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Nervous Accuser




Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Plus, any way you cut it, that 300 points can typically make a Necron army much more efective in terms of more bodies that will count against phase out, or towards a Monolith or a few other combinations that make the army more survivable than the dirty tricks and toughness of the Deciever.

It's a pretty model, and I have one, but that's just too many points to tie up for most games under 2500.

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